Explosive decompression!!

[BrewBeemer]

Electric is generally more expensive than NG or Propane. Gas used to be wayyy cheaper, but electric is still more expensive than gas even considering inefficiency.

Blue Rino propane in my area for a 3.5 gallon fill bottle exchange is $23.95 or $6.84 a gallon. Last specs read off a members a commercial NG steam heated 12 gallon unit had 65% efficiency. This makes electricity rather cheap in my area which is cheaper than PG&E customers pay off the grid.

 

[kladue]

The silver soldered screen in the old mixer is 7 years old and still sound, the new mixer only has an hour or two on it as testing opportunities are limited to once a month. You need the 56% silver content solder and the staysilv flux, but a microtorch will get the job done. The old mixer is similar to the picture shown, but the screen is soldered to the port connector fitting between the tees on the old system.
The flash boiler makes startup a matter of minutes to heat strike water, then with low flow you make superheated steam for wort heating, to step mash, then turn water flow up and heat sparge at the end. With all water and steam going to the mash tun you do not touch the plumbing during brewing, just adjust water flow and fire as needed. During wort heating the fire level is adjusted with a needle valve in the burner gas line to control temperature, and temperature rise across heater lets you send wort back to mash at next step temperature.
Old system gets about 3 brews from a 5 Gallon tank, I do not know what new system will get from 7 gallon tank.

 

[GreenMonti]

None of them use steam to boil the wort, and I think this also is due to inefficiency.

Almost..........I am going too. I followed Kladues boiler and built the copper version he referenced too. I have boiled water on many occasions with my flash boiler. While I don't have the perfect sientific equipment to know the precise flow of gas to my rig. I figure I will get about 8-10 batches out of a 20lb tank. My build thread is stalled out right now due to time constraints. But that is exactly what I'm building.https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/full-monti-179621/

I have another thread on my boiler build too. I'll have to find it.

I don't use the Blue Rhino as it just too much money. Next to the BIG tank where the guy fills mine up at, is a Rhino cage. I asked him straight out one time why in the heck anyone would pay so much for the same gas. He looked at me funny then did the math in his head........all he could do was shrug his shoulders and smile.

Here is an old pic of my boiler

This is the inside coils.

 

[GreenMonti]

Just for fun here is a video of my steam jacketed boil using my boiler.

 

[orangehero]

Sorry Monti, didn't mean to leave you out. Hadn't read through your threads yet...everything is sexy though.

Kladue, you posted elsewhere that your homebrew club experimented with pressure cooker steam injection mashing but gave up on it. Could you please elaborate on your experiences? What exactly was the overwhelming downside to the method?

 

[Clayton]

Then I think you should know better. Operating a home-built steam pressure vessel may well be illegal. I have no doubt you have the capability to build and operate a steam boiler. I do have serious doubts about whether you should actually do so. Your insurance company would probably frown on the idea too.

Buzz off catt22 you code monkey, if you cant help with the science then just shut up and leave , the post title was not "need doughting tommas mother goose to crush creative minds with bureaucracy and can't do attitude"


there is not way to inject super heated water in to a vessle at atmospheric presser, but i dont know why you would want too,, that "problem? ,," is the point, the heat -matter phase change problem is how its going to heat your stuff up .. just set up a dip tube from the bottom of the boiler , at the tip of the hose some of the water will change to steam, do to lower atmospheric presser , but will give up that heat to the target and convert back to water in milliseaconds. there is really no point in precooling,, the temp change of water (at fix pressure) is liner 1cal 1 gram 1 deagee,, the magic is when there is a phase change ice ,water, steam, you get lots and lots of calore-newton differential

to pre cool the water to 100C would be like useing 32f water to cool your ice tea reather than ICE . sure you could do it with 10x as much waterign down your drink all the wile.... use the super heated water from the presser cooker boiler, with a ball valve and just slowly add the water at a rate that the steam does not break the surface much..

i do the same thing with a pressure cooker for step mashes,, i run steam backward up the manfold of my mash tund, works great

 

[BrewBeemer]

i'm not going to certify my boiler, and i'm not going to sell it. Besides, My dad is a PE and has been welding for years. I'm not concerned about needing certificates to build my system.

Please people, I obviously am aware of the dangers involved and understand the risk in undertaking this method. That's the whole point of this post. How do I safely pull liquid water from a boiler?

Thanks for your concern, now help me solve the problem!

"Rag Heads" can also build a nuclear bomb with the proper components but not know how it works.
I've been around live steam model engines that need the boilers certified every year, must be a reason why?????? It doesn't matter what degrees you have they still need to be certified, Berkeley Rad Lab Techs included.

 

[Catt22]

Buzz off catt22 you code monkey, if you cant help with the science then just shut up and leave , the post title was not "need doughting tommas mother goose to crush creative minds with bureaucracy and can't do attitude"


there is not way to inject super heated water in to a vessle at atmospheric presser, but i dont know why you would want too,, that "problem? ,," is the point, the heat -matter phase change problem is how its going to heat your stuff up .. just set up a dip tube from the bottom of the boiler , at the tip of the hose some of the water will change to steam, do to lower atmospheric presser , but will give up that heat to the target and convert back to water in milliseaconds. there is really no point in precooling,, the temp change of water (at fix pressure) is liner 1cal 1 gram 1 deagee,, the magic is when there is a phase change ice ,water, steam, you get lots and lots of calore-newton differential

to pre cool the water to 100C would be like useing 32f water to cool your ice tea reather than ICE . sure you could do it with 10x as much waterign down your drink all the wile.... use the super heated water from the presser cooker boiler, with a ball valve and just slowly add the water at a rate that the steam does not break the surface much..

i do the same thing with a pressure cooker for step mashes,, i run steam backward up the manfold of my mash tund, works great

Safety should always come first dummy. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Buzz off catt22 you code monkey, if you cant help with the science then just shut up and leave , the post title was not "need doughting tommas mother goose to crush creative minds with bureaucracy and can't do attitude"


there is not way to inject super heated water in to a vessle at atmospheric pressure, but i dont know why you would want too,, that "problem? ,," is the point, the heat -matter phase change problem is how its going to heat your stuff up .. just set up a dip tube from the bottom of the boiler , at the tip of the hose some of the water will change to steam, do to lower atmospheric presser , but will give up that heat to the target and convert back to water in milliseaconds. there is really no point in precooling,, the temp change of water (at fix pressure) is liner 1cal 1 gram 1 deagee,, the magic is when there is a phase change ice ,water, steam, you get lots and lots of calore-newton differential

Granted your talking injecting water at zero to slightly above atmospheric pressures converting to steam as well within your safe pressures, this practice is way over the eyes of the law regarding safe guidelines with steam generating vessels. Even with small scale steam train engines they must be inspected and certified every year. BTW get off Catt22's case he just stated the facts regarding safety! Unless you know more about steam boilers with model locomotives and their annual certifications I beg to believe your blowing smoke up your stack. Sorry to be harsh i've been around these model train boilers for over 50 years going thru certifications. Nuff said, PROSIT!

 

[Clayton]

he did not ask for your safty input did he?
you have nothign to add here go away he has said he does not want your BS he wants can do.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Who may this be, catt22, nope just my opinions. Your up late tonight Clayton, Jay Leno's on the left coast then meds and bed.

 

[Clayton]

Granted your talking injecting water at zero to slightly above atmospheric pressures converting to steam as well within your safe pressures, this practice is way over the eyes of the law reguarding safe guidelines with steam generating vessels. Even with small scale steam train engines they must be inspected and certified every year. BTW get off Catt22's case he just stated the facts regarding safety! Unless you know more about steam boilers with model locomotives and their annual certifications I beg to believe your blowing smoke up your stack. Sorry to be harsh i've been around these model train boilers for over 50 years going thru certifications. Nuff said, PROSIT!

you do understand states rights? i hope ,,what is done where you live does not consern any other person but people liveing in your state, he is not runing a vessle for the public or to be worked on by the public he does not need all your certifications. there is no reason he would ever build any thing over 15~20 psi . locomotives boilers run @ or about 190 psi , we arnt even talking about the same ball park. lots of brewer on this site use steam for brewing, in the same mannor its used in kitchens ,, please shut up about your locomotives and talk turkey, as in how to poatch a turkey in a steam jacket kettle or pressure cooker.

 

[Bubba_Mustafa]

you need a bunch of welding certifications to be able to weld a steam boiler.

Not really. if going into a commercial/public place, yes. If charging for the service or end product, yes.

Now your home owners insurance may object.

You could get the welds x-rayed or sonic checked and pressure tested and get a cert for the job.

 

[kladue]

The age old problem with the pressure cooker steam source and direct mash injection was twofold, steam generating capacity, and noise from steam injection. The pressure cooker could generate steam but lacked the capacity for larger steps in 10 gallon batches, and the only way we found to get steam needed was to overfire the pressure cooker by a factor of 5 times suggested heat input. The other problem was the immediate heat transfer from steam to mash around the injection point meant that you had to stir like crazy to try to distribute the heat and guess when to shut down the steam. Add to that the popping and rumbling of the collapsing steam bubbles as the steam hit the cooler mash we decided that it was possible to do steps but not a friendly process.
While working on a continuous starch cooker system for the paper industry i found that they injected steam into the circulating starch solution for heating and it operated quietly while using medium pressure steam. I did a bit of research and copied the operating principal and went on to build an instant water heater/steam generator to supply steam. The boiler design and operation I use do not allow more than 16 Oz of water to be heated at any time and with a 60 - 100K btu burner firing it you have more than enough capacity for water and steam. Without any boiler discharge valving the pressure can only build up to the system back pressure at the mixer, and testing old boiler by dry firing the SS coils to orange hot and firing the water pump did not damage the boiler or plumbing. With the small heated volume it falls below the ASME size requirements for testing and licensing as code document research has found.
I find the various boiler comments by others quite humorous as I have installed and tuned boilers of various sizes and operating pressures over the years and am reasonably familiar with the ASME power piping and boiler codes, and have an in-house QC consultant to refer code and operating license questions to. I try to refrain from commenting on the various approaches to steam generation used and let the builders deal with their own problems as it is not productive to be throwing comments at everything without factual backing.