Feelin ripped off by Founders

[Evan_L]

I'd have to say that the Red's Rye - PA I discovered last year is by far my favorite ipa ever. Was sad to see them put it onto a seasonal rotation rather than year round offering. I heard somewhere it was to be able to ensure freshness...yeah I guess I could see that with the fairly large dry hop and not wanting to lose the flavor additions to sitting on a shelf.

Was stoked last week to see that it was due out this month. Stopped in to the local packy lookin for a bomber of Torpedo to enjoy after work. Beer in hand I decided to see if there was anything new around the corner and lo and behold...my holy grail of IPA...the Red's is in! Replaced the Torpedo and head back to discover that the 6 pack is two beers short! WTF, a 4 pack...what is this crappola? Meh, it is a damn good beer and it's been months...why not. At the register I find that a 4 banger is not only ... not cheaper but a buck more that what the 6-er was a year ago.

Now I can see putting out a 4 pack of say...8.5+% beer at a 6 pack price (if it's good), but to short us two beers for the same price as the 6-er last year just because it's a "limited" or seasonal offering is kinda bullshnoint. Not cool guys...not cool. To top it off, and yes I may be biased at this point, I don't think it was as good. Definitely not the grapefruitexplosion I recall....aroma was lacking too. Damn good thing there is a clone in the fermenter right now...

I guess learning to homebrew the past year has taught me that, except for the few great ones out there, commercial brews...even "craft beer", are really only good as a muse..to spur inspiration and ideas so that you can make something better or that you truly enjoy.

 

[duboman]

First off, don't go blaming the price on the brewery, there is a lot more to pricing on the retail end then just the brewery.....just sayin'

Second, why don't you just send them a nice email and ask what's up?
It's a great beer and I'm sure there is more reason to the price than simply cutting quantity and jacking price for s***ts and giggles

 

[jpalarchio]

I've read that the industry is moving a lot of product to 4-packs to try and keep things in the $10 range.

Mostly higher ABV stuff though... SN Bigfoot, Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout come to mind as changing in the last couple years. I'm not a fan of the change.

The "limited release" and "seasonal" beers seem to be the hot niche these days with some retailers using those descriptions to gouge consumers.

 

[Evan_L]

Oh don't think I don't give them some benefit of the doubt...but at $13/4pk how much is the retailer really marking up...their cost must be pretty substantial. More or less just venting it here, an email is definitely called for. I know the 3-tier and retailers carry some blame...but Founders can't be 100% innocent of the end result.

 

[IL1kebeer]

I recall Jamil saying that he regularly sees his Heretic brews substantially marked up from the price that his distributor sells it for, and there's nothing that he can do about it. Zip, zilch. If I have the time ill try to look up the podcast. I believe that it was the Brewstrong Going Pro series and it was the episode centered on distribution.

 

[benco]

I went to my local beer store that has some craft beer, actually a lot for where its at. I know the lady that orders the beer. When I walk in we start talking beer! She says Its been awhile but I got some dogfish 120! What! How much! She says only singles for 11.45 each plus tax! I said not for me! That's crazy! I've only had one that I split with my fil, it was horrible. I think it's 18%abv! Just making a comment! I know the craft beers are expensive, stick with home brew!

 

[Zamial]

Wow... Founder's beers are ALL fabulous. I seriously can not name one that I would not drink. Now we are sad they are 4 packs instead of 6ers? PffT thank the Gods they are not limited to bombers @ 10 bucks a crack like SO many others...

 

[jpalarchio]

Oh don't think I don't give them some benefit of the doubt...but at $13/4pk how much is the retailer really marking up...their cost must be pretty substantial. More or less just venting it here, an email is definitely called for. I know the 3-tier and retailers carry some blame...but Founders can't be 100% innocent of the end result.

Earlier this year there was apparently a surplus of Founders Breakfast Stout (love it!). One retailer locally, who basically brags how low their markup is, was selling 4-packs at $5.99; they had tons of it. I don't remember the details but someone blabbed on Beer Advocate that the distributor surplus sale was costing retailers around $5.20 or something like that.

Meanwhile, I started seeing more and more Breakfast Stout in the store, clearly new shipments and late in the season. The majority of retailers were still selling it anywhere from $8.99 to $11.99. Not that I expect them to pass along the savings, they have to make their money, but it goes to show that there can be a lot of factors in play behind the scenes.

 

[Calichusetts]

Time to find a better craft beer store. I saw Rubaeus for $13.99 at one of my "craft" store in town...one of the biggest in my state too! Down the street at the mom and pop shop it was $7.99. The really nice stores are moving to letting you get singles of anything, and some at amazing prices ($1-1.5) Its the one time I really like Beer advocate to locate new stores...eventually you will find one that works. Yes, prices are rising and always will. But looking around might help the sting.

 

[Weezy]

$13.50 for a 4 pack feels high and annoying, but would anyone say anything if it was a $13.50 bomber?

 

[pmcint01]

That sucks, maybe you should try to find a new favorite IPA.

 

[Hello]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a cap on what stores can charge. If someone is willing to pay it then they'll charge it. It's a shame because I'd be reluctant to pay $13+ for a 4 pack of anything.

 

[Evan_L]

That sucks, maybe you should try to find a new favorite IPA.

I did, and i'll soon have 5G of it.

Prices at this store are actually low for the area too. CT is getting ridiculous with craft prices. I wonder if the BMC is closer in price nationwide and it's the craft that mainly varies...what do you guys see 30 packs for?

 

[Homercidal]

Wow. I didn't know they were packing in 4-packs now. That sucks. I love Red's Rye, but it's pretty easy to make a reasonable clone at home too. I might have to look into this. Sounds like another company shortening the product to meet a price point. Like 14.5 ounce cans instead of the old 16 ounce cans.

You know, I might actually have to brew up a RyePA at home now that you got me thinking about it. I'm sure I've seen a recipe on here somewhere...

EDIT: Just read the announcement on the change and it kind of makes sense that they want to limit the amount to keep the shelf live short, because according to the research, the Red's Rye has the shortest shelf life along with the Harvest Ale. Not sure I agree with the decision to go to a 4-pack, but along with the change to a 4-pack comes a higher price as the packaging changes. It's can't be all that much, but they claim it's a more expensive beer to make and they've fudged the margins for years and finally decided to make it right. I expect they will be increasing the price a bit more than the cost of packaging.

After looking at the release charts I suddenly want a Breakfast Stout for breakfast!

 

[Randy_Bugger]

Buy a 4 pack of Hop Rod Rye instead. Better beer and cheaper than Founders.

 

[cwdrake]

I just checked beermenus.com and the Founders Red's RyePA is selling everywhere around Chicago in 6-packs for $9.99. I haven't looked in person to confirm, but I can't imagine all those listings would be wrong.

 

[DrunkleJon]

EDIT: Just read the announcement on the change and it kind of makes sense that they want to limit the amount to keep the shelf live short, because according to the research, the Red's Rye has the shortest shelf life along with the Harvest Ale. Not sure I agree with the decision to go to a 4-pack, but along with the change to a 4-pack comes a higher price as the packaging changes. It's can't be all that much, but they claim it's a more expensive beer to make and they've fudged the margins for years and finally decided to make it right. I expect they will be increasing the price a bit more than the cost of packaging.

After looking at the release charts I suddenly want a Breakfast Stout for breakfast!

I still have argument with that rationale. By packaging in 4 packs it is going to help product move faster? I see no way that works because the stores are still going to buy up stock in the same amounts if they can and will probably sell less because if I want a 6 of something and 4's are all that is available I would just buy a 4 instead of 2 of them.

Oh wait, that is for limiting the supply. Ok, costs more, less sell. Logic isn't entirely sound there unless they hit the perfect price point.

Just my opinion though.

 

[rjbergen]

Part of why Founder's prices are going up is likely due to their expansion. They have drasctically increased their brewing capacity. They just spent $26 million on upgrades, $22 million of that directly into brewing equipment.

They took their brewing capacity of about 40,000 barrels in 2011, and increased to 75,000 barrels in 2012. They've pushed that to about 130,000 barrels for 2013, and should be close to 320,000 barrels for 2014. That's a massive increase in production.

The work has also slowed their current production leading to some delays and shortages in product currently. This could also drive the price up and the smaller 4 packs to make it go further.

Give them a break, they are trying to expand as fast as they can. I love visiting their taproom and having some food and beers. Being able to take growlers home is awesome too. This new rennovation will add significant room to their tap room which used to be packed to the walls all the time.

Here are some articles about them:
Wikipedia
Founder's expansion blog
Founder's blog post on delays
Founder's original expansion announcement
News article on the expansion
MLive article detailing their growth (neat graph showing their brewing capacity by year)

 

[rjbergen]

I did, and i'll soon have 5G of it.

Prices at this store are actually low for the area too. CT is getting ridiculous with craft prices. I wonder if the BMC is closer in price nationwide and it's the craft that mainly varies...what do you guys see 30 packs for?

30 packs of what? I can get a 30 pack of Hamm's for about $11.99 in Metro Detroit.

A 30 pack of Natty Light is about $12.99 or $13.99.

A 24 pack of Bud/Bud Light/Coors is about $14.99, maybe $13.99 on sale.

 

[RhodySeth]

Hmm. Feel I just saw this beer recently in a store here in Rhode Island and it was still in a 6-pack. And definitely not for $13. Funny how beer distribution and prices can vary so much.

 

[Spartan1979]

30 packs of what? I can get a 30 pack of Hamm's for about $11.99 in Metro Detroit.

They still make Hamm's? I haven't seen that in years.

 

[GrogNerd]

CT is 3-tiered distribution?

4 out of the 5 voices in my head think it's BMC pressuring the distributors & retailers

the 5th voice just likes to be contrary

 

[wi_brewer]

Same thing happened with SN Bigfoot.

Breakfast Stout went from a 4-pack to a 6-pack for the same price. So call it a wash.

 

[cscade]

Retailers determine the prices they sell all beer for. The breweries (at least in the craft end of the spectrum) have no say in the matter whatsoever. The price the brewery sells their beer to distribution/retail does not extend to the prices you see.

It's quite likely that Founders made the change to the 4-pack for the aforementioned quality reasons. They are probably also selling those 4-packs to distributors cheaper than the 6-packs last season. It's also likely that the retailer is charging an exorbitant markup on the beer because right now in the craft scene 4 > 6 to the average consumer on the "special" scale. The retailer is simply taking advantage of that perception.

Hopefully you can find a retailer with more sane markup.

 

[duboman]

I just checked beermenus.com and the Founders Red's RyePA is selling everywhere around Chicago in 6-packs for $9.99. I haven't looked in person to confirm, but I can't imagine all those listings would be wrong.

That's what I saw at my Binny's the other day.

As an aside, it's kind of funny that nobody seems to balk at paying close to $20 for any of 3FFF's bombers and nobody can even keep them on the shelf with limits of one per customer

 

[Evan_L]

30 packs of what? I can get a 30 pack of Hamm's for about $11.99 in Metro Detroit.

A 30 pack of Natty Light is about $12.99 or $13.99.

A 24 pack of Bud/Bud Light/Coors is about $14.99, maybe $13.99 on sale.

Holy hell, BL is about $22 cheapest here! CT is too damn expensive.

I get the expansion and if they were selling it at a loss in years past, making production whole again....but $13/4pk vs $12/6pk is a 60% increase. My desire to give them the benefit of the doubt runs short at about a 25% increase. Although retailers determine price point, I don't believe they'd have the balls to try and capitalize to that extent...it would be pretty ballsy.

 

[ObsidianJester]

I'm sure that some of it is a switch as quite a lot of their offerings this year that I've purchased have been four packs. Devil Dancer, Rubaeus, Double Trouble just to name a bit.
Beer is expensive to buy guys, the bottles are not cheap to ship.
As others have noticed and pointed out no one flinches at 10 to 25 bucks for a bomber however. Even at 10 bucks for 22 ounces, a four pack selling for 12 bucks is still a good deal by those ideas.

I am not a fan of bombers for some beers because I generally want just one heavy ABV beer. 12 ounces is much more convenient to me.

Surly only sells in four pack cans unless its a special release. Four cans range from 9 bucks to 16 bucks for 4 sixteen ounce cans. I would say that the founders price is with in the general price point.

If its a great beer it will sell.

I remember This years Hopslam going for 16 to 20 a six pack and that was the most disappointing beer I've had to date.

 

[Fuzzymittenbrewing]

Your bottle shop sucks. Period

 

[rjbergen]

Holy hell, BL is about $22 cheapest here! CT is too damn expensive.

I get the expansion and if they were selling it at a loss in years past, making production whole again....but $13/4pk vs $12/6pk is a 60% increase. My desire to give them the benefit of the doubt runs short at about a 25% increase. Although retailers determine price point, I don't believe they'd have the balls to try and capitalize to that extent...it would be pretty ballsy.

A 24 pack of Bud Light is $22?! Whoah!

I can get a 24 pack of Leinenkugels Summer Shandy bottle for $22 from Costco. A 24 pack sampler of Sam Adam's seasonal goes for $24 at Costco.

 

[Evan_L]

$22/30 rack

 

[rjbergen]

$22/30 rack

Ahh, we don't have Bud Light in 30 racks here, only 24. Only things that come in 30 racks are things I don't want to drink.

 

[Mb2658]

I think that 4 packs are disappointing in general. It's like they are trying to ration us. Beer comes i. 6 packs. If I want 4 beers, I'll buy a six pack and drink 4. What's next? Cartons of 8 eggs instead of 12?

 

[Crito]

I am not crazy about their beer. So it won't affect my wallet.

To many locals that produce just as good beer. Competition.

 

[Evan_L]

Ok, guess I need to recant a bit, saw the 4pk for $10, not too bad. I guess the local packy was the one ripping me off.

 

[Fuzzymittenbrewing]

Ok, guess I need to recant a bit, saw the 4pk for $10, not too bad. I guess the local packy was the one ripping me off.

Off sub but this is like the 3rd time this week ive seen "local packy" wtf is that?? Lol

 

[Mb2658]

Off sub but this is like the 3rd time this week ive seen "local packy" wtf is that?? Lol

I believe that it is a pejorative for someone from Pakistan.

 

[MaxStout]

I believe that it is a pejorative for someone from Pakistan.

Or east-coast slang for "package store."

 

[Fuzzymittenbrewing]

Ahh I see. I come from somewhere theyre just liquor stores, then moved to MI and its "party stores" so I figured its a regional deal

 

[tx-brewer]

Yall call em package stores up there?

Where does "package" come from?

 

[MaxStout]

Yall call em package stores up there?

Where does "package" come from?

Due to the requirement in some states that purchased liquor must be packaged in sealed bottles or other containers when it is taken from the store. Mostly a New England term. I recall hearing people in Boston referring to "package stores."