Fermaid O in cider

[FunkyMunk]

Does anyone have a ballpark estimate for the amount of Fermaid O to use as nutrient per gallon of cider? I realize that a specific measure will depend on the gravity, the nitrogen requirements of the yeast (I'm using Wyeast Cider 4766 FWIW), etc. I have been using it in mead, and there are lots of calculators online for that (e.g. TOSNA 2.0), just thought it would be useful in a cider as well, but haven't been able to find any information for this. I decided worst case, I would use 1/2 the amount recommended for mead at my gravity, for a medium nitrogen requirement yeast.

 

[madscientist451]

Don't use any nutrient in cider. You want to slow down the fermentation, not speed it up.
Try to keep the temp on the cool side.
The exception to this would be if you are using an apple/yeast combination that throws a lot of sulfur smells and taste.
But that's just my 2 cents, with the apples you can get, maybe using nutrient will work for you.

 

[FunkyMunk]

Yeah, I've never used nutrient in cider before; my one entry to a competition got a comment about a slight sulfur taste (it still got a 45), which prompted me to think about nutrient. Your comment is in line with my previous thinking, though; I'm aware that some (many?) traditional cider makers purposely limit nutrient for the reasons you describe, although I've read many comments on these forums that are in favor of nutrients for limiting sulfur. I guess one approach is to use it in more of a reactionary manner to reduce sulfur, but otherwise to avoid it.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

I use yeast nutrient/energizer in all my ciders. I like to keep the yeast healthy & happy so they'll do an awesome job for me. I find it best to follow the directions on the pkg.
Regards, GF.

 

[Maylar]

Mead has less nutrients than cider, and the higher ABV requires organic nitrogen if you want to feed the yeast after 9%. We don't have that problem with cider.

Regular yeast nutrient or even DAP work fine in cider. About 200 ppm DAP is enough to prevent SO2 at 65°F. If you can ferment in the 50's you can omit the nutrient.

 

[ten80]

I've had zero sulfur from D47, 71B, and S-04 yeasts using no nutrient additions. All fermented below 60F and as low as the mid 40s.

I did use S-58 Belgian yeast once and that turned into a horrible sulfur bomb... 8 months later and it's still sitting in a keg that I vent periodically.

 

[FunkyMunk]

Thanks all for the advice. I decided not to use nutrient, and it's around 56-58 and fermenting happily, doesn't smell overly sulfurous. May turn the temp down a bit. The cider I made last year that came out really good was actually in the mid 30s for a good part of fermentation (same yeast), and the aroma was amazing, so I guess that supports the idea of keeping it cooler.

Curious why yeast would produce SO2 at higher temps but not lower. Could the nutrient requirements be lower, as the yeast are less active? Either way, I get that fewer aromatics would be driven off at lower temps which is why it's desirable (unless there are other reasons as well).

Another thing to note, this batch has a TON of sediment already (~4 gallons out of ~7), due to being the very bottom of the tank when I picked up the juice. I'm not sure what that will do to the cider sitting on top of it this whole time. Would it be better to get it off the sediment (gross lees?) earlier rather than later? I'm guessing primary fermentation could be around a month at these temps (OG 1.066). I also treated with campden 48 hours before pitching the yeast.

 

[ten80]

See below

...

Curious why yeast would produce SO2 at higher temps but not lower. Could the nutrient requirements be lower, as the yeast are less active YES? Either way, I get that fewer aromatics would be driven off at lower temps which is why it's desirable YEP.

Another thing to note, this batch has a TON of sediment already (~4 gallons out of ~7), due to being the very bottom of the tank when I picked up the juice. I'm not sure what that will do to the cider sitting on top of it this whole time. Would it be better to get it off the sediment (gross lees?) earlier rather than later? Depends on the yeast. D47 is great for long-term aging on lees, but others like 71B are not recommended by the manufacturer. I'd imagine that ale yeasts should not be left for more than 3-4 months either.

 

[TBW]

Does anyone have a ballpark estimate for the amount of Fermaid O to use as nutrient per gallon of cider? I realize that a specific measure will depend on the gravity, the nitrogen requirements of the yeast (I'm using Wyeast Cider 4766 FWIW), etc. I have been using it in mead, and there are lots of calculators online for that (e.g. TOSNA 2.0), just thought it would be useful in a cider as well, but haven't been able to find any information for this. I decided worst case, I would use 1/2 the amount recommended for mead at my gravity, for a medium nitrogen requirement yeast.

Hi FunkyMunk.
I have also tried to find an answer for this question. The best explanation I´ve found so far was at www.pricklycider.com.
They have extrapolated YAN reqirement tables from wine production (where YAN levels of at least 150 milligrams/liter is desired) down the YAN requiremens for sugar levels found in most apple ciders.
What I learned from this, is that apple ciders generally require very little yeast nutrient. Some cider makers feel that it isn´t required at all, but I use it anyway because I´ve experienced some cases of halted fermentation without it.

I live in Norway, where we use different apples than US/UK/Canada (our apples has, in general, very low sugar levels), so I had to make an equation to give me results for our low SG´s - but I found it works for all SG´s up to 1088. It is for milligrams and liters, so that may be an issue if you are using ounces and gallons. I`m not sure how to convert it into meaningful values for imperial/US, I´m afraid, so I hope this doesn´t ruin things.

The equation goes like this:
1). 1088 - your SG = X
2). 200 - (X * 5,55) = Required nutrient in milligrams/liter

I know that the apples already has some nutrient naturally in them. I do not have the equipment to measure this so I will just use the Number found from the equation - knowing that this will probably give a bit higher nutrient level in the juice than stricktly required.

Hope this could be of any help

Torbjørn