Extract or all grains

[NordeastBrewer77]

Really, it takes you an extra 3-3.5 hours to mash?

No, did I imply that it did? Depending on the beer, with a single infusion I rest at '~150-155 degrees for 45-90 mins. That's three quarters to one and a half hours for the actual mash. Before that though, I need to heat coolish water to ~165 in order to have strike water in which to mash. At the end of the sacch rest, I then sparge. Being a BIAB brewer, this requires me to dunk my grains in ~190 degree water in order to reach ~168 for ~5-10 minutes. I then combine wort and sparge, squeeze my sack and turn the fire on for the boil. It then takes around 20-30 mins to bring ~7 gal of wort from ~168 to a rolling boil. Also, the added set up and clean up for AG takes me ~10 mins. All in all, and according to the timer on my software, AG batches take me an extra couple few hours, depending on rest and boil times. I'm not making this up, this is based on brewing weekly, about one fourth of those beers being extract with grains batches. I did an extract beer ~9 days ago and an AG just this Sunday. So, again, I think you might be exaggerating.

 

[jetmac]

Really, it takes you an extra 3-3.5 hours to mash? (well I was exagerating a bit but not that much)

No, did I imply that it did?

Yes you did.

My avg AG brew day is 5.5-6 hours, I can get an extract batch done, pitched and in the cooler in under 2.5 hours.

All in all, and according to the timer on my software, AG batches take me an extra couple few hours,

6 hours for AG- 2.5 hours for extract = 3.5 hours longer

 

[jetmac]

Before that though, I need to heat coolish water to ~165 in order to have strike water in which to mash.

0 min extra

You have to heat water to pour extract into so you can't count that.

At the end of the sacch rest, I then sparge. Being a BIAB brewer, this requires me to dunk my grains in ~190 degree water in order to reach ~168 for ~5-10 minutes.

Okay, 5-10 min extra here.

I then combine wort and sparge, squeeze my sack and turn the fire on for the boil. It then takes around 20-30 mins to bring ~7 gal of wort from ~168 to a rolling boil.

0 min extra

You have to boil wort made from extract also.

Also, the added set up and clean up for AG takes me ~10 mins.

I don't think it's 10 min extra. You have to open cans and pour and scrape out extract. But I'll give it to you.

That's 20 min in all. Plus 1 hour for mashing. 1 hour 20 min extra to brew all grain. 35 min more than I said to begin with if you mash for 1 hour.

Not all that much extra time to brew AG . The way devils4ever put it,

Do 2 or 3 extract brews first to get down the process and then decide if homebrewing is for you and if you are willing to commit the time and money to switch.

it made it sound like hours and hours. Plus the money saved buying grains instead of extract should pay for the mash tun soon enough.

So, again, I think you might be exaggerating.

Nah, I think you might be.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

0 min extra

You have to heat water to pour extract into so you can't count that.



Okay, 5-10 min extra here.



0 min extra

You have to boil wort made from extract also.



I don't think it's 10 min extra. You have to open cans and pour and scrape out extract. But I'll give it to you.

That's 20 min in all. Plus 1 hour for mashing. 1 hour 20 min extra to brew all grain. 35 min more than I said to begin with if you mash for 1 hour.

Not all that much extra time to brew AG . The way devils4ever put it,
it made it sound like hours and hours. Plus the money saved buying grains instead of extract should pay for the mash tun soon enough.




Nah, I think you might be.

Great rant. Maybe I'm exaggerating, maybe my last AG brew day was six mins under 5:30 hrs. That's just according to the BeerSmith timer (5:24:49, from when I first turned on the burner to when I pitched yeast) though, so who knows, maybe BeerSmith's exaggerating.
Really, I don't get your point.... does it matter to you that my brew days are ~5 hrs for AG and ~3, maybe a hair less for extract? Is it bothersome that I take longer than you? Maybe you should explain for me how you get your day over so quickly and I'll give it a try and see how it works on my system.....

I do want to say that my last brew day involved a 90 min boil, and a 20 min steep of the aroma hops, thus the 5 1/2 hours. With a 60 min single infusion, 60 min boil and no aroma steep, I'm in at ~4 1/2 hours. I hope that's ok with you. And I hope that on the extract batch I'm brewing less it doesn't offend anyone that I may take upwards of two and a half-three hours.

FWIW, you still didn't show me where I implied that it took 3 hours to mash. I only said my AG brew day happens to be 2-3 hours longer that my extract brew day, BECAUSE IT IS!

 

[Pappers_]

For me, four hours start to finish with all-grain, two hours with extract. Mash time and sparge time add up.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

For me, four hours start to finish with all-grain, two hours with extract. Mash time and sparge time add up.

I can't wait til I can get everything down so perfectly that I can say that. 4 1/2 is a fast day, and I can only do that with 60 min rests and boils. I brew a lot of English styles, so a lot of 90 min rests and 70-90 min boils for me. I've been brewing for a couple years, AG since last fall-ish, so I'm still getting everything dialed in. One day Pappers, one day!

 

[tgreene7]

So many variables. If you have a local HBS store that has drums of liquid malt extracts, start with that. Have them put a simple recipe together, extract, hops, and yeast, with some instructions. I prefer the bulk liquid extract from the drums over those little one batch cans. I have made very good beer this way. I have not been happy with my results with the DME, only time I have ever made undrinkable beer. I am sure it was user error.

All that being said, I prefer my all grain beers. I think I made about five extract batches before, I switched to all grain. This is a slippery slope, I also think kegging was the biggest improvement to the quality and taste of my beer. Like I said so many variables to brewing. Just start with extract, and buy the biggest kettle you can afford. The kettle is the most expensive piece of equipment you have to buy, no reason to buy it twice.

 

[bleme]

I did a partial mash last night, starting at 9PM and sealed up at 12:49AM. It wasn't a full boil so it could have taken longer to reach boil and longer to cool down. Most of clean-up had to wait until this morning.

 

[jetmac]

Really, I don't get your point!

The point is, you have stated it takes you 2.5 hours to brew extract and up to 6 hours to brew all grain. The major difference being how you get your wort. You either buy it or you make it.

That's a difference of 3.5 hours. I don't think it takes 3.5 hours to mash grain.

So if you're that slow, fine. but lets not make it look like everyone has to dedicate hours upon grueling hours of extra time and cash to brew all grain.

That is my point, that some of the responders are trying to steer the OP away from AG brewing because "you have to commit so much extra time and money" "you need to start with extract because it's so much simpler and cheaper and it can be done in minuets". "learn your processes" blah blah blah. That's B.S. (sorry if I sound like a d_ick, I'm not, it just irritates me that AG is put on such a high pedestal when it's just as simple to do as extract. Give the facts. Yes it will take longer to AG[not 3 hours extra] Yes, initial layout of $$ will be more. [not hundreds more] Yes, it does add extra steps.[but it's not complicated to mash grain])

I would like to see him start out with AG but if he wants to start with extract, I'm not gonna tell him he shouldn't. AG is way more fun(even though I've never extract brewed) and I feel more connected to my brewing knowing I made my own wort. Someday I hope to freeze my own yeast. (or whatever you call it when you keep it on petree dishes) I wish it was feasable to grow my own grain and malt it.

Not ranting, just saying.

 

[jetmac]

Is it bothersome that I take longer than you?

Not at all. It's your time. I just don't see where you are taking an extra 3 hours. So you're telling the OP this and that makes him think he should start with extract.

 

[jetmac]

I do want to say that my last brew day involved a 90 min boil, and a 20 min steep of the aroma hops, thus the 5 1/2 hours. With a 60 min single infusion, 60 min boil and no aroma steep, I'm in at ~4 1/2 hours. I hope that's ok with you. And I hope that on the extract batch I'm brewing less it doesn't offend anyone that I may take upwards of two and a half-three hours.!

I really don't care, you're missing the point.

How long would it have taken you to make that same beer with extract?

 

[jetmac]

FWIW, you still didn't show me where I implied that it took 3 hours to mash. I only said my AG brew day happens to be 2-3 hours longer that my extract brew day, BECAUSE IT IS!

FWIW you haven't shown where it takes any longer.

The only major difference is the way you get your wort, and it doesn't take most people 3.5 hours to mash grains.

 

[passedpawn]

I for the life of me have a hard time deciding which one is making the best beer.

...

which is best and which method gives you the better quality or freedom to make beery to your liking?

All things being equal, you'll brew better beer with all-grain. It also gives you much more freedom in what you brew. I think those are your questions, and I'm pretty sure most of the experienced brewers here feel this way.

Sometimes this board is maddening.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

The point is, you have stated it takes you 2.5 hours to brew extract and up to 6 hours to brew all grain. The major difference being how you get your wort. You either buy it or you make it.

That's a difference of 3.5 hours. I don't think it takes 3.5 hours to mash grain.

So if you're that slow, fine. but lets not make it look like everyone has to dedicate hours upon grueling hours of extra time and cash to brew all grain.

Dude, again, I never said it took 3.5 hours to mash, I said that it takes extra time because of mashing, sparging, etc., and I also said that on the high side my AG beers take 5-6 hrs. Combining those two statements into 'it takes 3 hrs to mash' is the basis of your argument here.
I even said that when I said I thought you were lowballing the added time that I wasn't trying to imply that AG is any harder that extract. I never said AG was anything close to 'grueling', those were your words. If you go back and read my posts, one of the first things I said was along the lines of AG being as easy as extract.
Really, let's be real here, if you add 90 minutes of mash time, and the time it takes to heat water and sparge, we're talking extra time. Whether it's 2 hrs, 2.5 hrs or 35 years, it adds time. Maybe 5.5 - 6 hrs is on the high side of it, but c'mon, does it really matter that much? Again, sorry if my being 'that slow' bothers you, man, but really......

 

[Golddiggie]

I started with extract (with specialty grain) brewing. Since I'm a bit of a nut (ask anyone) I had to tweak the recipes early on (from the first in fact) and then start making my own (from the third batch). Batch #4 was a BIAB partial mash (more like all grain with a couple of #'s of DME ), to see how it would be different. That sealed it for me, I went all grain. Did some BIAB before making a couple of cooler mash tuns before going to the keg mash tun I use now.

Process to make the beer aside (you can make either great, or nasty beer with either, it depends on YOU), I brew all grain more for recipe control and final product results. With all grain I KNOW what malts/grains are in my brew. With extract, you're never 100% certain of the content of the DME/LME. I also crush the grain on brew day, typically less than two hours before I start mashing.

Depending on your comfort level, and how fast you pick things up, I would ensure you got the base processes down for brewing first. I'm not talking so much about the boil, since that's pretty basic, more along the line of proper sanitation, wort cooling, wort aeration/oxygenation, pitching proper amounts of yeast, doing what you can to control fermenation temperature (of the wort, ambient isn't what we're talking about) and such. Then start generating your own recipes. Once you're comfortable making your own recipes decide if you want to go all grain, or even partial mash. You can try BIAB first, to see how you like the process and then decide if you want to go with an actual mash tun. With most of my brews, using BIAB would mean trying to lift/hold a bag containing 15-25# of grain, while it drains. Not something my back would be too happy about. With a mash tun, you don't lift the grain to drain, you drain the grain.

If there are any brewing events in your area, or within reasonable travel distance, try attending a couple. Pick the brains of the brewers that are using either different methods, or different hardware to find out why they use what they do. A lot of us have changed hardware early on, as well as continue to alter/evolve what we use. Personally, I'm often looking at what I can improve to either streamline the brew day/process or get a better end product. I don't care if it's going to save me a little time, if it doesn't either make for better beer at the end (even only slightly) then I'm not making the change. Just trying to shave a few minutes off a brew day isn't enough for me.

 

[BrewByLos]

All things being equal, you'll brew better beer with all-grain. It also gives you much more freedom in what you brew. I think those are your questions, and I'm pretty sure most of the experienced brewers here feel this way.

Sometimes this board is maddening.

I started with extract. I wanted to focus on ferm temps, yeast starters, and sanitization. I personally felt going AG would introduce more variables than I wanted to worry about until I was comfortable with the process. Water PH, mash temp, strike water temp... I would recommend extract for beginners, but if you decide to go AG first it's all good you'll make beer. Your beer!

Only two more extract batches until I go BIAB AG. Going to tackle full volume boil next. Yup.

 

[devils4ever]

It takes me at least 4 1/2 hours for AG batches (probably closer to 5+ hours) and it definitely takes more skill to do than extract. This is why I suggested starting with extract. Why make things complicated when you are just learning.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

It takes me at least 4 1/2 hours for AG batches (probably closer to 5+ hours) and it definitely takes more skill to do than extract. This is why I suggested starting with extract. Why make things complicated when you are just learning.

That's what I've been trying to get at. Personally, I don't think AG takes more skill, but more knowledge (which you gain by brewing) and definitely more att'n to detail for sure.
I totally agree that starting with extract is a great way to learn the ropes, so to speak. You can focus on the really important things that span all types of brewing like pitch rates, temp control, learning the basic brewing process, etc. Sure, there's no reason not to start AG brewing right off the bat, but I feel extract brewing makes it seem far less complicated that AG.

 

[Schmutzie]

To the OP

I am 6 months into my second stint of homebrewing, and in both cases I started out with extract brewing and moved on to all grain. Either way, you can make great beers you are thrilled to drink and proud to share…

Brewing sessions for extract are definitely quicker (approx. 2 to 2.5 hours vs. 4.5 to 5 hours in my experience) but no less ‘fulfilling’. I am actually debating going back to extract because I can brew after my son and wife go to bed and still be on my couch with a beer in hand by midnight – with all grain I usually devote 6:30am to noon (or longer) on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

My advice (which may be worth every penny you’ve spent on it), is to get a 5 gallon stainless steel pot (about $25) and start with partial boil extract batches and focus on the after boil aspects of brewing where you are likely to run into the most problems. Oh, I’ve used both LME and DME and find I like DME much more…

Once you have some success and decide to stick with the hobby, then you can choose to invest the time and cash into all grain – I still use my 5 gallon pot to heat up strike water, so it need not be a wasted investment.

Now, having said all that, all grain need not be a huge investment, through my last batch this weekend I used a plastic bucket with a false bottom for my mash tun and batch sparge (no need for a HLT). For my next batch I am going to use a 10-gallon Rubbermaid cooler with a few modifications (still pretty inexpensive).

Welcome to the obsession – oops I mean hobby! Oh, this site is a wealth of information almost all questions I have had have been answered here a couple of dozen times.

Good luck with whichever option you choose!

-Schmutzie

 

[iambeer]

I agree with starting with grain as soon as possible. The only extra I spent was $25 at home depot for a cooler and nylon bags.

All grain adds the dimension that makes you feel like you are brewing beer. Extract is nice if you don't want the extra effort, or are in a hurry. 4 hours in a week for me is huge, so I totally get the convenience of extract and partial.

Speaking as newb, you can't mess up too badly with grain. And you learn much more quickly about beer.

 

[Antler]

I agree with starting with grain as soon as possible. The only extra I spent was $25 at home depot for a cooler and nylon bags.

All grain adds the dimension that makes you feel like you are brewing beer. Extract is nice if you don't want the extra effort, or are in a hurry. 4 hours in a week for me is huge, so I totally get the convenience of extract and partial.

Speaking as newb, you can't mess up too badly with grain. And you learn much more quickly about beer.

+1. I did 2-3 box/can kits before I started researching and collecting all grain equipment.

 

[MMJfan]

I'm not going to dispute that AG brewing makes better beers and give you more flexibility to make more variations of beers. However, as the father of 3 girls under the age of 9, I just don't have the time or the energy to devote to the 4-5 hours to simply brew the beer, not to mention the time needed to develop my recipes and such.

To me, it's about personal preference. I am perfectly content (at the moment) making extract brews. I have a IIPA that I sampled my first bottle last weekend and it was damn tasty! And I honestly don't see how much better an AG version of the beer I made would have tasted. Not to mention, I've been enjoying craft beers for many years now and I would put my IIPA extract up against any craft beer I've ever had. I've even brewed 'homebrews' at a place outside of Cleveland using their equipment and my IPA is hands down better than anything I brewed at their brewery.

I didn't get into homebrewing because I wanted to someday become a master brewer. I got into homebrewing because I love beer and I thought it would be fun to make my own and have the pleasure of knowing that I made the beer that I'm drinking. I will say, if my extracts continue to turn out as good as my IIPA, I see no reason to ever switch to AG.

Again, nothing against AG, just my personal preference due to time constraints and convenience and whatnot...

 

[ludomonster]

If you're heating your water with an electric stove, I recommend against full boils. It will take exponentially longer to bring the water to a boil than it would for a partial boil. For safety reasons, you should have a way to transfer that much water to other vessels that doesn't involve lifting. The only time I lift the 5.5 gallons is when I move the carboy to it's fermentation location, and even that is a delicate maneuver.

If you do any cooking, you'll find a use for your 3-4 gallon pots: corn, soups, steaming, etc.

My brother-in-law started extract brewing in his apartment. He's buying a house soon and I'll probably help him set up some basic fermentation temperature control before he goes all-grain. I'm a partial grain brewer myself because I brew at another friend's apartment. He's about to make the jump from partial grain to all grain.