Excessively dry beer?

[mhermetz]

It has been a long time since I've had to post a question on my brews but I can't seem to figure this one issue out.

For the past 4 years I've been brewing a light ale for my buddies Wrestlemania party called The Stunner. It started out as an Amber, and it was fantastic. However, I think it was a little too much for some of my buds.

So after doing some reading I thought a Blonde ale sitting around 4.5% and 18 IBU would be best. I would mash in at 149F to make it a little drier too. My first attempt at the new brew was last year. According to my notes I missed my mash and hit 145F and held it for 1hr 45min. Not a big issue, I wanted a dry beer after all. All seemed good until I tasted the beer. It was something I never tasted before. It wasn't any off flavour I could identify. My notes described it as being like biting into a pine tree. I'm guessing from my notes I thought I over hopped the beer. So I eliminated the amount of Saaz I added at 30min. I also made a note that missing my mash temp increased my fermentibility farther than expected and ended up with a 5.5% "light" beer.

So fast forward 2 weeks ago. I re-brew the beer with the changes. I hit 148F and held for 90min. I demolish my regular Efficiency of 75% and hit 85%. My SG is 1.053! Well, I took a gravity reading yesterday and it was sitting at 1.00!! So you don't have to check you're calculators that 7%! It seems I suck at brewing "Light" beer. I figure I'll make the party I little more fun...no biggie RDWHAHB right? Well... It still has that same taste to this beer. The only things that stick out to me are:

A- It needs more time to age since I've made rocket fuel from something that's suppose to taste light and refreshing.
B- It's really dry tasting. I have no experience tasting beers that are mashed so low.

thoughts?

 

[porterpounder]

Even at 148F you're likely to get a very fermentable wort. 90 minutes is way too long of a mash for a lighter beer. That flavor/sensation you can't quite put your finger on is likely tannin extraction from an excessively long mash at a higher pH than is ideal. Also, with such a long mash your tempt may be dropping right to the bottom of the ideal temp range and you may be converting too many body-producing starches to fermentables. Cut the mash to 50-60 minutes, try a rest at 150-152 and go from there.

 

[mhermetz]

Even at 148F you're likely to get a very fermentable wort. 90 minutes is way too long of a mash for a lighter beer. That flavor/sensation you can't quite put your finger on is likely tannin extraction from an excessively long mash at a higher pH than is ideal. Also, with such a long mash your tempt may be dropping right to the bottom of the ideal temp range and you may be converting too many body-producing starches to fermentables. Cut the mash to 50-60 minutes, try a rest at 150-152 and go from there.

Well I know it was not Ph, my meter was sitting at 5.25 @ room temp. I've tasted tannins before, this is not as harsh tasting. But you're right I should try a different mash rest and temp.

 

[dmtaylor]

Yeah, that's dry alright. A mash temp of 148 F is fine, but you don't need to mash for 90 minutes on top of it. Try just 40 minutes, then it won't be quite as dry, plus save some time on brew day.

Also, it makes sense that your efficiency skyrocketed. Small grain bills will do that, just like in an opposite way, the really strong beers with a lot of malt get sucky efficiency closer to 60%. Efficiency is NOT a constant for different gravity beers / grain bills -- efficiency is in fact a sliding scale that depends very much on how big the beer is. Smaller beer leads to higher efficiency. So, use even less malt next time for less alcohol, and assume 85% efficiency just like you got this time. Then you'll hit your goals.

You can also add Carapils at up to 20% of the total grist to prevent dryness. But of course, you're saying that you want it dry, just not THAT dry. So before dicking around with Carapils, play with the other factors above. From there you can add Carapils in later batches IF needed to adjust the body even more. Hopefully you'll find that you really don't need it at all.

Better luck in future!!

 

[mhermetz]

Update- Brewed this again a month ago.

This time I nailed my mash temp @ 152 for 60min. PH was perfect as well. I checked it at 5min in and at mash out to be sure.

The beer is much better, although there is still something off with it. It just tastes harsh. Not puckering like tannins, just rough around edges. I know its going to be fruity because its an ale, but it just seems like someone tossed in a fermenting orange that had been sitting out on the counter for 2 weeks.

 

[dwhite60]

Sounds like it needs more time. Time does wonderful things.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[mhermetz]

Not sure about that. It was in the primary for 3 weeks. That's more than enough time to clean it up. I'm also talking a beer that's only 4.2%, not a massive imperial stout that should sit in the primary for 3+ months.

 

[bucketnative]

I would post your exact recipe in order to get the most help.

 

[mhermetz]

10lb 2row
1lb Munich 10L
8 oz carafoam
8 oz cara20
13.4 oz Acid malt (based off ph measurements. It varies slightly batch to batch)

.5oz Saaz(5.7ibu) 60min
.5oz Centennial (10.1ibu) 60min

S-05 - Rehydrated.

 

[CBelli]

I would post your exact recipe in order to get the most help.

After reading all posts I think we need to see the recipe...
Here are a few thoughts I had while reading some of the posts...

From not seeing the recipe I also agree possible tannins from the sparge.
Fly or Batch Sparge?
Sparge temp?

Have you fermented any buggy beers in the carboys?
Old or musty base malt?
Possibly using a new malt that you really don't like? This happened to me with Munich (I'm really not a fan if it is prominent)

 

[kh54s10]

Was the beer bottled? If so, how long have they conditioned. I have had some that tasted off at 2 weeks and great at about 4 weeks.

You might also be getting a harsh bitterness from only 60 minute hop additions. Try using less at 60 and adding a 20 or 30 minute addition. That should give a less harsh bitterness and more flavor.

 

[brandonnys]

Was the beer bottled? If so, how long have they conditioned. I have had some that tasted off at 2 weeks and great at about 4 weeks.

You might also be getting a harsh bitterness from only 60 minute hop additions. Try using less at 60 and adding a 20 or 30 minute addition. That should give a less harsh bitterness and more flavor.

I would agree. You have nothing but bittering in here. Throw some medium AA hops in for flavor, and maybe a nice bit of Mosaic or Citra (my preference for what you're brewing, you can use whatever you like) for the nose.

You're using Saaz in bittering, and it's almost exclusively an aroma hop in my experience. If you like the arome from Saaz, keep the same quantity and move it to 15min before FO. Keep the Centennial at 60min. Maybe stick .25 or .5oz of Simcoe in at 30 minutes. I think that would round it out nicely, but it would be a COMPLETELY different beer.

 

[CBelli]

10lb 2row
1lb Munich 10L
8 oz carafoam
8 oz cara20
13.4 oz Acid malt (based off ph measurements. It varies slightly batch to batch)

.5oz Saaz(5.7ibu) 60min
.5oz Centennial (10.1ibu) 60min

S-05 - Rehydrated.

I'm betting it is the acid malt you don't like.... Try lactic acid in the mash and most important the sparge from what I have been told PH and temp in the sparge has high potential for tannin extraction

 

[mhermetz]

sorry at work right now, so I'm just reading some of these messages now. It seems I need to be more detailed. So here's what my mashing looked like:

1. Heat mash water to 185F (approx. depending on ambient temp). No treatment needed at this point.
2. Pump water into Mash tun.
3. Dump milled grain into mash tun. Stir until the temp is even throughout. Stir longer if my mash temp is too high.
4. 5min in check PH. Adjust accordingly with Acid malt.
5. Check temp at 35min.
6. Check final PH before recirculating for 5min.
7. Mash out until tun drained. Collect first runnings in plastic pail.
8. Pump in Sparge water to mash tun, 160F. No water treatment.
9. Recirculate mash for 10min.
10. While recirculating dump first runnings into BK. Begin to heat.
11. Collect second runnings until desired volumn is met. This normally leaves 1gal left in the Mash Tun.
12. Dump second runnnings into keg, and boil away.

I found the comment about not liking the taste of the acid malt. I find that interesting, that never even crossed my mind. No harm in trying lactic acid next go around.

I also don't treat my sparge water PH, Something I'll do once I grab some Lactic acid. The tap water around here sits at around 7.1. I've read sparge should be at 6.

Could also be the that I don't like Munich. I really don't have that much experience in tasting the difference between malts. Everyone always says to eat the malt, if it tastes good to you, use it. I never find that approach helps me at all.

This is also Kegged. I do notice the taste in the carboy too, so I think that rules out the kegging process.

As for Hopping. I could change that too but you're right it will be a different beer. I will reserve this as a last step to try. I'd rather rule all other potential process problems first before I tackle the actual recipe.

The only comment I can make on the above that kind of stumps me is that there are people in our club that do not treat anything, do not rehydrate yeast and still make better beer than me.