Experiment - Ethanol humulone extraction
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Awesome thread.
Idea- could this be used to extract what goodness remains of hops that have been stored for a year or more? That way you know for sure what you are putting in your batch.
Idea- could this be used to extract what goodness remains of hops that have been stored for a year or more? That way you know for sure what you are putting in your batch.
Adam_Selene
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Lol dissolving under argon and a flux capacitor
Thats about the guess everyone has given me lol. The nonpolar gas is not critical to the extraction, ive simply tweaked my method to operate at maximum efficiency.
However, it doesnt need to be complicated. Extracting hops strain specific lupulin from the hops is simple with grain alcohol. 5 minutes is almost too long, 20 minutes and it'll be green. If you leave it for days or weeks itll dissolve into a nasty green mixture, if you boil it in a soxhlet extractor you will dissolve it into green pasty waste.
The lupulin glands hold the alpha, beta acids and the essential oils. If you extract all the lupulin in a 3 minute wash, you now have all the alpha, beta, and essential oils used for the flavoring and aromatics of your beer. If added to the beginning it will isomerize like normal hops, if left untill later it will not isomerize and it will retain the the volatile aromatics.
... DARK MATER... through a chromatography column. Now I know I've guessed it.
I didn't find everclear at the few liquor stores I visited, so I just used vodka. It seems to have worked well, the extract was yellow, not green. I used 2 oz Columbus pellet hops a paint strainer bag and a coffee filter. I found out quickly that frozen pellets will not dissolve in frozen vodka. I drained them, thawed them out and crushed them before trying again.
The extract tasted quite bitter, and it seems a lot of the aroma was carried off by the fan as it was drying. I used it in a hoppy Red Ale as I was kegging it. The beer is still carbonating, but samples taste very bitter and the aroma is so so. This batch of extract isn't as effective as I had hoped unfortunately. I'd like to try again with everclear if I can find it.
The extract tasted quite bitter, and it seems a lot of the aroma was carried off by the fan as it was drying. I used it in a hoppy Red Ale as I was kegging it. The beer is still carbonating, but samples taste very bitter and the aroma is so so. This batch of extract isn't as effective as I had hoped unfortunately. I'd like to try again with everclear if I can find it.
I haven't given this a go yet, but I think homebrewer-scale evaporation techniques are all going to oxidize and "blow away" the aroma. I haven't done the ABV math, but I think you might get more from adding the solution directly, as-is. Additional processing seems destined to hurt, not help.
My plan for now is 1oz shredded centennial leaf in a small french press, vodka to cover, 3 minutes then strain. Then either add to my IPA ... or enjoy as-is.
Was it "good bitter" or "bad bitter", you'd say?
My plan for now is 1oz shredded centennial leaf in a small french press, vodka to cover, 3 minutes then strain. Then either add to my IPA ... or enjoy as-is.
Was it "good bitter" or "bad bitter", you'd say?
It's a good bitter, pretty smooth actually, just too much of it. I was hoping for a huge aroma boost, but I only got more bitterness from what I can tell. I was surprised since you usually associate hops bitterness with boiled isomerized hop oils, not raw unboiled hop oil. I'm sure it will mellow a little with some time, it's still very young.
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I mean it sounds like something in the process isomerized the alphas, right? I'm just wondering whether that's during extraction or evaporation. Guess I'll find out soon enough, just gotta pick up some vodka (don't really use the stuff)
Keep in mind that there are other bitter things in hops like polyphenols, not just the alpha acids. There is not a lot of data out there on the polyphenol levels in hop varieties, but it does vary quite a bit. This is why some dry hops increase the perceived bitterness much more than others - and why you have to be careful with how long you dry hop for - if you are using a high polyphenol variety
Yeah true, ever try chewing on a hop pellet? It's definitely bitter.
Goodness you guys dont listen.
Masonsjax, you dont wont to dissolve the hop. At all.
Period. End of story.
Next time, follow my instructions. Shake the frozen hop solution for 3 minutes and then strain. If you feel like there is more left then refreeze to tie up the water solubles and run another 3 minute wash.
THEN you must evaporate off all the alcohol in a shallow dish in front of a fan. No heat! The essential oils you want are very volatile and begin to boil off around 160 degrees.
You now have a finished extract.
Also im sorry if you cant acquire 190 proof as that is really the only way to achieve perfection.
Masonsjax, you dont wont to dissolve the hop. At all.
Period. End of story.
Next time, follow my instructions. Shake the frozen hop solution for 3 minutes and then strain. If you feel like there is more left then refreeze to tie up the water solubles and run another 3 minute wash.
THEN you must evaporate off all the alcohol in a shallow dish in front of a fan. No heat! The essential oils you want are very volatile and begin to boil off around 160 degrees.
You now have a finished extract.
Also im sorry if you cant acquire 190 proof as that is really the only way to achieve perfection.
So you think frozen hop pellets just being rinsed with alcohol is an efficient way to extract their oils? I certainly don't. The alcohol just barely wets them because they stay frozen solid during the 3 minute shake. I followed your instructions and it didn't work, so I adjusted as needed. After disintegrating the (still dry) hop pellets, the process appeared to work just fine. What do you see as having failed with what I tried? I did not add any heat, I used a shallow dish in front of a fan.
Yes, to say you should leave the pellets whole instead of breaking them up is insensible. If you were truly overextracting by breaking them up you would want to compensate by extracting for less time, or something like that--you should want even access to all parts of the hop material for the solvent, anything else is silly.
Did you take a sniff/taste before evaporation? Do you think it was a preferable solution at that stage? That's my main point of interest.
Did you take a sniff/taste before evaporation? Do you think it was a preferable solution at that stage? That's my main point of interest.
Yeah, it smelled like alcohol more than anything at that point. This was just an experiment so I used my oldest hops. I think it was a success for the most part. I was a little surprised at how bitter the extract was, but as that beer carbonates, it's mellowing nicely. Next time I'll use fresh centennials.
You are all ****ing morons. Good luck with your ****ty extracts. Hilarious that a 4 step process with basic chemistry continues to baffle the Ignorant. It actually makes me upset that you cant comprehend, its actually really depressing. Whatever, this is the last post I make.
Ps for those interested in extracting something drinkable and not total and complete crap can refer back to my first post a few pages back.
what these morons fail to read the instructions or then try and make ridiculous substitutions to the alcohol used (you need 190 proof), to the time extracted 3 minutes.
The idea is not to dissolve the hop, its to allow the lupulin oils to be extracted while the other diluted crap and plant waste gets thrown out!
Okay, I'm done. Fearwig, you are an ignorant moron. Masonjax, follow the damn instructions...or dont look like an idiot when you do it wrong.
Cheers
Ps for those interested in extracting something drinkable and not total and complete crap can refer back to my first post a few pages back.
what these morons fail to read the instructions or then try and make ridiculous substitutions to the alcohol used (you need 190 proof), to the time extracted 3 minutes.
The idea is not to dissolve the hop, its to allow the lupulin oils to be extracted while the other diluted crap and plant waste gets thrown out!
Okay, I'm done. Fearwig, you are an ignorant moron. Masonjax, follow the damn instructions...or dont look like an idiot when you do it wrong.
Cheers
Wow! Completely uncalled for man. Take a minute and have a beer.
As far as I can tell, the only deviation I made from your instructions was using vodka because I have not yet found everclear for sale anywhere. By the way, you yourself said vodka should work so I'm not sure what has got you so worked up. This was just an experiment anyway, which seems to have worked as intended. How does that make me "an idiot"? Whatever is right, good luck, don't let the door hit you.
Also you deviated by dissolving the hops. I also dont recommend pellets because lupulin is located under the bracts on the outside of the hop leaf and it is easy to reduce non essential dilutents. They are little gold resin balls. research hop anatomy or simply look at where lupulin is.
Also 190 proof is an excellent solvent for oils and resins.
Your taste buds will thank you for not dissolving the entire hop. Only grab what you need using a short frozen extraction.
Also 190 proof is an excellent solvent for oils and resins.
Your taste buds will thank you for not dissolving the entire hop. Only grab what you need using a short frozen extraction.
Sorry it was Wynn that specifically said Vodka, but in post #40 you said "It works faster with high proof, but if you set it in front of a fan in a baking dish where it will be a thin film it will evaporate."
Then in post #50 you say to experiment, have fun, see what works for you. What happened? All of a sudden you're acting like someone's life depends on the outcome of my experiment. Chill out guy, I don't work for you.
Then in post #50 you say to experiment, have fun, see what works for you. What happened? All of a sudden you're acting like someone's life depends on the outcome of my experiment. Chill out guy, I don't work for you.
Even You cant keep track!! how are other homebrewers supposed to follow when I'm being misquoted and ive got 25 private messages all trying to deviate from a precise method. I meant try the recipe and have fun, not try everything but the recipe and then post it online.
There is a lot of misinformation about this process, in fact even professional distributors extracts are average. I'm trying to open up the ability to extract strain specific flavors and aromas or bitterness to the homebrewer, because all that is available is generic co2 hops or ethanol extract that is dark green viscous paste.
Stop posting misinformation, especially when you are attaching me!
Its not fair for the homebrewers who are searching for help.
There is a lot of misinformation about this process, in fact even professional distributors extracts are average. I'm trying to open up the ability to extract strain specific flavors and aromas or bitterness to the homebrewer, because all that is available is generic co2 hops or ethanol extract that is dark green viscous paste.
Stop posting misinformation, especially when you are attaching me!
Its not fair for the homebrewers who are searching for help.
This is an outstanding example of name calling and belligerence that is not allowed on HBT. I'm not deleting this, so it can be seen as an example of what not to do. The poster is now a former member.
OP
OP
OhSoHumuLonely
Well-Known Member
Wow. This thread really escalated. Thanks, Pappers.
Sent from my PantechP8010 using Home Brew mobile app
Sent from my PantechP8010 using Home Brew mobile app
Wow, guy's a piece of work.
The point is that no matter WHAT kind of extraction you're doing, you don't want to intentionally work on an unevenly compacted material. That's obvious on its face, and if you can't explain why it is preferable without resorting to this crap, I'm at a loss. What nonsense.
The point is that no matter WHAT kind of extraction you're doing, you don't want to intentionally work on an unevenly compacted material. That's obvious on its face, and if you can't explain why it is preferable without resorting to this crap, I'm at a loss. What nonsense.
There was no call, whatsoever, for the venom in his response, but I understand the basis of his recommendation.
His statement is that the compounds we want to extract are found specifically in the lupulin glands, which are on the external hop leaf.
Pulverizing, in his opinion, does nothing to improve accessibility to the lupulin and makes it more likely that you'll extract other compounds that we don't want in addition to the good stuff.
In that case, his recommendation for leaf hops makes a lot of sense.
In my experiment the use of pulverized pellet hops and vodka resulted in the same yellow paste shown in his example photos. I may be an idiot, but from what I can tell, my attempt was successful. Btw, the commercial extracts I've seen were also yellow, none were green mush like he made out. With his attitude toward people, I doubt he'll make it out of the lab in his mom's basement.
Yup. Attitude is everything. People buy the package as much as they buy what's inside it.
Even when a conversation gets frustrating, a good salesman (and everyone is a salesman of something) will force himself to relax, lest all of his efforts be lost in the heat of a single moment...
Selling an idea to a friend, or to someone who shares your background and views, is easy. It's much more work to sell an idea to someone with no common background or who's views differ markedly from your own. The reality, though, is that most people will fall into the 2nd camp. If you can't communicate with people of differing views, your reach is severely limited.
Even when a conversation gets frustrating, a good salesman (and everyone is a salesman of something) will force himself to relax, lest all of his efforts be lost in the heat of a single moment...
Selling an idea to a friend, or to someone who shares your background and views, is easy. It's much more work to sell an idea to someone with no common background or who's views differ markedly from your own. The reality, though, is that most people will fall into the 2nd camp. If you can't communicate with people of differing views, your reach is severely limited.
Well, if you're using leaf, yes, but I think it was said before that pellet hops were used. There's no reason you can't extract from pellet, you might just get more of the stuff you don't want because you're looking at chopped, compressed leaf. In either case, extracting from WHOLE pellets would be insane, you'd need to crush them. Whole leaf, yes, certainly. I do imagine leaf would be preferable all around for the reasons described but he didn't really get at that (I'm not sure he read a lot of the thread, actually?).
fearwig, I completely understand your point. With pellet hops, I suspect it makes sense to homogenize the mixture, i.e. break up the pellets (mechanically or otherwise)
His point (not mine) was that using leaf hops was his original recommendation, largely because of reduced potential to extract things other than those we want to extract. Using pellet hops is already a deviation from "recommended" practice.
To move the conversation forward without getting hung up on the recent emotion... If you're going to use pellet hops, I'd think you might be better off to mechanically pulverize them as gently as possible, rather than trying to let the alcohol wash them into suspension.
I say that because of the 3 minute contact time recommendation. If there's credence to the time sensitivity, then pulverizing mechanically before adding alcohol would let you homogenize the suspension without extending contact time.
I have not yet tried any of this. I think for my own purposes, when I do, I will pick up some leaf hops and start there. I did manage to stumble on a bottle of 190 proof Everclear, so I've got that part covered...
Yeah, sorry, I misread you at first and then completely rewrote my post in an edit (as you can see the quote's not what's up there now, I'm a habitual over-editer). But I do agree with everything you've said here.
I agree that leaf and everclear are your best bet here. I think you could do a passable job with vodka and pellet, as long as you don't over-evaporate the solution. I'd be interested to find out what final "efficiency" is like, using this for aroma, in terms of hops spent compared to dry hopping. Obviously it would require a subjective analysis. I could see it being a lot worse or a lot better, depending on how I think about it.
I agree that leaf and everclear are your best bet here. I think you could do a passable job with vodka and pellet, as long as you don't over-evaporate the solution. I'd be interested to find out what final "efficiency" is like, using this for aroma, in terms of hops spent compared to dry hopping. Obviously it would require a subjective analysis. I could see it being a lot worse or a lot better, depending on how I think about it.
