Failed Bottle Carbing ... again

[maztec]

About every third batch that I make completely fails at carbonating in the bottle. I am at a total loss as to what is causing this, as there appears to be nothing consistent in what I do - presumably "wrong" somewhere - to cause this.

Bottling procedure:

1) Clean bottles with starsan, let them dry. However, sometimes I let the diluted starsan sit in them, I pour them out, and then fill them. I have not found there to be any difference in carbing related to this.

2) Boil bottling sugar in 2 cups water, let cool to room temperature. [Last time I used 124g corn sugar in 2 cups water for 4.5 gallons brew [my OG was right on, but the volume of fluid was low .. I lost a bit at some point] Yes, this is a bit low for priming, but it shouldn't be totally flat ...].

3) Add the room temperature sugar syrup to my bottling bucket.

4) Rack my carboy into my bottling bucket.

5) Give my bottling bucket a good stir.

6) Wait an hour.

7) Give the bottling bucket another stir.

8) Put beer in bottles.

9) Cap.

10) Let sit for two weeks, in a dark box, in a dark corner, at room temperature.

11) Put in the fridge for two days.

12) Open. And... no "pfft" and no carbonation to the beer.

Just, flat... I did the Blood Orange Hefeweizen recipe listed on the forums here. It tastes great, maybe a little sweet - but it was a little sweet before I bottled it- but that's it.

The only thing I can think of is that my yeast is dying off and there isn't enough to carbonate. If that is the case, then how do I add yeast back in? I tried that with my apple cider that had sat around for 6 months in the secondary, but it is undercarbed also (to that I added 2 tablespoons champagne yeast, and my priming sugar syrup.)

Also, if a bottle IS undercarbed, and the assumption is due to the yeast having died... is it possible to pop the bottles, add a few grains of yeast, and reclose them? If it is, how should I go about doing that?

Thanks!

- M

 

[oceanselv]

I don't see anything you are doing wrong. I see only 2 minor differences between the way I bottle and your method. I run my bottles through the dishwasher when I empty them and then use the rinse cycle and the heated dry prior to bottling. I also don't wait an hour after I have added the priming sugar. I give it a good stir and then a whirlpool and wait for 10 minutes.

I agree it does appear as if the yeast is dying on you. There are only 3 places the yeast can be dying, in the fermenter, the bottling bucket and the bottles. If the yeast were dying in the bottles, I would presume you would be getting carbonation in some bottles but not others. This leads me to think it is n your bottling bucket. How are you cleaning and sanitizing the bottling bucket?

 

[Yooper]

I think the issue is #6. You want to rack the beer into the bottling bucket, and bottle right away.

You're adding a very small amount of priming sugar, considering the amount of fermentables you get from the sugar, and adding it and then letting it sit, and then stirring might be the issue. The yeast will ferment that priming sugar relatively quickly, and you want to get the beer into the bottles as soon as you add the priming sugar. I mean, a couple of minutes while you fill and cap the bottles is fine, but if you're waiting an hour before even starting to fill, some of the priming sugar could be eaten before you get the last cap on.

My technique doesn't involve stirring or anything. My tubing is long, so I put it in a "curl" in the bottom of the bottling bucket and it "swirls" around with the priming sugar as I rack. Then, I lift that bucket to the counter, fill the bottles, and cap. It takes about 20 minutes total.

 

[Pilgarlic]

I do exactly as Yooper does, without a stir or a pause, and have never had a flat bottled beer.

 

[ChshreCat]

I was curious why you're letting it sit for an hour before bottling. Your yeast are eating up the sugar and putting off CO2 that whole time. Don't know if an hour would be enough time for it to make a difference, but it seems odd to me.

 

[maztec]

The first two batches I ever did I bottled directly after putting the sugar in and a good stir. And, both times, only two or three bottles carbed out of the whole batch. I came here, and was informed to wait an hour to let the sugars diffuse, and then give it a good stir. After that, every batch I did for a year was good. Then, starting a few months ago (right after I moved actually), every third batch I've bottled has not carbed at all. I can try bottling direct again.

I sanitize my bottling bucket the same way as I sanitize everything else, diluted starsan. In fact, I use the water I sanitize the bottling bucket with to sanitize the bottles.


All that said, is there any way I can fix my current bottles? Rather than drinking two batches of flat beer? I could pour them slowly back into the bottling bucket, but that just seems like a hassle. Would it be reasonable to mix up a yeast solution, and drop it in with a touch of sugar?

Thoughts? Recommendations?

 

[ChshreCat]

Question... what temperature are you keeping the bottles at after you bottle? And how long are you waiting before opening them?

 

[demonrichie]

are you pre-cleaning the bottles after using? cause it looks like youre sayin youre goin straight to starsan(just to clarify method)

 

[maztec]

Yes, I preclean my bottles before sanitizing them.

My bottles are kept at 65F.

 

[ChshreCat]

My bottles are kept at 65F.

For how long before you try them? That's a bit on the low side for carbonation so they'll take a bit longer than usual to carb up at 65.

 

[demonrichie]

yeah sounds like you may just have to give them more time or a bit higher temp.

 

[maztec]

That may be it. I try to store around 70F, but it has been unexpectedly cool lately, and was 65F.

I'll give them a few more weeks and see what happens.

They had been stored for two weeks already.

 

[northernlad]

Do you put them all in the fridge at the two week mark? The carbonation time is so imprecise that I check at 1 week knowing it is not long enough, at 2 and about 50% of the time they are ok, then at 3 weeks I think about throwing a six in the fridge at a time. I do not put my whole batch in the fridge, I let them continue the work they are going to do until its time to put them down.

 

[ChshreCat]

Try this as a test. Take a sixer of your most recent batch, slowly turn each bottle end over end to resuspend any yeast that settled out and then put the 6-pack on top of your fridge. Top of the fridge is usually one of the warmest places in the house. Give them a week and then pop one in the fridge for 2 days and give it a try. Then do another after another week. See if carbonation develops. If it works, then you just need to figure out a warmer place to carb up your beer.

 

[Revvy]

10) Let sit for two weeks, in a dark box, in a dark corner, at room temperature.


- M

This is why your beer isn't carbed across the board, You're simply not giving them enought time!

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

If your "room temperature" is under 70, They are going to need more time.

If you had opened them a week later, or even two, you never would have noticed. Each one is it's own little microcosm, and although generally they should come up at the same time, it's not an automatic switch, and they all pop on. There could be a few degrees temp difference in some of the bottles, and some may pop a little fater, like the ones that may be an inch or two closer to a heat source like a warm wall in your storage closet. It may not seem like a big deal to us, but to micro organisms that could be a big difference.

Take your beers out of the fridge, agitate them to resuspend the yeast, find the warmest room in your place, and come back in 2 weeks...I bet they will ALL be fine.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

 

[homebrewer_99]

Yeah, what Revvy said.

Also, after capping a bottle give your cap a twist...is it moves it's too loose. That's where your losing your potential carbonation.

 

[maztec]

Caps are firmly set (just checked). I only test one bottle in the fridge at a time, sometimes two.

I'll give it a few more weeks and update. It's possible I'm overreacting to this batch. However, my past batches that didn't carb also didn't have any carb at this point. Whereas, the bottles that did, at the very least gave out a little "whiff" when I cracked the lid.

 

[Revvy]

Caps are firmly set (just checked). I only test one bottle in the fridge at a time, sometimes two.

I'll give it a few more weeks and update. It's possible I'm overreacting to this batch. However, my past batches that didn't carb also didn't have any carb at this point. Whereas, the bottles that did, at the very least gave out a little "whiff" when I cracked the lid.

Well unless you a brew the same style of beer everytime, then more than likely they are all going to have different gravities.

Gravity and storage temps are the two most determining factors in time it takes to carb and condition. Especially gravity. And different gravity beers are going to take different amounts of time, even to "pfft."

Lazy Llama came up with a handy dandy chart to determine how long something takes in brewing, whether it's fermentation, carbonation, bottle conditioning....

 

[homebrewer_99]

I like how the Lazy Llama keeps it simple...

 

[maztec]

Lazy Llama for the brew Thanks for passing that on Revvy.

 

[Malintent]

Do you put them all in the fridge at the two week mark? The carbonation time is so imprecise that I check at 1 week knowing it is not long enough, at 2 and about 50% of the time they are ok, then at 3 weeks I think about throwing a six in the fridge at a time. I do not put my whole batch in the fridge, I let them continue the work they are going to do until its time to put them down.

I do exactly this with the same results.

I would like to know what the OG and FG are. You could be reaching full attenuation with your yeast and they are not so much being killed by something you are doing wrong, but by something you are doing right

 

[maztec]

Last batched started 1.055, ended 1.011.

 

[Malintent]

Last batched started 1.055, ended 1.011.

That does not sound like full attenuation. Something is putting your yeast to sleep or to their grave.

 

[maztec]

That does not sound like full attenuation. Something is putting your yeast to sleep or to their grave.

I had thought the same. I enquired in the thread on that brew, and had several people come back that they had ended at the same point. And the original recipe had a final FG of 1.12 typically. Then again, my OG was higher than normal, but that was because I had used a bit more LME on accident - I noticed after that the containers were larger than I had thought they were (stupid me).

The recipe is this one: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/blood-orange-hefeweizen-98579/index2.html#post1321643

 

[DavidSteel]

6) Wait an hour.

Prabably the problem

 

[Yooper]

That does not sound like full attenuation. Something is putting your yeast to sleep or to their grave.

I don't understand that statement. That's over 79% attenuation- that's actually pretty high. Most of the yeast strains I use are 69-75% attenuation. Depending on the yeast strain, that's a higher than average attenuation. The yeast aren't asleep- they're finished.

 

[maztec]

Wyeast 3068 - attenuation range 73-77%.

According to my recipe, once adjusted for my minor mistake, my OG should have been 1.056, and TG around 1.018. With 1.011, I would say I did better than expected. My total attenuation was 80.2%, which if anything is out of range for this yeast.

And when I wrote 1.12 earlier, I meant 1.012.

 

[MajorTom]

I don't think your yeast are dying. I don't really think the hour wait is an issue although I don't understand why to do that. If you are getting a couple of bottles carbed out of a batch, I think you have some sort of capping issue. There just isn't that much that can go wrong if you get the sugar and the yeast together other than not keeping the pressure in the bottle.

 

[maztec]

Only capping issue I could see is having ordered a bad batch of caps, because they all sit firmly and appear to be sealed.

 

[mbtech]

I am having the same issue with long carb times. I made an arrogant bastard clone about 8 weeks ago and its only about 50% carbed, and probably around 7% ABV. A few weeks ago I started to agitate the bottles once a week, and I layed them on their sides thinking if the caps were loose, they would leak. Am I correct on my thinking?

 

[Malintent]

I am having the same issue with long carb times. I made an arrogant bastard clone about 8 weeks ago and its only about 50% carbed, and probably around 7% ABV. A few weeks ago I started to agitate the bottles once a week, and I layed them on their sides thinking if the caps were loose, they would leak. Am I correct on my thinking?

yes, they would leak if that was the issue.