Failed 5 Gallon Ale Cider

[mazar83]

Dear Home Brew,

I currently have a possibly failed 5 gallon ale cider batch. I am using a glass carboy with a 3-piece airlock. I pitched the yeast in ~100 degree F cider, and confirmed that it was active before adding it to the rest of the batch.

Unfortunately, after 3 days there was no visible activity. And I saw that the fluid level in the airlock was low...so I added more Star San to the airlock. Then on the fourth day, I saw that the airlock fluid level was low again. I think that a negative pressure somehow developed, and that the Star San fluid got sucked into the batch.

Is the batch completely ruined? Will 2 fluid ounces of Star San completely sterilize a 5 gallon batch? I should start again from scratch...right? How can I ensure this does not happen next time?

Thanks!

 

[ChefRex]

"I pitched the yeast in ~100 degree F cider,"

That's your issue right there, repitch and you will be fine, a couple oz of Starsan won't hurt anything.

 

[wysiwyg]

I don't think the starsan is your problem - you probably killed your yeast by pitching too hot. Now that your cider has had a chance to cool a bit, re-pitch another yeast.

 

[Sir_niveda]

The reason your star-san was sucked into your fermentor, was that it was 100*F when you sealed it up. When the wort cooled to room temperature it created negative pressure, sucking your star-san in.

 

[mazar83]

Thanks for the advise. I was worried that I'd have to dump it. To give you a little more information, I pitched the yeast in ~3 cups of 92 degree F cider. The rest of the cider was a little bit lower than room temperature, since I used it soon after getting it from the grocery store. I then added the (~3 cups + yeast) to the rest of the batch.

 

[fuelish]

I pitched the yeast in ~100 degree F cider, and confirmed that it was active before adding it to the rest of the batch.

Sounds to me that he had a small amount of 100* cider he rehydrated yeast in and added to the rest appropriately.....my guess goes to the fermentor being placed someplace where there are temp variations, such as getting colder at night, which can lead to suckback....and I doubt a small amt of Starsan is going to ruin the batch......there's also the very very outside chance that the airlock has a crack and the solution is slowly leaking out.....slim, but, still a chance....but it sounds like he did not have 5 gallons of 100* cider ale.....but I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last

 

[sudbuddy]

what's "ale cider?" I know what an ale is, and I know what a cider is, so is ale cider a beer mixed with cider?

 

[mazar83]

I am on my way to get new yeast...

 

[mazar83]

By ale cider, I meant that I used Nottingham ale yeast with apple cider.

 

[bernardsmith]

But "cider from the grocery store" raises a red flag... There is no sorbate in that cider acting as a preservative, is there? Your yeast is not going to successfully overcome the yeast castrating power of sorbates..

 

[sudbuddy]

By ale cider, I meant that I used Nottingham ale yeast with apple cider.

I figured that, I was just busting your b@lls

 

[Sir_niveda]

Thanks for the advise. I was worried that I'd have to dump it. To give you a little more information, I pitched the yeast in ~3 cups of 92 degree F cider. The rest of the cider was a little bit lower than room temperature, since I used it soon after getting it from the grocery store. I then added the (~3 cups + yeast) to the rest of the batch.

Ah yes I see that now. Disregard what I said.

But now I'm curious why the yeast was pitched into hot cider. I've only made hard cider once, but when I did it, the only thing I heated was the brown sugar in water. After that I cooled it, added it to the jug (1 gallon batch), and directly pitched my yeast.

 

[mazar83]

bernardsmith is right. I am stupid. I checked the ingredients and it contains potassium sorbate...

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

bernardsmith is right. I am stupid. I checked the ingredients and it contains potassium sorbate...

You were unaware. Now that you have learned your lesson, you are wise.

 

[bernardsmith]

bernardsmith is right. I am stupid. I checked the ingredients and it contains potassium sorbate...

Not "stupid". Don't beat yourself up There are always more than enough people in this world who are happy to beat you up. Cider (apple juice) made for supermarkets is routinely drenched in sorbates. You really want to look for cider that is produced for farmers markets and the like. Pasteurization (heat or UV) is not a problem for yeast although heat pasteurization suggests that the cider maker does not think that his or her cider is so flavorful that they want to avoid destroying volatile flavor and aromatic molecules with heat... so that would suggest to me to avoid that source.

 

[Firewalker11]

bernardsmith is right. I am stupid. I checked the ingredients and it contains potassium sorbate...

Lesson learned but keep in mind that yeast all have instructions on the package, follow them or ask the question here before pitching on 100° cider.

I know you are exited and hurried through it but please, ask questions and read Yoopers "Cider for Beginners" post.

 

[madscientist451]

If the apple juice still tastes ok, you can keep it in the 'fridge and drink it, it just won't ferment. So look in the store for some apple juice without preservatives, I'd also start with a smaller batch until you get some experience, get some 1 gallon jugs and ferment small batches in those. If you are also brewing beer, you can re-pitch a beer yeast from that. I like making about 3.5 gallons in a 5 gallon carboy and when fermentation stops rack to a 3 gallon carboy for aging. I don't like Nottingham yeast in cider but many people use it with good results. I'm mostly using WL 002 for cider, but if you get some 1 gallon jugs you can do your own experimentation. Good Luck!

 

[Sailingeric]

I have batch using the WLP002 on tap now and it is great. Leaves a some sweetness due to its lower attenuation so you dont have to back sweeten and since you dont have to back sweeten you can bottle carb without having to pasteurize them or fearing the bottle bomb.

 

[mazar83]

I plan to mull the cider and then spike it with hard alcohol.

In previous batches, I had been buying cold-pasteurized orchard cider (not juice) from a nearby farmer's market. I became accustomed to that and forgot to check the ingredients when I bought my cider from the grocery store. Yup, I was in a hurry when I bought my cider on New Year's Eve...

Ok I will get a couple packs of WL002 for my next attempt.

Thanks!

 

[MindenMan]

Don't throw in the towel... The sorbates in the cider you bought are ppm for the exact quantity of cider in the bottle; what I mean is if you dilute that cider/juice with cider/juice that doesn't have preservatives your problem will go away. Mix your sorbate ciders with non-sorbate cider 50-50 or so, pitch new yeast and all should be well.

 

[bernardsmith]

Don't throw in the towel... The sorbates in the cider you bought are ppm for the exact quantity of cider in the bottle; what I mean is if you dilute that cider/juice with cider/juice that doesn't have preservatives your problem will go away. Mix your sorbate ciders with non-sorbate cider 50-50 or so, pitch new yeast and all should be well.

You may also have to do a queen's gambit and sacrifice several packets of active yeast to bind the sorbate and then pitch the yeast you want to use

 

[mazar83]

Since the original post, I have either consumed or saved in containers for later ~3.5 gallons of the potassium sorbate containing cider. That left ~1.5 gallons of fluid, which contained potassium sorbate and a large amount of added sugar.

I recently added ~3.5 gallons of cheap apple juice, which I made sure did not contain preservatives (e.g., potassium sorbate). Then I pitched another packet of yeast, and it took off very quickly. After one day I had an airlock bubble every 2 seconds. Doing this saved most of the sugar I had added that had settled to the bottom.

I plan to use up the remaining preserved cider in small amounts in future batches.

Thanks for the help!

 

[CMcPherson]

I'm glad that you figured out the problem.
I doubt that 100° juice is too hot for the yeast.
I've just started learning to make starters and I keep them in my commercial bread proofing box set at its minimum of 100°.
I'm brand new to cider but do know a bit about bread yeast in general.