EZboil Makes My Lights Flicker

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cctopcat

cctopcat

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I've been running a 50amp panel with 3 SYL-2352 PIDs for about 6 years. I recently upgraded the element control PIDs to DSPR-300 EZboils. When they are running at 100% power all is well but when turned down the pulsing makes some of the lights in the house flicker. The flicker is worse with some recently added LED lights than with the incandescents. I put one of the PIDs back in and it flickers too, just not as noticably.

The main house has a 400amp service panel with a 100 amp feeder to my brewing space in a 10ish year old addition. The sub runs an AC/Furnace, washer/dryer, a couple refrigerators and several other circuits. The brew panel is fed from the sub panel by a dedicated 50 amp circuit to a spa panel. All of the breakers are cool to the touch when the elements are firing.

Someone on the Auber Forum said "it could be caused by inductive & capacitive interference in your wiring/system. If you have any inductive or capacitive loads running in your system under the same circuit, it may cause this issue."

Any ideas on possible causes or what I might check? Thanks for reading!
 
All of the motor-driven loads on your 100A branch are obviously inductive - and it sounds like there are quite a few - but the question then is are you seeing the pulsing only when a significant inductive load is actually active? If you're not sure it's something easily checked out: turn everything off but your brew rig and see what happens.

As for "capacitive loading" I got nothing. I have no idea what kind of AC connected device would represent a significant "capacitive load"...

Cheers!

[edit] And below that thread you link there's a bunch of similar threads. I think it's gotta be the nature of the beast...
 
The EZ-Boils all do zero crossing switching, so I can't see where an inductive effect would come from. It's probably just voltage drops due to the pulsating current.

Edit: After some more thought, there is probably some inductance in the power feed to the building. This would result in a temporary voltage drop on all the circuits when a large resistive load is switched on. Still don't think it would be related to other inductive loads in the building. Inductive loads might cause some of their own voltage anomalies when switching, but we are talking about anomalies caused by the element power being switched.

Brew on :mug:
 
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Maybe the controllers induce higher harmonics, i.e. noise on the main line? Probably hard to measure. Maybe try putting chokes/inductors/filters on the LED DC lines (after the power supply)? I'm not sure what to do about the incandescent flickering. I don't know whether you could get an an isolation transformer or power conditioner big enough for your controllers.
 
Gruel said:
Maybe the controllers induce higher harmonics, i.e. noise on the main line? Probably hard to measure. Maybe try putting chokes/inductors/filters on the LED DC lines (after the power supply)? I'm not sure what to do about the incandescent flickering. I don't know whether you could get an an isolation transformer or power conditioner big enough for your controllers.
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Zero switching (as EZ-Boils and most PWM PID's do) should not produce harmonic noise on the wires, unlike SSVR's that use arbitrary phase angle turn on.

Brew on :mug:
 
i'm not a electrician, but i did have big subs in my car when i was a kid...and i needed a big cap so my head lights wouldn't dim when they hit....something like one of these....

https://www.amazon.com/Rockford-RFC1-1-Farad-Capacitor/dp/B0012BWMKW
maybe something similar for 220v, 50amp?

or buy 19 of these, and series them up for 220v volt......but at any rate, with my car stereo, i learned if you don't want your headlights to dim when they're hitting you need a cap....a big one....
 
Im not an electrician, but I'm pretty sure you have too much on your 100 amp sub panel. Why not feed some more from the 400? I would recommend running your brew panel from your 400 amp, not the 100 amp sub. With the loads you listed you probably need 200 amp to your sub panel. Those are all the biggest loads in your house, not enough power feed.
 
bracconiere said:
i'm not a electrician, but i did have big subs in my car when i was a kid...and i needed a big cap so my head lights wouldn't dim when they hit....something like one of these....

https://www.amazon.com/Rockford-RFC1-1-Farad-Capacitor/dp/B0012BWMKW
maybe something similar for 220v, 50amp?

or buy 19 of these, and series them up for 220v volt......but at any rate, with my car stereo, i learned if you don't want your headlights to dim when they're hitting you need a cap....a big one....
Click to expand...
Some big capacitors across the structure power feed would likely smooth out the voltage dips caused by sudden increases in load. They would counteract the inductance in the power feed. They would represent a fairly high risk potential failure point in the structures power supply.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Some big capacitors across the structure power feed would likely smooth out the voltage dips caused by sudden increases in load. They would counteract the inductance in the power feed. They would represent a fairly high risk potential failure point in the structures power supply.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...


i was just thinking about sticking one on the power cord.......what i did with my cars sub amp......and it did solve my dimming headlights.....
 
Your car is DC. Your house is AC. Capacitors work different on AC, polarity reverses 60 times a second (in the US).
 
Right. Afaik the only time a capacitor on AC power lines is appropriate is for motor start and run capacitors, and those have very specific functions that don't include holding up a main line :D

Cheers!
 
If you had large inductive loads, then capacitors could compensate to bring the power factor closer to 1. Otherwise I don't see what capacitors would be good for (see previous posts).

Regarding zero voltage switching and no noise: I think it again depends on your power factor, and the phase angle between voltage and current. If you have large inductive loads, then switching (off) at zero voltage is not the same as switching off at zero current.

Measuring the voltages at your different panels might help with finding out how loaded (or overloaded) they are. But the lights that flicker are not all on the same subpanel as the brewing setup, right? Is there any 240V wiring or equipment involved?

It might be time to have an electrician look at your panels. I just discovered that at my place one phase from what must have originally been a 240V (2 phase) connection (linked breakers) was hardwired to neutral; whoever did that must have burnt out one half of the 2*20A breaker pair right upon installation, and ever since only one of the two circuits was working. I found it when my window air conditioners started tripping the breaker, and I realized that they were sharing a single 20A circuit. The phase to neutral connection was made in two places, so somebody definitely thought they knew what they were doing. My guess is they replaced 240V outlets with 120V ones, and miswired them.
 
I had a successful brew day today and "my friend flicker" was still there but much less noticeable and not really bothersome. The weather was mild so no ACs running, maybe an occasional fridge on for a bit and the lights in the room so I was well under a 100amp draw including the brew equipment.

It does seem like a voltage fluctuation issue and in reading more it seems some LEDs are sensitive to that. I remembered I had checked a 110 circuit on the sub with a Kill A Watt when the flicker was worse a few days ago. The reading was bouncing between 114v and 116v while the elements were firing. I just plugged it in again with minimal draws on the sub-panel and it was a steady 121v. I'm guessing @doug293cz is right and I have service issues. I'm rural and plan on getting a whole house backup generator soon so that will be a good time to double check all the electrical in the house.

Anyway, thank you all for the thoughtful responses. Here is an action shot from today of my third stall garage brewery.

20200822_115222a.jpg
 
Gruel said:
...

Regarding zero voltage switching and no noise: I think it again depends on your power factor, and the phase angle between voltage and current. If you have large inductive loads, then switching (off) at zero voltage is not the same as switching off at zero current.

...
Click to expand...
The EZ-Boil is switching a heating element, which is almost purely resistive, so C/V phase angle should be close to zero (unless there is some other load that will shift the phase angle that the brew controller is seeing.

Brew on :mug:
 
cctopcat said:
I had a successful brew day today and "my friend flicker" was still there but much less noticeable and not really bothersome. The weather was mild so no ACs running, maybe an occasional fridge on for a bit and the lights in the room so I was well under a 100amp draw including the brew equipment.

It does seem like a voltage fluctuation issue and in reading more it seems some LEDs are sensitive to that. I remembered I had checked a 110 circuit on the sub with a Kill A Watt when the flicker was worse a few days ago. The reading was bouncing between 114v and 116v while the elements were firing. I just plugged it in again with minimal draws on the sub-panel and it was a steady 121v. I'm guessing @doug293cz is right and I have service issues. I'm rural and plan on getting a whole house backup generator soon so that will be a good time to double check all the electrical in the house.

Anyway, thank you all for the thoughtful responses. Here is an action shot from today of my third stall garage brewery.

View attachment 695064
Click to expand...
Very nice rig. I had this problem and it was very noticeable when the washing machine was running. I had the city come out and test my main grounds and sure enough one was badly corroded. Fixed my problem.
 
Well, with the Apocalypse and all I haven't had anyone look at it. But I've done a couple batches since then and it was much less noticeable. It's almost as if the feed from the utility is lacking at times. It doesn't seem like a huge problem, no hot spots anywhere, but I still plan to have it checked out when the world gets closer to normal again. Will definitely check to see if it is a ground issue like you had. Thanks for your interest.
 
i have the same issue in my house. we had the city look at the main line, the builder of our home looked 5 times now. even did a voltage recorder on the house for 2 weeks. nothing.

i was told its the "cheap" LED bulbs we put in the house. but i had the issue before i replaced them all and before my system was built... for now i just deal with it. its gotten better over time.
 
fwiw, one of my neighbors has been doing some cottage industry stuff and recently had his load center upgraded from 100A to 200A, and installed some hunky equipment that promptly caused all kinds of electrical havoc in his home. Our development has all underground utilities, and it turns out the mains from the transformers were run to the houses sans conduit, and after 40-something years are breaking down, the degree depending on how wet the particular lot might be. The same issue has bitten quite a few homes in the development.

The neighbor's run was toast and had to be replaced on his dime - a 300' trench job, not cheap.

Interestingly everyone's mains are legit 200A 4/0 Al runs though most of the homes started with 100A load centers. The ones that went straight to 200A were resistive electric heated back in the 70s when the "oil crises" freaked out many folks about heating with oil (and there is no gas in the streets here). Poor bastids got killed when the "crises" resolved while electric rates ran wild, and most eventually installed oil or propane furnaces...

Cheers!
 
Jako said:
i have the same issue in my house. we had the city look at the main line, the builder of our home looked 5 times now. even did a voltage recorder on the house for 2 weeks. nothing.

i was told its the "cheap" LED bulbs we put in the house. but i had the issue before i replaced them all and before my system was built... for now i just deal with it. its gotten better over time.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't count on an electrical problem correcting itself.
 
When I had a problem with my voltage fluctuating I finally found the meter sock connections were corroded after 40 years. The neutral was the main problem. I replaced the meter socket and coated the wires with Noalox® Should be good for another 50 years.
 
Sundy said:
When I had a problem with my voltage fluctuating I finally found the meter sock connections were corroded after 40 years. The neutral was the main problem. I replaced the meter socket and coated the wires with Noalox® Should be good for another 50 years.
Click to expand...
Good old Noalox. We used it on all ground bar connections at cell sites and COs when I worked in the field for Nortel Networks/ Northern Telecom. Damn I miss those days.
 
It is the first time I've used it. Fingers crossed. The local utility guy came and cut the transmission lines off my connection and let me install the meter socket even tho I'm not licensed. He came back and inspected it, and wired me back up. Saved me a couple of thousand dollars in electrician fees. Electric in the house has been rock solid since. My new place has a 50 Amp connection in the shop, not used at all. Hence the new 220 Digibrew!
 
Sundy said:
It is the first time I've used it. Fingers crossed. The local utility guy came and cut the transmission lines off my connection and let me install the meter socket even tho I'm not licensed. He came back and inspected it, and wired me back up. Saved me a couple of thousand dollars in electrician fees. Electric in the house has been rock solid since. My new place has a 50 Amp connection in the shop, not used at all. Hence the new 220 Digibrew!
Click to expand...
How much beer did it cost you??
 

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