Extract vs all-grain

[dparker21]

I'm Really new at this like a week in and I've brewed my first 2 batches and they're fermenting. I just was thinking and figured I'd ask the guys who have been doing this a while... Which produces better beer all-grain or extract? Also is brewing from extract considered the "newbie" thing to do? Just wondering just a thought and I figured u guys could answer these questions...

 

[funkadelicturkey]

Hi!

Welcome to HBT and congrats on your first couple of batches. Either method can produce great beers, some people stick with extract forever. It is not just a newbie method, it is just a method, choose whatever method you are interested in and what works for you and your circumstances, space, budget, etc. Also, check out the search function on this website and you'll find lots of answers or use google. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=homebrewtalk.com+extract+vs.+all-grain Have fun brewing!!!

 

[tknice]

Welcome to HBT dparker21!

They will both brew great beer but to try to answer your question a little better, all grain gives the brewer a little more control over a few things when compared to extract. The process is a little more involved and I guess you could say a little more advanced (and time consuming) but here are a few things off the top of my head:

Since you are making your own sugar from the grain, you have control over the temperature of this process. Different temps will yield beer with different types of mouthfeel (some lighter, some heavier).

All grain is typically cheaper because of the cost of liquid malt extract (LME)

You have no control over how the LME was made (ie the water that was used etc.)

These days, we have access to just about every grain on the market which allows you to brew any recipe you want. Variations on some of these grain combinations can sometimes be found in liquid extract form but they tend to be costly.

Umm what else. I don't know but please don't think extract is noobish or frowned upon. It's all fun and great beer!

 

[step]

I will echo the previous responses in saying either can make great beer and either can make terrible beer... I like the control I have with all-grain, but I have had to invest a bit in my set-up(its super basic though) and I do have a much longer brew day than my extract friends.
All this being said there is nothing wrong with either, it just depends on how much control you want over the final product versus what level of input you want to put forth.

 

[Revvy]

The methods, or whether or not it's extract or AG is not what makes great beer. The Brewer should make great beer with whatever materials at hand.

I've tasted some great extracts and I've tasted some ****ty all grain batches. It all depends on the brewer and his process. Not whether it's an AG or an extract beer. Ag is not the holy grail of brewing. If you refuse to read a hydromter, don't pay attention to temp control, don't make a yeast starter for liquid, or pitch the right amount of yeast, and follow the 1-2-3 rule regardless of whether the yeast lagged for 72 hours or not, you're going to make crappy beer regardless of it being an extract or ag batch..

And if you do all those things that the AG brewer didn't, and use the freshest extract and do a full boil and late extract addition, you're going to make great if not award winning beers. It's that simple. I think people who blame extract for their crappy beers are copping out, and maybe should considering mastering them instead of thinking ag is going to be the answer to good tasting beer....


Read this, and then just try to make the best beer you can regardless of whether you use commercially produced extract, or you do the extracting yourself...which is the only difference between the two, whether you do the extracting/converting yourself, or buy it already done.

 

[tonyc318]

I have not ventured into all grain and don't see that happening anytime soon. However, it's more of a matter of lack of space and lack of funds for the equipment. I think I will be trying some BIAB batches once I get my process down. Either way, making your own beer is awesome and really good!

 

[moorerm04]

Like everyone else said you can make great and or crappy beer with either method. I am new to AG and have only made a couple batches that way and for me there hasn't been any difference in quality of my beer from any of my extract batches. Yes as some have said you have considerable more control as far as malt selection, mashing temps and times, etc. it is much more time consuming I went from about 2-3 hours for extract- partial mash to about 4-6 hours AG. Also you will need more equipment or a bigger kettle. Never the less great beer is produced by a great process be it AG or extract. Remember it's not the arrow, it's the Indian!

 

[Boomer]

I think you're probably starting to see a trend in the answers - all are true.

Here's my two cents:

I'm switching to All-Grain for one reason (Ok, several) only, longer brew days means longer drinking time with buddies!

Seriously, though, I haven't brewed AG, but I have been a part of several AG brew days. I like the control it offers and for me there's more of a personal touch to the final product when you've done everything but grow the grain/hops (some even do that). I think you may have more options, as well, unless you have a really good LHBS. We're kinda limited in the last frontier.

 

[dparker21]

Thanks everybody... Great answers and I look forward to talking to you all in the future on this forum!

 

[Grinder12000]

Ditto revvy. I mini mash and have no reason to go all grain. You can make fantastic award winning beer using extract. Many many breweries use extract.

However you have more control with all brain IF you are a good brewer and take advantage of it.

It's all about the brewer. I fix my water, research what is in extracts and buy the extract that is best for my beer.

A lot of All Grain brewers look down on extract brewers as being less experienced and extract brewers look down on all grain brewers because they fail to use all of the controls at their disposal (I'm treasurer of a club and see this a lot).

I feel extract is much easier and thus you can do so many little things to improve your beer.

All grain is a little tougher and you can make fantastic beer .... If you are a good brewer.

 

[osagedr]

I did a handful of extract batches before moving to AG. One of the things about extracts is that they can sometimes yield less fermentable wort. But extract brewing using specialty grains and/or partial mashes are good intermediate steps for those who don't want to do AG.

Seems like there's a natural progression to AG and it's a matter of some brewers being constrained to extracts for financial, time or space reasons. I don't remember reading about any AG brewers who decided to go back to extracts because they liked the beer better.

All in all there are fantastic extract brewers out there who make award-winning beer.

 

[IffyG]

Once you do a few extract batches, I'd high recommend venturing into partial mashing using the procedures outlined here: http://byo.com/component/resource/article/511-countertop-partial-mashing. It affords you most (but not all) of the benefits of all grain while still remaining relatively inexpensive. I think I invested a total of 12 bucks in the cooler and grain bag.

 

[jholen]

I'm just on a tight budget, so cheaper cost in the long run is what motivated me to save up, invest in some equipment for BIAB and buying grains in bulk.

Naturally this steered me towards AG - got my second AG batch fermenting away, and I've really been enjoying it. I'm not opposed to extract, but instead of going back to 100% extract I'd probably just go to partial mashes, if my brewday needed to be shortened up a bit, but then again, I've got 70+ lbs of grain needing to be used for AG, so probably not going to do any PM anytime soon. Only got DME for starters.

 

[wherestheyeast]

And if you do all those things that the AG brewer didn't, and use the freshest extract and do a full boil and late extract addition, you're going to make great if not award winning beers.

What is late extract addition?

 

[CidCitrus]

you add a small amount of extract at the beginning of the boil (for the hops) and add the rest towards the end of the boil or even flameout. it helps to reduce scorching of the extract.

 

[logdrum]

Ditto revvy. I mini mash and have no reason to go all grain. You can make fantastic award winning beer using extract. Many many breweries use extract.

Uh, really? Personally I'd appreciate supporting data. I would guess-and it's only a guess-that some brewpubs use extract. But the savings of all grain brewing-especially on a larger scale-would seem to rule out extract. Think of the beer you love-does Bell's use extract? Sierra Nevada? Great Lakes? For me, I'm trying to emulate outstanding commercial examples as much as possible (not brewing clones, though), so if I don't have time to brew all grain, I don't have time to brew.
While I've had some excellent partial mash brews, I've actually never had a "great" all extract beer. Although I do echo the posted sentiment-do what works for you. OK, exit soap box.

-d

 

[Revvy]

Uh, really? Personally I'd appreciate supporting data.
-d

Is this enough "supporting data" for you?

Why do you think Malt extract exists to begin with????You think there's enough of a homebrewing market to justify so many different extract manufactures? Maybe a little history of extract from BYO will give you an idea...

There's one thing for sure about malt extract - it's great stuff! History doesn't record the name of the 19th century brewmaster who first had the idea of concentrating and storing unfermented beer wort so the beer could be brewed at a later time, but he had a good idea. By changing malted barley into malt extract, a brewery could avoid problems with insects and mold and still store grain long past the harvest season. Also, concentrated malt extract was easier to ship to breweries located far from barley-growing areas.

You might find this article from Brewing techniques inciteful...Great Commercial Beer from Malt Extract

Also this article from a Maltser who evidenlty sells to commercial breweries (as does LD Carlson and Premier Malt Company, so obviously if extract makers have commercial divisions SOME BREWERIES most be buying it, eh?

MALT EXTRACT: PRIDE and PREJUDICE

In a MR Wizard article in BYO he mentions that several GABF winners have been extract brewhouses.

Here's a small list of some commercial breweries who use extract that I gleaned from Probrewer.com and other forums where this got asked, including here.

Pacific Coast Brewing out of Oakland, CA.
The Granite City chain of brewpubs
Buffalo Brewpub in Williamsville is an Extract System.
Heinzelmannchen in Sylva, NC,
GG Brewers in suburban Philly
Put-In-Bay Brewing Company
Buffalo Brewpub
Mohegan Cafe and Brewery

Strangford Lough Brewing Company export extract and finishing hops to contract breweries to turn into beer.

A small Co Down brewery is targeting the US market and creating jobs despite the recession.

Killyleagh-based Strangford Lough Brewing Company plans to start malting northern barley and exporting a concentrated malt extract to licensees in the US to produce the finished beer for the American market.

The company is seeking to establish a chain of around 40 licensees across the US and said it was well on the way to doing so.

There's a discussion in Rate beer that implies that Lagunitus might use BOTH hop and malt extract in their brews....I don't know for sure but they seem to have discussed it.

EDME, evidently sells extract to both commercial and microbrew trade/

Extracts

Edme's line of malt extract were designed with three scales of brewing in mind: commercial brewing, microbrewing, and home brewing. All are derived from UK-grown two-row barley or wheat processed at Edme's facilities in Mistley, England.

Commercial Brewery At the large-scale commercial level, Edme offers a series of products that can be used to adjust the color and character of a beer. Clarimalt range, malt syrup and dry malt extract: A very dark malt extract used to add roast malt flavors and color to any beer style pre- or post-fermentation. Available in 25-kg bags (dry weight) and in a syrup form in 13.5-kg and 25-kg bags.

Diastatic and nondiastatic malt syrups: These products range from very light to very dark and can be used for a variety of beer styles. The diastatic syrups range in diastatic power from 40 to 300 (degrees IOB). Specific details are supplied upon application. Available in 25-kg pails and 295-kg drums. The diastatic syrup is also available in 1-tonne (2200 U.S. lb) containers.

Tradimalt range, malt syrup: Used to enhance red notes in dark ales, ambers, etc. Available in 25-kg pails and 295-kg drums.

Microbrewery For the microbrewery sector, Edme supplies a separate series of products. The following extracts can be used as the complete wort or as individual adjuncts. All are available in 25-kg pails, 295-kg drums, or 1-tonne containers.

Ale: For ales and bitters. Unhopped.

Dark Ale: This extract has a high crystal malt content. Unhopped.

Light Ale: Used specifically for light beers and lagers. Unhopped.

Light Lager: Contains a glucose blend. Unhopped.

Pilsner: For lagers and Pilseners. Unhopped.

Stout: For stouts and porters. Unhopped.

Wheat: For wheat beers. Contains 40% barley and 60% wheat. Unhopped.

Home Brewery Edme's range of malt syrup beer kits for home brewers, Microbrewery Series, are derived from UK-grown two-row barley and/or wheat.

Amber: Used for bitters and ales. Unhopped. Available in 3.3-lb cans.

Classic Pilsner: Used for Pilsener or lager beers. Hopped. Available in 4-lb cans.

Dark: Used for ale, porter, stout, and Bock beer styles. Unhopped. Available in 3.3-lb cans.

English IPA: Used for India pale ale. Hopped. Available in 4-lb cans.

Extra Stout: Used for Irish extra stout. Hopped. Available in 4-lb cans.

Light: Used primarily for light beers. Unhopped. Available in 3.3-lb cans.

Maris Otter Light: An unhopped light malt syrup extracted exclusively from floor-malted Maris Otter premium two-row barley. Available in 3.3-lb cans and larger sizes.

Original Draught: Used for draught lagers. Hopped. Available in 4-lb cans.

Red Ale: Used for red ales. Contains a glucose blend and hops. Available in 4-lb cans.

Wheat Beer: Used for Weizen beer and Hefeweizen. Comprises 60% barley and 40% wheat. Available in 4-lb cans.

If there were no commercial breweries using extract, why would all these companies have commercial divisions.

Another thing folks don't seem to consider- they quote economics, how expensive extract is...It's expensive for homebrewers, but just how expensive is it for a commercial microbrewry or brewpub, paying wholesale and getting it delivered in tanker trucks or drums? It may be more costo effective for some smaller breweries, they don't need extra space to handle the mashing of grains, all they need are kettles and fermenters.

Oh and several sources including this one state that Chimay used (or uses) some malt extract.

These are the same as those listed on the label of one of the Brewery's three main beers, Chimay Triple (former White). The other two main beers, Chimay Red (Rouge) and Chimay Blue (Bleue), additionally have malt extract declared as an ingredient. For further information on Chimay Dorée, see below. Well, this was the ingredients disclosure for 2004 and earlier bottlings, but, amazingly, for the 2005 ones, the following are declared for Chimay Red and Blue: water, malted barley, wheat, sugar, hops and yeast....

And this one...

Malt extract, a material generally only used by beginners to home brewing, was introduced in 1994, according to Chimay, but only at a level of 0.1%. It is used in Chimay Red and Blue, but not the Triple (White), to compensate for variations in colour between each brew. Note that once a feed hopper is installed which will allow the segregation of Caramalt, the malt responsible for the colour of Chimay Red and Blue, malt extract will no longer be used in the brews and will thus not appear on the labels. On the visit, I asked Chimay why they do not correct the wheat starch error on the labels. They stated that they were afraid that people would assume that they had changed the recipe again, so they were reluctant to do this.

(It is interesting to see how many folks will say "back in the day" chimay tasted better than it does now, and are really talking about the '90's, when it contained malt extract?)

Oh and so does Guinness...

The second and most surprising point is the following

“Today at St. James’s Gate, Roast Malt Extract (RMX) and Mature High Gravity extract (MHG) are used in the brewing of Foreign Export Stout, draught Guinness, and Guinness Export Stout … What is common to all Guinness stout brewed in any location is the inclusion of dark RMX … and MHG”

–stated plainly by a retired Guinness employee

Translated that means that they no longer mash grain at the St. James Gate Brewery in Dublin. They take the extract that is created for use worldwide and use that to brew.

Someone on an Irish homebrewing thread mentioned Guinness and malt extract as well.

Postby Guyzer » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:33 pm
Excellent that's me sorted to brew my first stout then. Also i'll be adding my secret stolen ingredient: Roast Malt Extract from St.james Gate (I am a technician in the brewery)hehehe.

Is that enough for you????

(You're not the first person that's asked for this....)

 

[Northcalais40]

I also recall from a beer documentary (Beer Wars?) that AB used flavor extracts to make their fake microbrews. Not the best endorsment perhaps. You should by all means try both extract and all grain ( if you have the gear) and see for yourself.

 

[logdrum]

Revvy-

Thanks for the info. I've never seen that Edme brand for sale, but that is quite an impressive list. Nonetheless, my favorite commercial (including several local establishments:Fat Head's, Great Lakes, Brew Kettle) beers all are all grain. Also, while it wasn't a GABF gold, my Pale Ale has won two golds at AHA sanctioned contests, and my Blonde took a silver. Peace

-d

 

[Revvy]

Revvy-

Thanks for the info. I've never seen that Edme brand for sale, but that is quite an impressive list. Nonetheless, my favorite commercial (including several local establishments:Fat Head's, Great Lakes, Brew Kettle) beers all are all grain. Also, while it wasn't a GABF gold, my Pale Ale has won two golds at AHA sanctioned contests, and my Blonde took a silver. Peace

-d

SO what if your Favorite beers are all grain, or that you've won awards for your AG beers, I've won for both, extract and all grain...that has nothing to do with the fact that many award winning beers, and many commercial beers are made with extract....(Wasn't that what you wanted proof of, that some commercial breweries do use extract?)

Our bias has little if anything to do with the truth of the matter, that great beers and bad beers can be made with extract or all grain.....

Like all the other sily -vs- threads these arguments seem to come down to nothing more than preference.

"Better" hardly ever exist in this hobby.....

 

[jonmohno]

Simply put All-grain is cheaper and has more involvemnet/equipemnet.Whether its made as well or as consistantly basic as extract thats up to your involvemnt being a malt-sugar extracter-by making your own malt-tea and rinsing the grains.
I think freshness is key with extract whether its liquid or dry.Unfortuantly my first few batches with extract at my lhbs probably had ancient malt extract which added to my confusement my first few batches of why they turned out so mediocre. As well as some common noob mistakes i made.
Ive had great extract or partial mash beers in the past,but only contiue to use all grain because its cheaper and more from scratch and a funner rewarding process which i can use a huge variety of differnt grains for different effects.There are just some basic things you need to know have and do to do all grain.
Some of the all-grain braggarts in the past are probably those that fear making light lager fizzy yellow beers.

 

[Bradinator]

There is only one way to end this debate, once and for all.

Epic battle to the malty death.

There can only be one victor.

 

[jonmohno]

From that battle they end up in a partial mash.

 

[Revvy]

Good job Brad.

 

[Salpino]

In the intro to Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer explain how the book is a combination of two projects--John's desire to write a book on brewing excellent extract beer, and Jamil's desire to cover all of the BJCP styles. What we ended up with is a great book with 80 recipes covering all BJCP styles, with extract and all-grain versions of each recipe.

Also, take a listen to this episode of Brew Strong, where Jamil details a pre-hopped extract kit he brewed, with very good results: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/698

 

[unionrdr]

I think it comes down to the brewer. AG & Extract can make good or bad beers,depending on the brewer's skill & imagination.

 

[logdrum]

SO what if your Favorite beers are all grain, or that you've won awards for your AG beers, I've won for both, extract and all grain...that has nothing to do with the fact that many award winning beers, and many commercial beers are made with extract....(Wasn't that what you wanted proof of, that some commercial breweries do use extract?)
Our bias has little if anything to do with the truth of the matter, that great beers and bad beers can be made with extract or all grain.....

Like all the other sily -vs- threads these arguments seem to come down to nothing more than preference.

"Better" hardly ever exist in this hobby.....

Actually I was reacting to the "many many breweries" (and adding my preference and supporting evidence).

 

[tonyc318]

In the intro to Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer explain how the book is a combination of two projects--John's desire to write a book on brewing excellent extract beer, and Jamil's desire to cover all of the BJCP styles. What we ended up with is a great book with 80 recipes covering all BJCP styles, with extract and all-grain versions of each recipe.

Also, take a listen to this episode of Brew Strong, where Jamil details a pre-hopped extract kit he brewed, with very good results: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/698

Just listened to that the other day. They talk about extract brewing in an episode on kits beers and session beers. Very helpful for me personally. Just encouraging to know that I can make excellent extract beers since that what works best for me right now.

 

[swackattack]

Personally ive made some nice extract beers and will continue to do extract for one reason....time.

My extract beers are gettings better as time goes on as my recipes and processes are improving

 

[Yooper]

I just posted this the other day, so I'll give the short version.

I spied a co2 tank and corney keg on a back porch down the block from me as I kayaked by. (We're on a canal leading out to the bay). I was embarrassed to admit I was peeping at their stuff, but I went up and knocked on the door when the weekend came as they are working folks.

I asked, "Um, are you homebrewers?" and they looked at me strangely and say yes and offered me a beer.

And it was very very good! They invited me over for a brewday last weekend, and I went.

They are extract brewers, doing a full boil. And their beer is great. They have no inclination to do anything else.

I invited them over last night to my house for a few beers. They enjoyed my beer very much. I have an all electric 1/2 barrel HERMS, temperature control, and so on.

I don't know if they liked my beer more than theirs, and I didn't ask. Because, really, if YOU love your beer (AG, PM or extract) and are totally happy with the results then that's the best system for you.