Explain your hypothetical "pro" brewery...

[DeBrewer]

I looked around and didn't find a thread for what I am looking for. I don't want to know brand etc.. I want to know method, size, style equipment, reasoning,.... for your hypothetical or real brewery but be conscious of cost. This is not what your DREAM brewery would be but more of a if you made the decision to go pro what would you buy and why? I think most of us have the dream so I want to understand the thoughts of others as to what type of brewery they would start with. It seems that a 3bbl is the standard for most newbies so lets kind of use that as a focal point.

I want to know if you would go out and buy all new equipment or save money and try to buy/build a brew setup that may be quirky. Would you have multiple fermenters instead of one big one for a 3bbl batch? Would you find a large enough kettle to brew one batch to fill a fermenter or would you brew multiple batches since the smaller kettles are cheaper. Would you filter? Would you run all jacketed everything or would you have a cooler with brite tanks and jacketed fermenters or no brite tanks at all. Would you use glycol and furnace or some other heating/cooling source? All bottles, all kegs, mixed basket?

I want to know what your brewery would look like and the method you would use to run it. As with most I toy with the idea and there are a lot of options so I want to know the driving factors in how you would setup a brewery. Let's not get into a debate on who's method is best, more of an exploratory endeavor as to what you would use and why. Cheers!

 

[tchuklobrau]

Only fact i have worked out so far is to go 7bbl. Can't remember the site i was on but they sell used brewery equipment, as well as make new. they said under 7 was a waste of time and money. the cost of the equipment on 3-5 bbl was 2 high versus the labor needed to keep up with any real demand. Also i said go big or stay home.
mixed bag on the bottle/keg

 

[DeBrewer]

You may be correct on the 7bbl stuff. I have seen the 7 for not much more than the 3-5 but then a 10 isn't much more than that so I have to wonder where is the line. In essence a 10 bbl vs 5 bbl isn't twice the price but is twice the volume but does that mean that you will spend 4 times the original amount to keep up with the other associated equipment? I don't know and there isn't a definitive answer since the value of used equipment varies but that is what I am looking for. What do you all think is a sound approach for a fledgling brewery with the intent of being fairly local.

Thank you tchuklobrau for your reply!

 

[weirdboy]

I know some local folks that started with a 7bbl system and within a few months they were upgrading to 20bbl fermenters because they ran out of capacity. So I think if I had to do it I'd start with at least a 10 bbl brewing system and larger fermenters.

 

[DeBrewer]

I know some local folks that started with a 7bbl system and within a few months they were upgrading to 20bbl fermenters because they ran out of capacity. So I think if I had to do it I'd start with at least a 10 bbl brewing system and larger fermenters.

Wow. I would love to have that problem some day.... Do you know how they sold their 7bbl if they did sell it? I check out ProBrewer regularly but there seems to be a small amount of people that really use it as compared to the number of pro brewers out there. I hear of stuff selling all the time but typically is done all word of mouth...

 

[Austin_]

My brewpub would have a small movie theater (10-20 seats) and serve Indian food as well as bar food. That's about as far as I've got.

 

[rycov]

don't have time to explain it now cuz i'm at work : ( i'll come back later and do it (just wanted to post something so it would show up in my replies and i could find this post again.)

 

[wildwest450]

My brewpub would have a small movie theater (10-20 seats) and serve Indian food as well as bar food. That's about as far as I've got.

Mine would have a pole and disco ball. And no Indian food.


_

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

Dream Brewery=Buy Sierra Nevada and put my name on it.

Realisticaly(I think), Start a little 1bbl Nano Brewery, Maintain my day job and see what happens.

 

[skeeordye11]

I'd almost be afraid to buy anything smaller than a 15bbl brewhouse with 30bbl fermenters. The 10bbl brewery that I have brewed at is at capacity and everyone double brews, hence the 30bbl fermenters. You can always grab a 15 or 20bbl fermenter for one off or special brews. I've even been to a brewery that started out as a 10bbl and had to add on stainless to some of their existing equipment to up the capacity to 15bbl. Not the prettiest equipment, but damn that beer was good! Even the local 2bbl brewery has now gone out and purchased a 15bbl fermenter from what I've heard. I think a 7bbl brewhouse is in the works with that as well however.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I'd start with a 3BBL system to do local production/keg/growler fills. If $$ allowed I'd also get the 2 can Cask canning system- start small and local and build a customer basis.

The system would be full automated (push button, all you have to do is add the grains and maybe the hops) and I would be able to run it remotely if I needed to (computer or whatever.) I'm not sure how I'd fire/heat the system. Fermentation would take in either 3 or 6 BBL jacketed conicals.

 

[esarkipato]

When you say "go pro" I imagine you are talking about doing this full time. I would get the biggest brewing vessel/system my $ would allow. However I would go for several smaller fermenters if possible. You can always brew a smaller than capacity "experimental" batch in a large system, however you would never want your fermenter to be 1/2 full. If you brew a full capacity house ale, just fill up 3 or whatever fermenters.

I have several nano/microbreweries popping up in town, and I've thought of propositioning them if/when they close down to snatch up their equipment. I'd just make good buddies with other commercial brewers in the area, if there are any. Craigslist and forums like this one may be good placed to find used systems (as long as they are SS, I don't think I'd care if it was used equipment).

 

[curlyfat]

I started with a business plan to operate a 1bbl package brewery as a one-man operation. Once I did all the research, unit-cost analysis, state laws, etc., I realized it would be a full time job with almost no profit (no chance of doing it from my own property, so all unit-profits would go to rent/utilities).

So I modified it to a 3bbl with a tasting room, selling to local businesses (which I had several very interested ones). I couldn't make the numbers work for a quit-my-job kind of income.

Then I worked the numbers for 7bbl, and it would be profitable if I could go full-on production right out of the gate. However, I don't have the capital to go that route, and I really don't want to borrow that kind of money with a young family.

I wanted to do kegs sold to bars/restaurants rather than running a full brew-pub because I've been running a restaurant for 10 years, and that's not what I want to do forever!

So, I'm back to brewing for the pure enjoyment of it, and thinking, "Someday, someday....maybe."

 

[PleasantValleyHops]

So, I'm back to brewing for the pure enjoyment of it, and thinking, "Someday, someday....maybe."

i like this.. my brother and i have been talking about it for quite some time.. even before we started brewing ourselves, we've always loved beer and going to the local brewpubs and what not.. i personally think you def have to go with the biggest kettle setup possible. and u can pick up the 1bbl fermenters for a little over a 1-1500, so you could do 10 of those and then just rotate them as needed, people have started with less. including "dogfish", but i do feel you almost have to do brewpub to start so you can make a name for yourself as a brewer and as this guy would know, you make you money on your food.. i live in a smediam town with great feel to it, its all what you make of it and how bad you want it and youll succeed!

but i love the brewing thinking "Someday, someday" quote.. thats what i think even when im not brewing.

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

I'm with most of what's said above. If I went pro, I'd go as big as I could up front. My dream is a brewpub in France (Bordeaux) and I'd want a minimum 10 barrel system, 12-15 being ideal. It would really come down to a real estate question. Go as big as you have space for. Fermentation space is the biggest issue. Temp control for gigantic batches uses a lot of energy an requires some specific space design...

 

[DeBrewer]

I have spoken with a few breweries and they said from their standpoint you need to grow your system backwards. In essence get your packaging capacity built up then get your fermentation capacity built up then upgrade your MLT. The reason is that if you produce more beer than you can package then your wasting it and you can brew multiple batches to fill a fermenter.... Just some food for thought.

I have been designing my own bottling system so hopefully I can test that out with my homebrew setup and expand it accordingly and then that allows me to focus more on the logistical side of volume with tanks and kettles. A guy here locally brews three barrel batches and bottles all of it by hand with a capper.... I don't want to be that guy He bottles all weekend every weekend. He's moving product but super inefficient. And teh brew isn't that good. :cross:

 

[Homebrewtastic]

I worked up a business plan for a brewery early on last year as it is my long term goal to open up a brewery. For a new 20 bbl system with fermenters, installed, a space to rent 6 months working capital, bottling line keg filler/washer and kegs it would cost around $400K... so I figured actually $500k.

From all of the numbers I crunched a 20bbl brewhouse with 40 bbl fermenters is the smallest you can go and maintain a decent profitability. You can make money on a smaller scale if you have enough fermenters and brew constantly, but not much.

 

[ksbrain]

I would also say 20 BBL. Then you can brew once a week, and have time to run the rest of the business but still get a good annual volume. And you can brew more than once a week when the time comes.

Definitely filter and everything just like a pro. Steam jacket kettle. Glycol jacket fermenters. Cold room for packaged storage waiting to go out the door. It would be nice to do kegs only, but around here that would never fly. On premise sucks for beer here. So I'd probably start all bottles.

I also like the idea of automation. I mean, it's really just a handful of valves, heaters, and pumps - and a really simple process. Seems like an obvious choice that isn't too expensive, especially compared to all that stainless steel. But then again maybe that's because automation is what I've done for work for the past ten years.

For all that I figured more like $1.5M. I don't want to run out of money in the first year and go out fundraising again. Though in all honesty if I had a million dollars I'd probably go for it.

 

[SankePankey]

From the OP, I'm supposing that you are only referring to production/packaging breweries. Certainly, 'no less than 15 bbl with 30 bbl fermenters is a waste of time' does not really hold as much weight for a pub (not that it wouldn't be nice). IMO, the size of your brewPUB system has anything and everything to do with the capacity of the restaurant and the demographic of the area. I think more pubs than not have 7 bbl systems and not 10+ (again, not that it wouldn't be nice and not that those people aren't wishing for a higher capacity system too, but we're talking about what you NEED).

For a production brewery, you are trying to make as much profit on 3, 4 or 5 beers (at least in the beginning) or something and your bottleneck is now BIG your fermenters are. In a pub, (IMHO) you are trying to be profitable with ~9 beers or so, definitely not 3, and your bottleneck is how MANY fermenters you have. Brew 3 X a week every week and you are brewing 1000 bbl a year, which is profitable and somewhere around the level that most brew pubs produce.... at least one that's not kind of an add on to an already hopping restaurant. To me, the 3 bbl and below systems are really for that market- so they can have two or three revolving taps. No one who has room for 9 fermenters is looking into a 3 bbl brewhouse.

I do agree with the idea of designing a brewery's capacity backwards. It's far more important to have more/bigger fermenters than a great big brewhouse with nothing to put wort in. I personally think that designing a brewery has mostly to do with figuring out what your beer producing philosophy is and then planning what your fermentation room looks like based on that. You can always double or triple batch (although, I don't know anyone who triple batches... ?) very well especially if you have a large HLT or a very robust tankless on-demand hot water system and never have to wait for water to heat.

 

[Weizenwerks]

Keep in mind your local market and demand as well. One local microbrewery has 16 barrel system and just last year surpassed 5400 barrels annual production. 16 barrel system with 6 fermenters.

One local brew pub started brewing a half barrel at a time and finally got a 3.5 barrel system with 3 fermenters. They brew one day a week.

Depending on your business model you could get a 1.5 barrel system like a big homebrew setup and be profitable. Profitability doesn't come with size (production) necessarily. True profitability lies in your COGS.

 

[MBasile]

For me, a 7bbl system would be the biggest I'd need, since my idea is just a small coffee shop type atmosphere with some traditional and more extreme brews on tap (maybe 1 or 2 hand pump cask ales too). Eventually a restaurant would be opened at a different location but still serving the same beers.

Breakdown of costs will be analyzed at a later date to figure out what size specifically would be most profitable without staling from slow turnover.

 

[DeBrewer]

I think we have concluded that bigger is better (no surprise) but how exactly would you define that? Would you think it would be wise to save some cash and get a smaller kettle and bigger/better fermenters etc.. or try to keep everything on the same level of capacity? I guess I want to know the logistics behind your brewery. How many fermenters, brite tanks, etc....

 

[SankePankey]

but how exactly would you define that?.

By determining your brew philosophy, basing your fermentation (and brewing frequency) schedule around that philosophy, and then plugging the numbers into a business plan you create for your location and customer base. Yeehaw

If there were one answer, everyone would do it. Do you want to do lagers and ales?... Right there is the difference between brewery A and brewery B..

 

[DeBrewer]

By determining your brew philosophy, basing your fermentation (and brewing frequency) schedule around that philosophy, and then plugging the numbers into a business plan you create for your location and customer base. Yeehaw

If there were one answer, everyone would do it. Do you want to do lagers and ales?... Right there is the difference between brewery A and brewery B..

That is what I am trying to get at, what works in YOUR mind or in actual application. I am not looking for suggestions on my hypothetical brewery, I am wanting to better understand the way that others approach it and what the pros/cons were of their specific situations or the defining factors that have been weighed in determining their brewery. It seems that most that have replied have crunched some numbers and determined what they would like to have so let's see it! If you think your area has a plausible demand of X and you have the ability to create Y amount of brew and distribute it for Z it would take T amount of time to make a profit etc... I want to know how you envision your brewery. Use this space as a canvas to portray your dreams.:fro:

 

[Monstar]

My set up would be super punk rock. Brewpub with vegan food and coffee to hopefully make $$$, and start with a 1/2-1 bbl system with a lot of fermenters in a walk in fridge. You can always brew 3 times a day if you need more beer IMO.

Local and organic is a huge thing (in Denver especially), so I would try to use as much local ingredients as possible. Maybe even a brew with a local yeast strain!

Im a frugal dude and would much rather build the whole thing and upgrade later then spend a ton of cash on a huge pimpin' brewery only to fail a short time later.

"someday..."

 

[LakewoodBrew]

I've looked at the economics of it several times, anything less than a 8.5 BBL brewhouse with 3x17 BBL fermenters + 2 brite tanks and you will be working like a slave to your brewery IMHO. Given the fixed cost of operating a brewery in a metropolitan area, you need enough volume to get the incremental costs into a reasonable range. Eveyone I've talke to with smaller brewhouses are basically at max capacity at all times and barely making enough profit to be sustainable. You need to have a growth path if you want to endure.

That said, a little brewery with on-site sales of our own + other local micros, with live music on Friday evenings and a low key atmosphere is my vision. Local distribution to watering holes around the region would keep the lights on and move enough product to keep the gears turning.

 

[billf2112]

I would think that you would need other reasons to get many people in the door and then use the quality brews to keep them there.

Many fermenters would be most important. That is where the bottle neck would occur. If you could brew 2-3 times in a day and send it to the fermenters.

If this is a true start up, why not have some craft brews from local breweries on tap with 2-3 of your own, and little by little push the bought stuff out.

I think food is the best way to get them in the door. I would make a good smoke house bbq place. BBQ and brew go together so well.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[rycov]

I've looked at the economics of it several times, anything less than a 8.5 BBL brewhouse with 3x17 BBL fermenters + 2 brite tanks and you will be working like a slave to your brewery IMHO. Given the fixed cost of operating a brewery in a metropolitan area, you need enough volume to get the incremental costs into a reasonable range. Eveyone I've talke to with smaller brewhouses are basically at max capacity at all times and barely making enough profit to be sustainable. You need to have a growth path if you want to endure.

That said, a little brewery with on-site sales of our own + other local micros, with live music on Friday evenings and a low key atmosphere is my vision. Local distribution to watering holes around the region would keep the lights on and move enough product to keep the gears turning.

not sure where you are. but in sc if you sell alcohol for consumption on site you also have to serve food. also if you sell your brew at your site for consumption then you can not sell it to other establishments.

 

[rycov]

here you are either a brewery or a brew pub, cant be both.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

California law allows for a brewery to provide on-site sales. A brewpub has different licensing, and is not what I am referring to as I don't want the trouble of a kitchen and short order staff. Some locals just get a catering truck to park in front during the busy hours. Kind of a permanent roach coach hangout.

 

[Scottatron]

I started with a business plan to operate a 1bbl package brewery as a one-man operation. Once I did all the research, unit-cost analysis, state laws, etc., I realized it would be a full time job with almost no profit (no chance of doing it from my own property, so all unit-profits would go to rent/utilities).

So I modified it to a 3bbl with a tasting room, selling to local businesses (which I had several very interested ones). I couldn't make the numbers work for a quit-my-job kind of income.

Then I worked the numbers for 7bbl, and it would be profitable if I could go full-on production right out of the gate. However, I don't have the capital to go that route, and I really don't want to borrow that kind of money with a young family.

I wanted to do kegs sold to bars/restaurants rather than running a full brew-pub because I've been running a restaurant for 10 years, and that's not what I want to do forever!

So, I'm back to brewing for the pure enjoyment of it, and thinking, "Someday, someday....maybe."

I worked up a business plan for a brewery early on last year as it is my long term goal to open up a brewery. For a new 20 bbl system with fermenters, installed, a space to rent 6 months working capital, bottling line keg filler/washer and kegs it would cost around $400K... so I figured actually $500k.

From all of the numbers I crunched a 20bbl brewhouse with 40 bbl fermenters is the smallest you can go and maintain a decent profitability. You can make money on a smaller scale if you have enough fermenters and brew constantly, but not much.

Would either of you be willing to share these plans? I'm an accountant and I love looking at this stuff.

 

[Randar]

I'd almost be afraid to buy anything smaller than a 15bbl brewhouse with 30bbl fermenters. The 10bbl brewery that I have brewed at is at capacity and everyone double brews, hence the 30bbl fermenters. You can always grab a 15 or 20bbl fermenter for one off or special brews.

This is basically what I was going to post. I think unless you are targeting a small brew-pub or without any distribution potential, you can stay in the <7bbl level and be ok.

I don't think I would start out smaller than 15 and would probably provision the entire plan and facility for a full 30 bbl setup and bottling/canning line. In most of these configs you still need glycol setups, pumps, keg washing, bottling, etc... biggest cost difference I have seen (other than rent/build-out/real estate aspects) will be in the fermenters and the startup size for your HLT/MT/BK/Whirlpool.

JMO.

 

[curlyfat]

Would either of you be willing to share these plans? I'm an accountant and I love looking at this stuff.

Mine isn't a complete plan (yet), as I never got past the "is it feasible?" stage. Besides, no offense, I'm not that hot on the idea of sharing my business plan with "random-dude-on-internet".

 

[Weizenwerks]

Besides, no offense, I'm not that hot on the idea of sharing my business plan with "random-dude-on-internet".

C'mon all that information you spent hours researching on your own should be available to those that aren't willing to do it on their own. People want everything for free these days.

 

[DeBrewer]

C'mon all that information you spent hours researching on your own should be available to those that aren't willing to do it on their own. People want everything for free these days.

I'm not looking for trade secrets and I am not asking for detailed specifics. I fully understand the thought of holding a business plan close to the chest, I merely want to know what things were considered and how that ultimately played a role in your outcome. Even if you posted every bit of detailed info and research you had, it would not be perfect for everyone's target demographic. We all have different circumstances and markets to contend with.

Here locally you can be licensed as a native brewer and do just about whatever you like as long as your within your production limitations, so to hear the hurdles of other states is very intriguing. I apologize if you view this as being lazy and not wanting to work out the details but that is not the case. I have to imagine that most of you have a well formulated and designed business plan that was molded from the experience of others.

 

[Weizenwerks]

I went out and researched the information for my business. The only "canned" information I saw was this: http://www.soundbrew.com/standards.html which was a good resource for energy use and water use which helped out for the cost of production figuring. The rest of my business plan was all me. I spent a few hundred hours researching and getting it together.

They now have a nanobrewery article as well as the project article that would probably guide you to making a sound decision. Their information delivery is quite "real world" as they've been in business since the 1980's.

There really aren't any trade secrets in the brewing industry. Most beers have been made at some time and there really isn't anything magical about it. Some brewers try to protect their recipe, like 21A and their Watermelon Wheat. Most any commercial caliber brewmaster can taste a beer and make a clone in a few tries. Some guys use special yeast strains, but for the most part any beer brewed commercially can be brewed by the homebrewer.

We've done a bit of business just to get product in the market to get the name out. Once we get all our beers in production and in the market, we will sell a small pamphlet with all our recipes in it, for the cost of printing the pamphlet. No profit. Anyone who wants to brew our beer can do it in their home themselves.

 

[Mongrel]

I'm not looking for trade secrets and I am not asking for detailed specifics.

OK, in that case, my brewery will have to be opened in some place that allows hookers and beer under one roof. Sadly, that's not Oregon just yet. I might have to settle for strippers and beer, but that would be sad.

 

[DeBrewer]

Werizenworks -
Thank you for posting the link. I had not run across that one yet. I think that you hit the nail on the head in that there really isn't any magic to this other than having a good product and proper market availability whether it in a brewpub or store. Selling the recipe at cost is a great idea in my opinion. Even when I make a clone that is very close I still want to pop the top of the original.

Mongrel -
Hookers + Brew = WIN in my book but you need to head southwet for that. Voila Bunny Ranch...

I would assume that there are many of us reading this that dream of going pro but after a few days of digging find out that it&#8217;s not feasible for whatever reason so I would like to be able to understand those hurdles that may be unforeseen and possibly find a way to overcome them or ultimately have my hypothetical brewery dreams come crashing down in a blaze of glory&#8230;

 

[Weizenwerks]

The biggest hurdle in any business startup, let alone a brewery (of any size), is capital access. It simply takes money to start a business. There are very few success stories of businesses starting with less than $5,000 and becoming full time job for the proprietor sustained for many years. Sure you can start a nanobrewery on a home type system in a small shed on your property with a brewing sculpture most serious brewing enthusiasts have. If you intend to distribute outside your premises this will only last so long before you can't keep up with demand. There are a few stories from nano breweries on this forum of that very thing happening. If they can't produce to meet demand, the demand goes to someone who can.

Don't ever start to brew for one restaurant or bar and think that will sustain you. Beer is a volume game. And what happens when your tap is sold to a competitor because their beer is better? You are now scrambling to get a new client. It's very rare that a homebrew type system makes it well enough to grow and distribute. The most successful business model of that type is to sell on the premises from the tap and have bottles or growlers for them to take home.

Problem with limited capital is that also limits production, marketing, sales, and growth. If you can barely afford a 1.5 barrel system, fermenter, and supporting equipment you will be severely limiting your placement in the market. If you even brew one batch a week you have to have enough fermentation vessels to house it all.

From 3B (morebeer.com) a 20gal horizontal brewing sculpture will run you $3,100 for the base model and closer to $5,000 for the full digital upgrades. The 27gal conical is $1,000. There's $4-6K right there. If you want to ferment more than one 20gal batch at a time it's an extra $1,000 per fermenter.

You can only sell what you can produce and you can only market what you have available to sell. There is no sense in trying to sell something that isn't available. That will lose customers faster than you can believe.

Larger production lines are cheaper to operate and are the most efficient. Bulk saves. People in startups are so focused on the price to make profit they don't pay attention to the costs. Your price is not where you want to compete. You compete on cost. If you can make your beer cheaper than your competition you will make more money. Buying weighed out packs of ingredients could run you $100 per 20 gallon batch. If you buy bulk pack where you have to weigh and distribute per batch, you might pay only $75 for the same ingredients. You just lowered your COGS $25 per batch thus increasing your gross profit by the same. Twenty-five dollars at two batches a week for a nano is $2,600 gross profit over a year. Go buy two more conicals and increase your fermentation capacity.

Products do not sell themselves. If they did, we wouldn't have salesman pimping them. You need a good product that is properly placed, priced, and promoted.

 

[curlyfat]

Weiznwerks, well said!