Extract or grain?

[unionrdr]

Extract twang is a cooked extract sort of flavor. Thanks yooper for that descriptor,I've been fishing for a shorter more accurate way of describing twang. But late extract additions have elliminated it for mine. And instead of steeping grains added to extract,I started doing partial mashes with extract. Even with Cooper's cans,which seems to be tha latest craze up & coming on forums ,youtube,& the like. My dark hybrid lager being one of them. That WL029 yeast is very interesting in this regard.
So it does indeed "boil down" to your process as to the quality one gets from a brew. A good process can make good beer regardless of it's particular constituents. My extract beers come out better now that I've gotten pretty decent at PM BIAB. The flavor is best described as more refined imo. So it's not how well extract ferments compared to PM or AG,but one's own process that'll determine quality. Blame the brewer,not the brew I say!
So let's go brew some BEEEEEEEEEER!

 

[woozy]

Personally, I am a full blown DIYer. I have trouble purchasing furniture when I could easily build it. Same with temperature controllers, chillers, mlt manifolds, etc. It bothers me to use ingredients that someone else has created when I can do it myself. Granted, I haven't malted and kilned anything.

Well, I can appreciate that. I'll *never* use a cake mix. But then again I've never ground my own flour (I'll though I think I will have to someday for the experience-- once).

But then again I'm happy with using commercial mayonaisse in products when I'm perfectly capable and frequently make my own. And I usually let the deli cure my sandwich meats because they do it better than I do. A *lot* better than I do.

A deep down part of me sees using extract as cheating and always will no matter how open minded I try to be.

No Festa Brew for you, eh?

Well, I feel the same way about pre-mixed pancake and cake dry mixed (one that mix the dry ingredients together; not the instant mixes) but then logic tells me I shouldn't; surely the art of cooking isn't in following a recipe from a book and mechanically *measuring* the ingredients so why should I care if someone else measured the ingredients. But then again if the art isn't there where is it? All the rest (adding the wet ingredients, stirring, and setting the oven) is all mechanics as well.

Well, anyway, I can definitely see the idea "but extracting the wort by mashing your grains is the whole *soul* of brewing" (well, actually the whole soul of brewing is the fermentation, IMO, and we don't participate in *that* at all).

Anyway it's not that that I objected to. It was the rather blase and blanketed and lack of nuanced statement that if you can't taste the difference you might as well eat a frozen pizza and claim its as good as fresh. I just felt such an indictment *needed* to be challenged. Or at least tempered.

Anyway, I stand corrected, apparently you can taste the difference (except when you can't).

By the time most brewers get fermenting down, they have already switched to all grain.

Probably. But lets not lose sight that this is a post on the *Beginners* Beer Brewing Forum.

 

[unionrdr]

I wouldn't say that's true 100% of the time. I moved up to PB/PM BIAB,but still like AE since my process improved that makes any beer brewed better.

 

[woozy]

It sounds like you're saying that tomatoes from the grocery store are equal to canned tomato soup.

No. but I *am* saying that for the purposes of cooking canned tomatoes are *better* than grocery store tomatoes. (Revelatory anecdote to come).

However tomato paste is, I have to admit, vile stuff. (But even still it has its purposes.)

So the question is, is LME more similar to canned tomatoes or to tomato paste. I'll admit, I began my arguments with the assumption that it was more similar to canned tomatoes but the reality is that as you are boiling away to syrup and pasturizing it, that it's probably closer to tomato paste. (Although powdered milk might be a better and more palatable analogy.)

But then again comparing wort to tomatoes is like comparing wort to tomatoes.

==== Revelatory anecdote =====

So a few years ago I'm making a tomato based pasta sauce. I'm using store bought tomatoes, of course, because I consider myself far too superior and sensitive a cook to use anything as declasse as canned tomatoes.

"Are those store bought tomatoes," my friend asks, "they aren't very good, you know."

I do know. It's a storage and shipping issue. They are picked under ripe and allowed to ripen and mature in storage and on the shelf. The result is that they tend to be rather flavorless. My grocery has a wide variety of tomatoes that range from terrible to somewhat acceptable. If you can become friends with someone who grows her own tomatoes-- do it, even if you have to endure endless stories and her cats and her ugly child's sousaphone recitals.

"Yeah," I shrug, "but what choice do I have?"

"You can use canned tomatoes," she suggests.

I make a chuffling noise. I really don't want to insult my friend but she has just revealed she is not the person I thought her to be. So I'm not really sure how to react.

"These tomatoes never had a chance to ripen," she says. "Canned tomatoes have all been ripened and have reached and been preserved at their peak flavor."

....Oh....

 

[amandabab]

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKD9LKqU-Qo[/ame]

 

[Yooper]

So the question is, is LME more similar to canned tomatoes or to tomato paste. ..

No, I'd liken it more to canned tomato soup. Here's one reason why- it's condensed greatly. In that aspect, it'd be like tomato paste.

The next reason is that few (if any) extracts I know are are "pure XX grain". What I mean is that pale extract might be US 2 row, plus some carapils. Or, some base malt (two-row) plus some crystal malt. Even the pilsen extract of some brands contains "other" grains.

Extract is condensed far below any brewer would ever make it, and then the brewer reconstitutes it. Also, it's got "other" grains and things in it. That's why I likened it to tomato soup vs. fresh tomatoes.

 

[woozy]

Fair 'muff. Tomato paste adds crap too.

Extract is sounding sounding less and less like the rehydratable "condensed malt" that I first took it to be.

 

[Yooper]

Fair 'muff. Tomato paste adds crap too.

Extract is sounding sounding less and less like the rehydratable "condensed malt" that I first took it to be.

No, it is "condensed malt". But it's not usually 100% base malt- there are other malts in there too often as I mentioned. Also, the canned malt extract can taste different than the LME that you can buy in jugs at homebrew stores.

The stuff in jugs you can buy (vs the stuff in cans) is usually pretty good if the store is busy with a good turnover. Sure, it's still condensed but they have it in big vats that are airtight, and served it out with inert gas (argon? Nitrogen? I dunno) so it avoids oxidation and darkening better than the canned stuff that is usually imported and so already old when you get it.

In general, I'd suggest buying the palest and freshest extract you can find and stay away from "amber extract" or "dark extract" as those especially have other malts than base malts in them.

There are other work-arounds also, like adding the majority of the extract at flame out to avoid excess maillard reactions, so that extract brewers can make a quality and good tasting beer. It's just very important to start with the best quality extract and avoid the canned stuff (or worse, the prehopped canned stuff!).

 

[unionrdr]

Avoid them unless you're me. I make some good beers out of Cooper's cans since I started. Drinkin one that I added a partial mash to with kolsh yeast. You're only limited by your imagination & current skill level. Like minded friends can help if they're knowledgable,not just noobs with great expectations. You can always add a littl more bittering to such cans when tweaking fermentables & hops,adding decoctions,etc.
I've noticed as I learned & experimented,I gained experiences I otherwise wouldn't that work repeatedly for me & my process. This last time,one of the hybrid lagers I brewed used a Thomas Cooper's Selection Heritage Lager can. I turned it into a dark lager hybrid with grains & WL029 yeast. Smooth with a nice lil crispness to it & a hint of spice. Also very clear amber brown color. A little expensive,as that particular can is $25 just about anywhere,plus the other constituents.
So buying pale extracts to me also means,say,a pale ale can I add grains,hops,etc to to make it another style that is similar,but different. The late additions also are a very good idea. I can brew light lager/pilsner colored beers using the late extract method. Especially with PB/PM BIAB. Just learn what really works & what doesn't,& move forward from there.