Ethics Thread

[HoppyDaze]

That's what I'm thinking

 

[CGVT]

What about waiting at a busy bar to order and the bartender calls you when you know there are like three people who've been waiting longer? I know the general populace just orders their drink and doesn't lose a wink of sleep, but we're better than that, right?

Honest to God, I generally look to the guy waiting longer than I, point, and say "I think this gentleman was here first".

This is not because I am ethical. This is because one in ten times said gentleman will buy me a beer.

I do the same thing. Never had anyone buy me a beer though

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Sigh. Ok... this fits in with my theory that having a political leaning and being a person who thinks is difficult to manage at times.

A man on line at the grocery store offered to pay for my (cheap) beer with EBT if I gave him cash. For the record I am convinced that the VAST NUMBER of people on EBT, deserve and need EBT. I think we pay taxes, we then pay for very cheap labor, and then those laborers supplement their income with EBT. I think its similar to the tipping structure at restaurants.

But... I also think that EBT isnt for buying beer... and it isnt for getting cash. I dont even know if it was possible to buy beer on EBT... yet he was trying.

I gave him some lame excuse, escaped to another line, and snuck out after I paid.

I'm not sure if I behaved in a more ethical or a less ethical manner. Feh.

 

[SupervisingChildren]

Yes, unethical to trade cash for them. And highly illegal... but buying beer with it? That should definitely not be covered! Did the right thing!

 

[Jacob_Marley]

Honest to God, I generally look to the guy waiting longer than I, point, and say "I think this gentleman was here first".

This is not because I am ethical. This is because one in ten times said gentleman will buy me a beer.

Kinda similarly ... Back when smoking was allowed in most bars, and I smoked cigars ... I'd always turn to the people on either side of me and ask them if they minded if I lit a cigar. If they said it was fine, I'd have my cigar ... if they said they'd prefer I did not, I would respond "not a problem" (etc) and not light up ... but about half the time they'd buy a drink for me.

 

[losteris]

I have been on EBT. I work full time and go to school full time trying to earn a degree. My wife and I support five kids. We never used EBT for anything other then what it was intended for. People who do stuff like trade cash and buy beer with it ruin a system that already has issues. You did the right thing!

 

[HoppyDaze]

Sigh. Ok... this fits in with my theory that having a political leaning and being a person who thinks is difficult to manage at times.

A man on line at the grocery store offered to pay for my (cheap) beer with EBT if I gave him cash. For the record I am convinced that the VAST NUMBER of people on EBT, deserve and need EBT. I think we pay taxes, we then pay for very cheap labor, and then those laborers supplement their income with EBT. I think its similar to the tipping structure at restaurants.

But... I also think that EBT isnt for buying beer... and it isnt for getting cash. I dont even know if it was possible to buy beer on EBT... yet he was trying.

I gave him some lame excuse, escaped to another line, and snuck out after I paid.

I'm not sure if I behaved in a more ethical or a less ethical manner. Feh.

Only unethical if you shove him down while yelling "get a job" followed by a Shooter McGavin double pistols

 

[SupervisingChildren]

Only unethical if you shove him down while yelling "get a job" followed by a Shooter McGavin double pistols

Hahaha

 

[WesleyS]

Only unethical if you shove him down while yelling "get a job" followed by a Shooter McGavin double pistols

So.......that's not acceptable to do?
Well, now I know.

 

[whoaru99]

A friend has a welder, it's broken so he takes it to the place he bought it and they tell him it's going to be $300-$400 to fix it because the main circuit board is shot and it's out of warranty. He buys a new one instead of fixing the old one.

This friend knows I tinker with electronics and one night he sees me at the bar and asks if I want to look at this broken welder to see if I can get it running. I ask him how much he wants to spend to fix it assuming he is asking me to repair it for him. Instead, he told me the story in the first paragraph; he's already purchased a new one and I can just have the old one to see if I can fix it.

So, a month or so ago he drops it off on my back step, it's one of those compact wirefeed welders, a Millermatic 135. I do the obligatory Internet searching to see if there are any common problems and find that the circuit board issue is virtually always the driver transistor for the wire feed motor.

I do the confirmation checks and sure enough, it's the transistor shorted emitter to collector. It's going to cost $0.97 for the transistor and just under $3 for shipping from Digikey.

Is there any obligation to him for the welder, considering it's going to cost me less than $5 to fix it and maybe two hours time between the research and repair?

 

[SupervisingChildren]

I would feel obligated to tell them I was able to fix it, however it appears if it is a friend that they would either give it to you or they should pay you for your services if they try to take it back since you fixed it. However, it boils down to can you fix it or you can have it...

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

He gave it to you broken, as a 'here, it's yours... have fun'. If you couldn't fix it, I would imagine it'd be your hassle to take to the dump. If you couldn't fix it and turned it into a bitching dining room table (some how), it'd be your dining room table. If it cost you $500 to fix, and you opted to fix it, it'd be your $500 welder. The fact that it's only going to cost $5 and a few hours shouldn't change things. $5 and 2 hours time to you, based on your skills and knowledge of electronics and soldering and transistors etc isn't the same as $5 and 2 hours to someone else who doesn't have those skills.

Because he's your friend, I'd tell him that you were able to fix it. You don't have to tell him how much it cost or how long it took, but if he asks, be honest. If he gets upset and says he wants it back, or tries to sell it to you now that it's working, then let him take it back (no one likes an 'indian giver', but it's his) and charge him $30-50 / hour for your time. If you weren't fixing YOUR welder, but were instead fixing HIS welder, then you were performing a service for which you should be compensated. He winds up with 2 working welders, you wind up with $100 in your pocket, everyone wins.

 

[GravityBrew]

I've got a HBS related question:

I normally use the same homebrew shop for supplies (but tend to mix online ordering or another shop out of convenience), and I'm a big spender on the days that I go; buy grain by the 50 or 55lb bag, hops by the pound, etc.. They normally give me great discounts because of quantity or will throw something in for free if its 1 non food item and they can skirt taxes. But, since I'm the only one who buys in bulk and they do all of their calculating by hand/price chart, they have on 3 separate occasions short changed themselves. I normally review my bill when I get home to catalog my software and call them back up to tell them they didn't charge me for x or didn't add right (the biggest mistake was leaving off a $70 bag of Marris Otter), giving my CC to make everything square.

Most recently they charged me $2 for a $12 item and I didn't call them on it. This is the 4th time they've shorted themselves and I don't feel bad because I've called them on the other 3 times and they should have learned their lesson by now. They will continue to get my business, but, did I do wrong?

 

[forstmeister]

I've got a HBS related question:

I normally use the same homebrew shop for supplies (but tend to mix online ordering or another shop out of convenience), and I'm a big spender on the days that I go; buy grain by the 50 or 55lb bag, hops by the pound, etc.. They normally give me great discounts because of quantity or will throw something in for free if its 1 non food item and they can skirt taxes. But, since I'm the only one who buys in bulk and they do all of their calculating by hand/price chart, they have on 3 separate occasions short changed themselves. I normally review my bill when I get home to catalog my software and call them back up to tell them they didn't charge me for x or didn't add right (the biggest mistake was leaving off a $70 bag of Marris Otter), giving my CC to make everything square.

Most recently they charged me $2 for a $12 item and I didn't call them on it. This is the 4th time they've shorted themselves and I don't feel bad because I've called them on the other 3 times and they should have learned their lesson by now. They will continue to get my business, but, did I do wrong?

I had the same issue with my lhbs when it first opened. Their POS system was not charging for certain items. I actually went back 2-3 different times to pay them for hops I got for free. It's only a mile away and I want them to succeed since they're nice and have great selection and competitive pricing. Maybe just bring it up in conversation next time you're there. Ask them if they've worked all the bugs out if the system as you can recall not paying enough and having to come back to pay more.

 

[forstmeister]

Here's a dilemma. I have a mechanic near my office that I use because its very convenient to drop off and pick up my car after work. He has always given me good rates and my car is always done on time.

The problem is he's an ******* to his employees. More than once I have been in the shop when he starts bitching some poor schmuck out for some perceived idiocy. It's very uncomfortable.

Here's the kicker: he was recently arrested for actual battery on an employee! Apparently he removed a hot thermostat from a car and burned the guy with it! I don't feel like I should continue to support him even though it is soooooo convenient for me to do so.

 

[GravityBrew]

I had the same issue with my lhbs when it first opened. Their POS system was not charging for certain items. I actually went back 2-3 different times to pay them for hops I got for free. It's only a mile away and I want them to succeed since they're nice and have great selection and competitive pricing. Maybe just bring it up in conversation next time you're there. Ask them if they've worked all the bugs out if the system as you can recall not paying enough and having to come back to pay more.

Their 'system' is ink and carbon paper. The bug that they have is not paying close attention.. and who knows, maybe the guy was giving me a discount without saying anything. They have a punch card system and the guy will punch my card 3 or 4 times/sack of grain, but I still haven't redeemed my 10% discounts because he sells me Marris Otter a $1/lb. I will bring it up next time I'm there, they have done an awesome job of getting people interested in the hobby and even forced a few of the local bars to start serving craft brew and not just BMC. The shop is about 4 blocks from my house, so again, they are not losing much money on me.

 

[GravityBrew]

Here's a dilemma. I have a mechanic near my office that I use because its very convenient to drop off and pick up my car after work. He has always given me good rates and my car is always done on time.

The problem is he's an ******* to his employees. More than once I have been in the shop when he starts bitching some poor schmuck out for some perceived idiocy. It's very uncomfortable.

Here's the kicker: he was recently arrested for actual battery on an employee! Apparently he removed a hot thermostat from a car and burned the guy with it! I don't feel like I should continue to support him even though it is soooooo convenient for me to do so.

Bitching out an employee is one thing (mostly because you might not know the entire back story), but after hearing about the assault, that's where my patronage would end.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

I've got a HBS related question:

I normally use the same homebrew shop for supplies (but tend to mix online ordering or another shop out of convenience), and I'm a big spender on the days that I go; buy grain by the 50 or 55lb bag, hops by the pound, etc.. They normally give me great discounts because of quantity or will throw something in for free if its 1 non food item and they can skirt taxes. But, since I'm the only one who buys in bulk and they do all of their calculating by hand/price chart, they have on 3 separate occasions short changed themselves. I normally review my bill when I get home to catalog my software and call them back up to tell them they didn't charge me for x or didn't add right (the biggest mistake was leaving off a $70 bag of Marris Otter), giving my CC to make everything square.

Most recently they charged me $2 for a $12 item and I didn't call them on it. This is the 4th time they've shorted themselves and I don't feel bad because I've called them on the other 3 times and they should have learned their lesson by now. They will continue to get my business, but, did I do wrong?

"Do wrong"? I'd say more of a missed opportunity.

But I would also say that taking the time to post this question is an important opportunity for you to do something good for yourself in considering what happened and whether you will do it again. This is regardless of whether or not you repay that specific $10 undercharge.

Part of paying back an undercharge is for the benefit of the business, part of the benefit is for you.

The one who took the risk of going into business, the business owner, will absolutely want to know ... and will appreciate it.

If you were undercharged, so are other people. Those sorts of losses can be part of the prescription for a brewers supply going out of business.

The benefit to you of re-paying the right amount when undercharged ... is that it reinforces a valuable habit. That is, being honest even when no one is looking.
The alternative is necessarily, a conscious decision to allow a lack of honesty in the way you think. It starts out as a “consciously allowed” moment or incident, but provides a precident, (and in this case a cash reinforcement) ... But once that gets ingrained in how you conduct yourself it is insidious ... and some day, you will make a decision, or worse - start making decisions, based on that willingness to be less than forthright, and it will either bite you hard in the ass ... or you will be known as less than honest in other people’s eyes.

If you make up the difference *after* the shift that you purchased it on, I would not just give cash to the cashier. You don’t want your money ending up in someone’s pocket. So, if you can return the money ON that very shift ... that will be fine as it will be accounted in properly ... as the cashiers don’t want their drawer to be short. If it is after the day and shift of purchase, use a personal check and add the memo that says “balance for items undercharged on xxx date”.

The other day, I was shopping at Kroger and when I got done checking out at the self-checkout, I was pushing the cart out of the store and a bagger was looking somewhat intently at me, I wondered briefly if he knew me. I got all the way to the car and when I went to put the groceries in the trunk I saw that I had missed paying for a can of coffee and a gallon of milk that had been obscured by the seat on the cart. So I headed back into the store and went back to self-checkout and ran those through and paid for them. As I pushed the cart out of the store again, the look on the bagger’s face seemed to be one of bewilderment. The feeling to having made an example of how to conduct myself to that young bagger was great ... but having done the right thing by myself was priceless . For about $9 I had a good feeling for the rest of the afternoon.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Jacob Marley nailed it, despite his name-sakes history... Honor - doing the right thing when no one is looking. 9 times out of 10, doing the right thing is for you more so than anyone else. In this case, doing the right thing would help your sense of honor, as well as the store's ability to stay in business and keep providing you beer making supplies.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

Jacob Marley nailed it, despite his name-sakes history...

Yes, but if you'll recall ... I, with my "ponderous chain forged in life", did repent ...

 

[Whsoj]

A friend has a welder, it's broken so he takes it to the place he bought it and they tell him it's going to be $300-$400 to fix it because the main circuit board is shot and it's out of warranty. He buys a new one instead of fixing the old one.

This friend knows I tinker with electronics and one night he sees me at the bar and asks if I want to look at this broken welder to see if I can get it running. I ask him how much he wants to spend to fix it assuming he is asking me to repair it for him. Instead, he told me the story in the first paragraph; he's already purchased a new one and I can just have the old one to see if I can fix it.

So, a month or so ago he drops it off on my back step, it's one of those compact wirefeed welders, a Millermatic 135. I do the obligatory Internet searching to see if there are any common problems and find that the circuit board issue is virtually always the driver transistor for the wire feed motor.

I do the confirmation checks and sure enough, it's the transistor shorted emitter to collector. It's going to cost $0.97 for the transistor and just under $3 for shipping from Digikey.

Is there any obligation to him for the welder, considering it's going to cost me less than $5 to fix it and maybe two hours time between the research and repair?

No It was a gift.

 

[chawagi]

OK. So I just finished a philosophy class dealing with ethics a few months ago. This was one of the most interesting classes I ever took. Really had some neat discusssions because there are no right or wrong answers to anything; just point/ counter-point.

Anyway, the week we dealt with Social Contract Theory of Ethics vs the State of Nature, this was the discussion question:

Players in the popular World of Warcraft Internet game often form "guilds" or groups that join together in mutual defense and to attack other groups. One dedicated member of such a guild died (in real-life, not in the game), and the members of her guild decided to hold a memorial service for her within the game that she loved. They announced the planned memorial on a World of Warcraft open forum, and one of the members of her guild logged into her account, and placed the deceased woman's character at her favorite game site, a lake. Other game characters from her guild came by the game site to pay their respects and honor their deceased gaming friend.

Members of a rival guild, on learning of the planned memorial, organized a "bombing attack" on the memorial service, thus destroying many of their rivals and winning kill points. Those game players who had participated in the memorial service were outraged, and accused the rival guild of being underhanded and disrespectful. Was the attack on the memorial service unfair? Was it morally wrong? Was it a violation of the gaming social contract? Explain.

Mull this over and give your opinions. I thought this was a neat scenario considering how seriously some people take these games, and how rapidly online relationships and lives are beginning to overshadow real-world existence.

Edit: Yes, I realize the irony of making this statement on an online forum so spare the sarcasm...lol

 

[Jacob_Marley]

OK. So I just finished a philosophy class dealing with ethics a few months ago. This was one of the most interesting classes I ever took. Really had some neat discusssions because there are no right or wrong answers to anything; just point/ counter-point.

Anyway, the week we dealt with Social Contract Theory of Ethics vs the State of Nature, this was the discussion question:

Players in the popular World of Warcraft Internet game often form "guilds" or groups that join together in mutual defense and to attack other groups. One dedicated member of such a guild died (in real-life, not in the game), and the members of her guild decided to hold a memorial service for her within the game that she loved. They announced the planned memorial on a World of Warcraft open forum, and one of the members of her guild logged into her account, and placed the deceased woman's character at her favorite game site, a lake. Other game characters from her guild came by the game site to pay their respects and honor their deceased gaming friend.

Members of a rival guild, on learning of the planned memorial, organized a "bombing attack" on the memorial service, thus destroying many of their rivals and winning kill points. Those game players who had participated in the memorial service were outraged, and accused the rival guild of being underhanded and disrespectful. Was the attack on the memorial service unfair? Was it morally wrong? Was it a violation of the gaming social contract? Explain.

Mull this over and give your opinions. I thought this was a neat scenario considering how seriously some people take these games, and how rapidly online relationships and lives are beginning to overshadow real-world existence.

Edit: Yes, I realize the irony of making this statement on an online forum so spare the sarcasm...lol

A direct corollary of this is the confusion of young people who think and act as though online interaction with someone whom they have never met in person or spent face-to-face time with, is a “relationship”.
Confused, sad, pitiful.
They are confusing the dry, definitional meaning of “relationship” with the real-world, practical definition whose implications are the real and full content of the human experience.
All cherubim are seraphim but not all seraphim are cherubim.
“Relationships” are multi-dimensional ... and not the narrow reality of a merely abstract pen-pal-like interaction. The narrow content of electronic interaction is just one aspect of the whole of our reality ... but just one part ... and by comparison to the multi-dimensional, synergistic, profound nature of our real-world existences ... just one anemic, watery, narrow part.

Humans have hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, both physical and societal, which has been formed by the full reality of our physical, mental and emotional experiences, and all of the interrelated effects that each of those spheres has on the whole.
Since the scourge of commercially propagated gaming addiction and online and electronic communication; peoples’ increasing unwillingness to distinguish between the full spectrum of reality and the insular, narrow scope of “artificial reality” has spread rapidly like crack addiction ... and uses some of the same electric circuits in our heads.
It is both faddish infatuation with this new electronic whiz-bangery, and also the succumbing of our humanity (what makes us human - particularly in society) to artificial stimulus .
A type of stimulus-addiction that is analogous to someone being so addicted to masturbation that the rest of their lives suffer ... suffer both from the time it takes from their limited allotment of time that fate will give them (to be what by anthropologic standards, is "human"), and also the *health* that actually dealing with reality, provides.

Now ... with regard to your specific question ...

I am not surprised that the attackers did not, or would not, distinguish between reality (the tragedy of losing someone in the physical world) and the game they were playing.
Btw: It is completely notwithstanding that her interaction with everyone involved was through electronic gaming ... every single person knew that she existed as a real human being with the same needs and wants and loves ... and divinity ... that we all have.

If they reacted that way because they are jerky human arseholes ... then fine ... humans have acted abominably to each other since the dawn of civilization.
If they acted that way because their minds have been warped (a really good term for this) by their unnatural insular interaction with electronica, then that is the manifestation of an unfortunate pathology that we are likely to see more and more of as people struggle to remain human in the face of interacting electronically while as a consequence their personal character slowly dissolves ... as it does in substance abuse.

 

[chawagi]

I am not surprised that the attackers did not, or would not, distinguish between reality (the tragedy of losing someone in the physical world) and the game they were playing.

You seem to be taking the same stance I took in that it was definitely a violation of accepted norms in real world society, and a failure to properly respect the somber observance of death rituals.

However, the game itself occurs in a virtual world where the State of Nature is the norm (i.e. ultimately it is every man for him- or herself) and Social Contracts (i.e. I don't want you to kill me or steal my stuff, so I agree not to do these things to you) exist only as far as is necessary to accomplish a shared goal.

Since the attack occured in game where those attacked presumably understood and acknowledged the possibility of such an attack, and they themselves failed to prepare for such a possibility by defending themselves, can the behavior really be classified as non-moral or unethical in regards to the social contract all players enter when participating in the game?

 

[mbauer013]

I thought you had to accept other Palyer Charachter challenges in order for them to attack you, or at least have an option toggled on. To my mind this was completely acceptable, if it occured as written, as the WoW world is very like the dark ages in terms or ethics. Back then they would often take advantage of a holiday or gathering to attack the people when their guard is down. Heck, look at the Viet Nam war and the Tet offensive, all is fair in war, and the game is the World of Warcraft.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

Since the attack occured in game where those attacked presumably understood and acknowledged the possibility of such an attack, and they themselves failed to prepare for such a possibility by defending themselves, can the behavior really be classified as non-moral or unethical in regards to the social contract all players enter when participating in the game?

There was no "game" ... she died.
The perspective here is one of the real world, not the gaming world ... she actually died.
This was not merely her character in the game dying and then the attackers attacked. She died in real life.
All bets are off ... all games are off.
The attack activity within the game was the equivalent of having sent her friends/acquaintances on that gaming site a "F*ck you and f*ck her, she was a worthless #*$%@!!*!" greeting card.

 

[CGVT]

There was no "game" ... she died.
The perspective here is one of the real world, not the gaming world ... she actually died.
This was not merely her character in the game dying and then the attackers attacked. She died in real life.
All bets are off ... all games are off.
The attack activity within the game was the equivalent of having sent her friends/acquaintances on that gaming site a "F*ck you and f*ck her, she was a worthless #*$%@!!*!" greeting card.

She was never attacked. She was dead

Th attack was in the game. The game is never off. It was an attack of imaginary characters on imaginary characters within the game.

He friends that planned the memorial are nut cases if they expect there to be the dignity that is shown to a human be the same as that shown to a character in a game.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

She was never attacked. She was dead

Th attack was in the game. The game is never off. It was an attack of imaginary characters on imaginary characters within the game.

He friends that planned the memorial are nut cases if they expect there to be the dignity that is shown to a human be the same as that shown to a character in a game.

They were honoring her, not her character, as a result of her death in REAL LIFE.
Had she not died in real life her friends on the game would not have been memorializing her.
Whatever the memorial ... in a game, at a service, at public memorial of art or a marker, or even just in conversation with others, when someone (or a group) does something to demean the honor her friends online were trying to bestow after her REAL LIFE death, they are deciding to either act like arseholes, or are confused as to the appropriateness of their gesture, or both.

Like I say, I have no problem with the slight as long as it was intentional. People act poorly to each other all the time.
What I have a problem with is when people can't discern between something that happens in real life, such as a real death, and things that are make-believe.

As we move further and further toward virtual representations of things in the real world ... grand theft auto, black ops etc ... online gaming ... or online "relationships", it becomes increasingly more important that we stop and consider the implication of our electronic behavior and how it relates to the real world ... and IMPORTANTLY how we mentally process "situational experiences" that have a very strong component of realism such that our minds perceive those situations, in part, as real.
Our perceptions are no longer tried-and-true ... now, in the virtual and electronic world, we have to stop and interpret what our minds perceive as to whether and how reality is involved.

 

[CGVT]

What I have a problem with is when people can't discern between something that happens in real life, such as a real death, and things that are make-believe.

Exactly. Those that were memorializing her in the game and were upset or even surprised by the attack could not do this.

To those that play that game, the memorial was part of the game, as such, the characters at the memorial were fair game (pun intended). To expect otherwise was silly.

 

[Cromwell]

A direct corollary of this is the confusion of young people who think and act as though online interaction with someone whom they have never met in person or spent face-to-face time with, is a “relationship”.
Confused, sad, pitiful.

Actually, you're wrong here. A "relationship" is defined as
re·la·tion·ship [ri-ley-shuhn-ship] noun
1. a connection, association, or involvement.

So, by the definition, everyone in the guild has a relationship with this person since they all associate.

Second, just because you haven't developed a strong relationship with someone online, don't think it doesn't happen. I have played WoW, and have made some very good friends. Sometimes, on-line relationships are extended into off-line or rt. Like many things, there is a very broad spectrum of on-line relationships.