Evidence (via studies) behind step mashing

[ryno1ryno]

All Grain mashing requires the varying temperature schedules? I want to know if there is actual scientific evidence available that proves that different water temps actually do cause the sugars and enzymes to behave and coagulate differently.

In this thread... opinions don't count.

 

[HollisBT]

All Grain mashing requires the varying temperature schedules? I want to know if there is actual scientific evidence available that proves that different water temps actually do cause the sugars and enzymes to behave and coagulate differently.

In this thread... opinions don't count.

With modern grains, they have already been modified to the point where step mashing is pretty much irrelevant and unnecessary.

Unless you are talking about the fermentability of wort, in which case temperature DOES play a much more important role...

 

[ajdelange]

In my opinion the best place to start would be with the bibliographies/references in some of the well known brewing texts such as B,H,S&Y.

 

[ryno1ryno]

In my opinion the best place to start would be with the bibliographies/references in some of the well known brewing texts such as B,H,S&Y.

Good idea. Thanks.

 

[ryno1ryno]

Would anyone happen to have any good links? If I find any, I will try to reproduce an excerpt and link.

 

[Pilgarlic]

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...#v=onepage&q=brewing mash temperature&f=false

Pages 48 and 49.

 

[Bobby_M]

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion

Is there any particular reason that you're suspect of the concept? Do a very simple controlled experiment yourself by mashing some 2 row at 148 and then 158, ferment with equal yeast at typical pitching rates. Measure final gravity.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Although it's unlikely that a very experienced grain brewer would doubt the effects of mash temps, I applaud the O.P.'s question. Homebrewing is a maelstrom of contradictory, self-perpetuating dictums and dogma that endlessly ping around the echo-chamber, more deeply entrenching themselves with each repetition. When in doubt for any reason, seek the science.

 

[ryno1ryno]

Although it's unlikely that a very experienced grain brewer would doubt the effects of mash temps, I applaud the O.P.'s question. Homebrewing is a maelstrom of contradictory, self-perpetuating dictums and dogma that endlessly ping around the echo-chamber, more deeply entrenching themselves with each repetition. When in doubt for any reason, seek the science.

Thank you! I couldn't have said it better!!!

This IS the science thread... I see the topic at hand to be well within reason.

 

[ryno1ryno]

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...#v=onepage&q=brewing mash temperature&f=false

Pages 48 and 49.

Thanks.

 

[ryno1ryno]

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion

Is there any particular reason that you're suspect of the concept? Do a very simple controlled experiment yourself by mashing some 2 row at 148 and then 158, ferment with equal yeast at typical pitching rates. Measure final gravity.

That was a good read. I need to go over it later in more detail.

I like those charts.

See... not everyone is a chemist. Humans aren't born with a full understanding of the starch conversion process.

 

[Voraus]

Why not apply the scientific method? You've asked a question, done some research, now make a hypothesis, do the experiment suggested above, and draw a conclusion for yourself on your system. Science in action!

 

[weirdboy]

Yeah I guess I understand because you're a new brewer that you are skeptical of some of the advice or "wisdom" you see here and other places on the internet.

However, if you've brewed a few similar AG batches mashed at various temps, it is easy to see how the temperature affects the beer that is produced. Higher mash temps will give you a less fermentable wort and fuller-bodied, and sweeter beer, and lower temperatures will give you a more fermentable wort and thinner-bodied, drier beer. My guess is that this question is connected to your recent electric turkey roaster purchase, which you have probably discovered doesn't do well at maintaining mash temps in the range you'd like.

There is about a metric ton of science behind this knowledge. It is so well understood that it is in the introductory chapters of most brewing texts.

 

[Kaiser]

All Grain mashing requires the varying temperature schedules? I want to know if there is actual scientific evidence available that proves that different water temps actually do cause the sugars and enzymes to behave and coagulate differently.
QUOTE]

This is the work I have done: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing

And there is more in the literature as noted above. Thanks for referencing my site.

But I need to get a clarification on your question. Are you asking for the need of a mash schedule that varies the temperature or the need of having to adjust the temperature of an isothermal mash?

Kai

 

[ryno1ryno]

But I need to get a clarification on your question. Are you asking for the need of a mash schedule that varies the temperature or the need of having to adjust the temperature of an isothermal mash?

First part yes. Second part... huh? I have no idea what isothermal mash is

Essentially... how important is steeping at lower temps and then changing temps. If there is a quick and dirty answer then I'm happy. I do like the material and I believe I get it now... but it never hurts to be lazy and have someone else tell me what they think.

 

[Airborneguy]

Have you read any brewing literature yet? The question I believe you are asking IS proven science. You're not questioning something like a secondary or using glass as opposed to plastic. Enzymes activate within specific temperature ranges, there's no question about that.

 

[ryno1ryno]

I am not questioning anything at the moment. I read the material and it was great.

He asked me to clarify my question.

 

[Yooper]

First part yes. Second part... huh? I have no idea what isothermal mash is

Essentially... how important is steeping at lower temps and then changing temps. If there is a quick and dirty answer then I'm happy. I do like the material and I believe I get it now... but it never hurts to be lazy and have someone else tell me what they think.

While I applaud your inquisitiveness and your thirst for knowledge, sometimes questions like this (while still doing Mr. Beer and no practical knowledge of all-grain) seem to be trolling for trolling's sake.

There are literally hundreds and hundreds of brewing texts, some simple (like how to brew.com) and some not (Fix).

The short answer to your question is "yes", that there are tons of texts that point to the fact that "proves that different water temps actually do cause the sugars and enzymes to behave and coagulate differently."

You don't have to read them all, but if you read one, you'll have a good understanding of the principals of the science of mashing.

And then saying:

"In this thread... opinions don't count. "
is really ridiculous. You have 0 basis for YOUR premise, but you're asking some noted brewers, and brewing scientists to prove that you don't know what you're talking about! C'mon. You're in the "Brew Science" forum. Not the "beginner's forum". To post that way, with such a chip on your shoulder, to noted brewing scientists is somewhat presumptuous.

I don't go into a "Advance Physics" forum and ask them to explain force and gravity!

Some of this is Brewing 101 basics.

 

[ryno1ryno]

See replies #10 and #11.

 

[Yooper]

See replies #10 and #11.

Yes. See the forum posted in. (Brew Science)

AJ deLange (noted brewing water chemistry expert) answered you:

In my opinion the best place to start would be with the bibliographies/references in some of the well known brewing texts such as B,H,S&Y.

That was nice of him to answer. If you know what texts he's talking about, you're ahead of the game.

 

[HollisBT]

First part yes. Second part... huh? I have no idea what isothermal mash is

Essentially... how important is steeping at lower temps and then changing temps. If there is a quick and dirty answer then I'm happy. I do like the material and I believe I get it now... but it never hurts to be lazy and have someone else tell me what they think.

The quick and dirty answer was in the very first reply to the thread...

 

[Airborneguy]

I just went to a car forum and asked them to prove to me that cars run on gas. Of course, opinions will not be accepted because we know everyone has one on that topic.

 

[Kaiser]

First part yes. Second part... huh? I have no idea what isothermal mash is

I threw that in as a fancy word for single infusion mashing I.e. a mash that rests at only one temperature.

Essentially... how important is steeping at lower temps and then changing temps. If there is a quick and dirty answer then I'm happy. I do like the material and I believe I get it now... but it never hurts to be lazy and have someone else tell me what they think.

All that *needs* to be done to make beer is to convert starches into sugars, and that can be done at one single temperature. But in some cases it is beneficial to rest the mash at different temperatures to promote different groups of enzymes and thus conversion reactions. This depends on the grist your are using and certain quality parameters in the wort that you are looking for. This is also where there is lots of debate in home brewing. Just search for "step mashing vs. single infusion" or "decoction mashing vs. single infusion" and sift through the many opinions that brewers have.

Kai

 

[Pilgarlic]

I didn't interpret the OP as stating an opinion. He wasn't denying the relationship between temps and enzymes, he was asking where he could find the science. True, he could easily have found the information elsewhere, but I really don't see anything intrinsically wrong about asking brew scientists about brew science, even if it's a very basic question. I have from time to time posted questions and added "I'm not looking for simple reiterations of what is heard again and again in the echo chamber, I'm looking for peer reviewed research". I may be wrong, but that's all I read in the O.P.'s question.

 

[jerrodm]

OK, but there's a point to be made here. With something as well-accepted as "mashing requires maintaining temp within a certain range in order to effect starch conversion", to start it off as the basis of a discussion and then prevail upon people NOT to refer to their own "opinions", seems a little silly. My next thread is going to be entitled, "What proof is there that yeast make alcohol?" And, please, no opinions.

Edit: included the NOT, without which the sentence didn't make any sense!

 

[Pilgarlic]

If the point is his post "seems a little silly", for what it's worth, granted.

 

[jerrodm]

Not just a little silly, but actually inappropriate. These are discussion forums for homebrewers, where discussion, including of personal experience and, yes, opinions, is the whole point. I'm for questioning unexamined "received wisdom" practices as much as anyone else. But to cut short discussion of any evidence other than "studies" on a discussion board forum goes a little beyond silly to me. If OP wants scientific studies about brewing science, subscribe to the JIB. If he wants input from other homebrewers, which is what this site is about, he might have to deign to listening to some personal experiences and, gasp, even opinions.

I know, I shuddered too when I typed it.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Good point. Let's make sure the O.P. understands it:

OP: Don't ask that sort of thing in that way around here or all Hell will break loose. There are rules that are very clear to those who know better than you. Be careful. Okay?

 

[ryno1ryno]

I threw that in as a fancy word for single infusion mashing I.e. a mash that rests at only one temperature.



All that *needs* to be done to make beer is to convert starches into sugars, and that can be done at one single temperature. But in some cases it is beneficial to rest the mash at different temperatures to promote different groups of enzymes and thus conversion reactions. This depends on the grist your are using and certain quality parameters in the wort that you are looking for. This is also where there is lots of debate in home brewing. Just search for "step mashing vs. single infusion" or "decoction mashing vs. single infusion" and sift through the many opinions that brewers have.

Kai

You that are offended need to take the approach from this gentlemen quoted. He has proven to be the smartest guy on this thread. And I respect him more than the rest who ONLY have opinions.

 

[Coog_Brew]

Looking back at ryno's threads it appears he hasn't taken the time to research anything on his own. I expect a lot more threads like these.