Equally Obnoxious Hockey Trash Talk Thread, eh?

[paulster2626]

The problem is the League has too many teams losing money. They have nothing TO give the players in exchange for a smaller share of revenue and a tighter control on spending. What COULD they give? Please, someone answer this question. They've explained their plight with rising expenses not matching incoming dollars, and have also explained the issues regarding insuring long-term contracts. I honestly do believe they are trying to fix the League and create something that can be healthy for a majority of the 30 teams. For whatever reason the players remain steadfast in their refusal to give up something that affects 60 players (contracts longer than 6 years), and want to fight to salvage 10% or so of salary while losing 20%.

I keep hearing that they need to have a partnership - well they tried creating a partnership with the PA and it was refused. The PA has no interest in partnering with anyone. They've had the NHL's financial statements for a long time now, and have never disputed their claims of financial distress. Instead they just keep demanding more, more, more, and don't realize that the pile in which they're getting paid from won't exist for many if current trends continue.

The greed and unwillingness of the players to work towards a solution in all of this is disheartening. Fehr is the worst thing to happen to pro hockey players, ever.

 

[jtkratzer]

Again, I disagree. It sounds like you are laying a lot of blame on the players here. They're fighting to keep what they have left after the last two lockouts. They're not asking for more. They're not asking for 70/30 split, they're demanding to keep what they have.

I have a problem with the league demanding the players take less to fix their mistakes of putting hockey where it doesn't belong, hasn't succeeded, and won't succeed. Look at the ratings when Edmonton and Carolina were in the finals or when Tampa won compared to the Flyers and Hawks a few years ago.

I have a problem with the financial crisis the league has put itself in with these contracts, all the way up to the waning hours of the last CBA only to gripe and complain about those same contracts.

There are two sides here and the one side shouldn't be forced to make concessions because of the mistakes of the other side. The one side shouldn't be responsible for taking a cut in pay and rights to put a temporary band-aid on a problem that won't be fixed by the players making less money.

Reduced player salaries, longer RFA contracts, less arbitration, etc aren't going to sell more tickets, vending products, hats, etc.

The problem exists because the league continues to ram hockey down the throats of markets where as much as some people want it, not enough do to support it. Two failed Atlanta franchises, multiple in California, and even in Canada. The league needs to realize it's never going to compete with any of the other three major sports leagues in North America and stop forcing the players to finance their failed experiments.

 

[paulster2626]

Again, I disagree. It sounds like you are laying a lot of blame on the players here. They're fighting to keep what they have left after the last two lockouts. They're not asking for more. They're not asking for 70/30 split, they're demanding to keep what they have.

By keeping what they have, the League says it cannot afford to exist. That is the problem.

The problem exists because the league continues to ram hockey down the throats of markets where as much as some people want it, not enough do to support it. Two failed Atlanta franchises, multiple in California, and even in Canada. The league needs to realize it's never going to compete with any of the other three major sports leagues in North America and stop forcing the players to finance their failed experiments.

So contraction is the answer? Relocate franchises to whatever flavour-of-the-month city seems fit? Man the players hate this just as much as the owners.

No, the PA asked for more revenue sharing. A lot more. And the owners capitulated. But it was still not enough.... but hey, they just "want to play", right?

By the way, solid work by Shea Weber signing that ridiculous deal from insane Philly owner Snider and holding Nashville hostage. Him and his agent really had the health of the League involved in that one, eh? Or does the onus rely solely on the shoulders of the owners here? Sure - maybe the players do have zero responsibility when it comes to the health of the entire League. Maybe it's all the responsibility of the owners. But that means they get to write the rules.

If what the NHL says is true, then the money just isn't there to keep paying these guys what they're getting. No amount of refusing to negotiate or disclaimers of interest are going to fix that, and it's a losing battle.

 

[jtkratzer]

By keeping what they have, the League says it cannot afford to exist. That is the problem.

And who started those franchises? Who built the areans? Who did the paperwork and went through the process to get a team? Certainly wasn't the players.

So contraction is the answer? Relocate franchises to whatever flavour-of-the-month city seems fit? Man the players hate this just as much as the owners.

Uh, yeah. Simple. Eliminate the teams that can't fend for themselves. If you don't have a product that's capable of making a profit, or at least breaking even, then that product should come off the shelf, not be subsidized by those who are doing a good job of putting a product on the ice and marketing it well enough to make a profit.

You know what? I bet they hate not playing and consistent lockouts and being told they have to pay the way of the failing teams more than relocating. Lots of people move across country to make more money at a better job. My dad did it 5 times. I lived in 5 states before I was 12 (no, he's not military). You make new friends and learn your way around a new town. Life goes on. I'd rather move and improve the finances with a better job with better take home pay than stick around with no chance of improvement.

This is worse than corporate welfare from the government - make your competitors pay your bills when you're in the red. It's genius if you're the recipient, but it's ludicrous to expect teams who are competing against each other for talent, championships, viewers, fans to buy their swag, etc to pay the way of those who can't manage on their own.

By the way, solid work by Shea Weber signing that ridiculous deal from insane Philly owner Snider and holding Nashville hostage.

Philly has the money and the market to make a profit by paying him that contract. Nashville had every chance not to match. That's on them. The rules of the CBA are what they are and Philly didn't do anything that wasn't allowed by the rules.

Too many teams aim for the salary floor and then complain when they don't draw crowds, or turn profits, or win anything, or say they can't afford to pay the contracts that wealthier teams can.

Who's fault is that? This is sounding more and more like a debate on wealth distrubition in society than it is a hockey debate. I am inherently guilty or at fault that my neighbor isn't as financially well of as I am simply because I am more well off? Did my success take from his pocket? Should I be obligated to pay his way? Sounds crazy when you start thinking of it that way, especially if his failure and financial crisis are due to mismanagement or living beyond his means. It was easy for Nashville to match that contract when they'll collect their subsidy of hockey revenue from the other teams.

This is a lengthy article, but it goes to show how much aid in state and local tax dollars, tax incentives, tax breaks, league revenue sharing, etc the Preds get and they still can't turn a profit.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/2...le-Predators-despite-ice-success-public-money

Even with the success on the ice and having had top tier talent on their roster, they're just not financially or fiscally successful. Why do we continue to bail water out of a sinking ship?

Profitability and sustainability of the league is the whole point of renegotiating the CBA, right? If I'm a player or union official, I demand the health of game be the number one priority and the teams that can't fend for themselves are closed up. Sucks, people lose jobs and it's way more involved than the players and team staff/management, as explained in the article about the revenue created by the fans around the arena, but bad/failing/faltering businesses should not be sustained by making someone else pay for it without fixing the true problem at hand - the failing teams.

Him and his agent really had the health of the League involved in that one, eh? Or does the onus rely solely on the shoulders of the owners here? Sure - maybe the players do have zero responsibility when it comes to the health of the entire League. Maybe it's all the responsibility of the owners. But that means they get to write the rules.

If the owners have an issue with the contract length or dollar amount, they should be the first ones to stop offering them. But since the rules allow them, if they want a player, they're going to have to offer a sufficiently attractive enough contract to draw that player to their team, and if they don't do it, another GM will.

Sure, if they get to write the rules, then they compete on a level playing field against all the other leagues around the planet and the players go where the money is.

If what the NHL says is true, then the money just isn't there to keep paying these guys what they're getting. No amount of refusing to negotiate or disclaimers of interest are going to fix that, and it's a losing battle.

And that's the wrong focus. It's not about paying the players. It's about paying the red ink on the failing franchises. The players play the game. They are the on ice product that draws the fans in and the central piece in the game of NHL Jenga. Without them, or sufficiently talented players to replace them, the house of cards comes crashing down.

The players cannot make people watch at home, or buy hot dogs and jerseys. The players are not the marketing department. They don't develop or execute the advertising or budgets. The players are responsible for their play on the ice and their image/likeability to the fans. When teams are established where no amount of success or marketing is going to turn a profit, like what Nashville and Phoenix are dealing with, those teams need to close up shop or move.

It's the only solution to a chronic and terminal problem the league is always going to face and until they face reality that these failing teams have to go or change their business models, they're always going to look to take from the players and the successful teams.

The NHL = Barack Obama of the sports world. If you're successful, you will pay the way of those who are less successful. If you don't like, f**k off.

 

[arturo7]

There are teams struggling to stay afloat and the players want more money.

**** those guys. When it gets right down to it they're just a bunch of modern-day circus freaks.

 

[jtkratzer]

There are teams struggling to stay afloat and the players want more money.

**** those guys. When it gets right down to it they're just a bunch of modern-day circus freaks.

And the league and owners who think the players should take less to pay the red ink on failing franchises are idiotic socialists.

Manage your team, assets, and finances properly while putting a competitive product on the ice that you successfully market and you won't be in the red.

 

[Homercidal]

There are teams struggling to stay afloat and the players want more money.

**** those guys. When it gets right down to it they're just a bunch of modern-day circus freaks.

Not true. There are teams who poorly manage their salaries AND other expenses and struggle to stay afloat.

They are the same teams who offer players more money than they can afford to pay.

Last time I checked, a team never had to pay more than they offered and agreed to pay a player. They have every right to NOT pay that player their demanded salary.

 

[paulster2626]

Not true. There are teams who poorly manage their salaries AND other expenses and struggle to stay afloat.

They are the same teams who offer players more money than they can afford to pay.

Last time I checked, a team never had to pay more than they offered and agreed to pay a player. They have every right to NOT pay that player their demanded salary.

Which teams? How would you even know this?

I guess you haven't checked to see if there is a cap floor or not. They are forced to offer certain amounts of revenue %.

System is broken, owners are trying to fix it, players want status quo.

 

[jtkratzer]

Which teams? How would you even know this?

I guess you haven't checked to see if there is a cap floor or not. They are forced to offer certain amounts of revenue %.

System is broken, owners are trying to fix it, players want status quo.

I'm not a fan of the cap floor, however, there are plenty of players out there worth the salaries they command to put a roster together to meet the cap floor. The problem is, players want to playe where they can win. And if a team is not committed to putting sufficient talent on the ice to win, why wouldn anyone other than guys who want to stay in the league and can't get jobs elsewhere want to go there?

There are plenty of franchises that are boat anchored by terrible contracts and mismanagement and lack of commitment to winning. If I were an elite player or even a top 25% player, I wouldn't want to go there. Those teams are rebuilt through the draft process like Pittsburgh was (whether or not you think it was an inside job on their draft lottery where they got a slew of elite players is besides the point). They're an example of how the draft system is built to fix poor teams. However, if those teams can't afford or aren't willing to pay the players once those RFA and entry level contracts are up, then they leave and the teams fall back to mediocrity only to repeat the process.

How long will Stamkos stay in Tampa or any of the wonder boys that Edmonton has drafted over the last few years stick around?

I see both sides of the story here, but until the league addresses the root cause of the financial problems - putting teams where they can't succeed financially, along with player and team mismanagment, no amount of salary or contract term reduction will fix the red ink.

I have no problem with the players feeling entitled to a percentage of hockey revenue vs a hard, fixed number. The right balance and percentages needs to be worked out for the teams to be profitable or at least break even, but that is simply not possible with an alarming number of franchises.

Until that is addressed, I'm not really in the league's corner on much of anything.

Just like the auto bailout - Pontiac is gone, Hummer is gone, etc. The cancers and parasites on the financial health of the league must be cut off. No amount of success or CBA negotiation is going to fix things like the contracts the Islanders offered Alexi Yashin or Rick DiPietro. You can't fix stupid.

 

[paulster2626]

The PA has said none of this though. So really there is no evidence of what you're saying to be true.

The PA has said that an increased revenue sharing model would be the solution. That was what they wanted the League to concede, and they did. The NHL has proposed to go from $150 million all the way up to $220 million (I think that's what the last offer had, can't remember). The PA wants $260 million.

It seems you are pinning the current financial issues on the League's expansion in to southern markets - the NHLPA was just as much on board with this as the NHL, and yet you feel they should not have to share in fixing it.

Also I haven't heard the PA say that teams lose money because they are so grossly mismanaged - they have had access to the financial statements for a long time now - if this were true, it would be a damn good point to bring up rather than just stomping their feet and saying "NO".

 

[Homercidal]

I guess what it comes down to is who is willing to concede to make a deal happen. If one side isn't willing to do a little give and take, then both sides are screwed, no matter which side you find yourself backing.

Maybe the best thing is to just give up and not play hockey. The league seems to be making out pretty good so far with that tact.

 

[jtkratzer]

I'm not saying the players shouldn't help fix it. I said the proposals by the league asking the players to take all these concessions in pay and rights doesn't fix the root cause of the problem. Regardless of who is at fault, the bleeding has to be stopped before any hope of financial balance and stability can be achieved. Out earning your red ink isn't really an option as demonstrated by back to back to back record revenues and there's still all this red ink across the league.

If arenas are losing money at concert events, as stated in the article about Nashville, there really isn't an income level sufficiently low enough to balance the books that will keep the players in the NHL.

I'm not debating for one side or the other. I'm trying to play the disinterested third party who sees both sides. I'm vehemently against unions and wholeheartedly support the right to work concept. I'm a business owner myself. But I realize the talent on the ice is the league's foundation. It takes two to tango. If I'm an owner, I want to win championships and make money. If I'm a player, I want to win championships and make money. We have the same goals, only issue is the more the players make, the more the owners have to cut into profits to pay them. Supply and demand. There has to be a balance where both parties are happy.

The owners and league need to figure out a model that keeps the financially solvent to ensure the league continues to exist and do so in a manner that the players will accept and play the game. It's that simple. And it's that complicated.

No different than the fiscal cliff in the US, expect there are no voters or lobbyists in the NHL, just the fans who want to see the games.

Both sides in both cases seem unwilling to make or accept the difficult choices. Players need to realize their employers need to be profitable and the owners need to realize the players are their cash cows and should be treated (read paid) accordingly. Both sides need to make all financial bits and particulars public to show the crisis that exists.

Owners have the power as the employer to write the rules. If the players don't like it, they can go elsewhere and the owners settle for a reduction of talent on the ice that likely impacts profits. The players need to realize the owners have to make money to keep the teams operating. If they don't like it, they go elsewhere.

 

[Gixxer]

Watched a Nashville predators game last night from 1999... Was supposed to be a highlight type game for them but the devils were up 2-0 in the second before I turned it off?? Huh. Might have been one of those comeback games...

 

[Homercidal]

I watched a few minutes of a Chicago game from like 94 or something. Chelios was still playing for them. After the few minute or two of interest in the hair and clothes of the day, I gave up. Just a bunch of dudes I learned to dislike playing in STANDARD DEFINITION!

I couldn't take it.

 

[Gixxer]

HAHA!!! That was before the rule changes... Maybe even still used magnets in the goal posts! Standard def?? What a travesty... How could anybody see the puck movement watching those cave drawings??!! Lol you think that's bad go to YouTube and watch B&W footage of games from way before '94

 

[Gixxer]

Haha watching that game I saw Oliwa pound some predators face into oblivion. And since we are name dropping how bout randy McKay or cliff Ronning?

 

[schmoe]

I watched a few minutes of a Chicago game from like 94 or something. Chelios was still playing for them. After the few minute or two of interest in the hair and clothes of the day, I gave up. Just a bunch of dudes I learned to dislike playing in STANDARD DEFINITION!

I couldn't take it.

Even worse than standard def is standard def with the blue streak following way behind the actual puck.

 

[MeatyPortion]

lol

"Hey this should in no way perturb any of our fans!" - likely by some FOX executive after his second eight-ball

http://ictvictor.wordpress.com/2011/04/24/foxtrax-puck-tracking-failure/

 

[jtkratzer]

Looks like NHL '94 on Super Nintendo, wait, that actually might look better than what's pictured above.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Looks like NHL '94 on Super Nintendo, wait, that actually might look better than what's pictured above.

I still play that game. One of the best ever.

 

[jtkratzer]

I still play that game. One of the best ever.

On SNES? I played that game a lot. Does the dump in from the blue line while skating straight at the goal score every time on the system you're using, if not SNES?

 

[paulster2626]

So the Canadian Jr. team loses to the dirty Finns today. No matter - we're just getting warmed up. Hell, as long as they beat those silly American kids, I'll be happy.


(I normally don't care about this tourney - at all - but this thread has a way too high of a butthurt/trash-talk ratio)

So Fehr and Bettman, screw your stupid lockout - there's some good hockey on for the next couple of weeks!

 

[Homercidal]

World Juniors? Have never watched. I'll be tuning into that fo sho.

Plus the Florida College Hockey Classic is coming up, in which Ferris Bulldogs are playing. Just have to find a way to watch it. Or even listen to it.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

On SNES? I played that game a lot. Does the dump in from the blue line while skating straight at the goal score every time on the system you're using, if not SNES?

On PS2. NHL '06 on PS2 came with a "retro '94" mode. Played it on SNES growing up, though. A LOT.

Yeah, the same old tricks work on the PS2 version that worked on the original SNES. Awesome game.

 

[Gixxer]

Meh... I would expect the Canadians to play better hockey than Americans. I mean, come on! They just got the internet in Canada what, two weeks ago?

 

[paulster2626]

Meh... I would expect the Canadians to play better hockey than Americans. I mean, come on! They just got the internet in Canada what, two weeks ago?

Pretty much. We've been too busy drinking real beer to worry about mindless online ramblings about gun control. That, and it's too damn cold up here - hard to type with mittens on, you know?

 

[solbes]

World Juniors? Have never watched. I'll be tuning into that fo sho.

Plus the Florida College Hockey Classic is coming up, in which Ferris Bulldogs are playing. Just have to find a way to watch it. Or even listen to it.

World Juniors is the Shiz. I'll be watching. I should have watched the US OT win against Sweden.

Best case, I wanna see Bulldog vs Bulldog in Florida. Duluth vs Ferris. Duluth Dogs win of course.

Fehr and Bettman can shove it. They suck.

 

[Homercidal]

World Juniors is the Shiz. I'll be watching. I should have watched the US OT win against Sweden.

Best case, I wanna see Bulldog vs Bulldog in Florida. Duluth vs Ferris. Duluth Dogs win of course.

Fehr and Bettman can shove it. They suck.

In your dreams. :eyeroll: Ferris has not been playing to their abilities every game this year and have a lot of younger players, but they will step up for the tourney (as long as they don't get sidetracked by the warm sun and hot ladies of the Sunshine State.)

 

[dudius]

Pretty much. We've been too busy drinking real beer to worry about mindless online ramblings about gun control. That, and it's too damn cold up here - hard to type with mittens on, you know?

Your depiction of the US is too accurate for me to believe you're from Canada.

In your dreams. :eyeroll: Ferris has not been playing to their abilities every game this year and have a lot of younger players, but they will step up for the tourney (as long as they don't get sidetracked by the warm sun and hot ladies of the Sunshine State.)

Let's hope so.

 

[Leeds1]

The owners wanted to create a partnership with the PA a long time ago. Bettman was working with Paul Kelly well before the CBA was close to expiring, and the PA saw this as an act of weakness and organized a late-night coup to get rid of him (he was fired at 2am).

Then, they bring in Donald Fehr. This is a guy with a track record of work stoppages, and has said time and again he is 100% opposed to salary caps. He was brought in not to work with the League and create harmony, but to start a war.

Bettman and the League offered to begin negotiations waaaaaaay back in January of 2012, the PA said no. Bettman wanted to begin working on a new CBA near the end of the season, the PA said no. Bettman wanted to get going on a new CBA early in the summer - PA said no. So the NHL concocts some asinine proposal to get things started, and the PA says "this is insane" and then takes an entire month to counter. Funny thing is the proposal was a complete reversal to what the owners/player split was during the last CBA.

Anyway, if the League had just continued to play, the players would hold all the leverage as they'd be able to strike whenever they wanted. Donald Fehr has a reputation for work disruption, and this would have been no different.

One side has been dragging its feet and unwilling to cooperate, and it's the NHLPA. The owners list of demands is high, but the unwillingness of the PA to work off of their requests is what has cost us 1/2 a season and created such animosity in the boardroom. At least, that's how I see it.

Either way I think every single person involved in this can suck a big one. This shouldn't be so difficult to sort out.

Absolutely ridiculous. This 100% on the owners.

 

[rjwhite41]

Fehr and Bettman can shove it. They suck.

Just needed to be repeated (again, and again, and again, and again...)

 

[paulster2626]

Hahahah this made me laugh. The NHL is so out to lunch it's comical.

 

[jtkratzer]

Hahahah this made me laugh. The NHL is so out to lunch it's comical.

I commented on that fairly early and was hoping to see my comment.

 

[Bulls Beers]

Brewing beer and watching Junior hockey..It's not the NHL, but it's really good. USA vs Russia These kids are very talented...

 

[jtkratzer]

Brewing beer and watching Junior hockey..It's not the NHL, but it's really good. USA vs Russia These kids are very talented...

I had the US/Germany game on last night until we put Dark Knight Rises in.

 

[paulster2626]

Brewing beer and watching Junior hockey..It's not the NHL, but it's really good. USA vs Russia These kids are very talented...

World Junior hockey is awesome. Kids all go balls-out trying to win. Every game matters.

Make sure you catch Canada vs. USA on New Year's Eve. Annual tradition, and these teams hate each other.

 

[Bulls Beers]

I had the US/Germany game on last night until we put Dark Knight Rises in.

That was a good game until 19 seconds in... I thought Germany was gonna play better. I think they have to play Russia next. Yikes, that's a tall task.

 

[Bulls Beers]

World Junior hockey is awesome. Kids all go balls-out trying to win. Every game matters.

Make sure you catch Canada vs. USA on New Year's Eve. Annual tradition, and these teams hate each other.

That's gonna be a good game. I can't wait.

 

[HoppyDaze]

We got hockey here Portland. Western Hockey League....very quality play without the political nonsense. Winterhawks are killing it this year too

 

[BorealBrewer]

When our boys was down 3 goals against Slovakia, I was sweating more than when I'm paddling my canoe on Canada Day wearing a toque!!!

Nice comeback, though, eh?

(Sorry, everyone. World Jr. Hockey + beer makes me go all super-Canadian!)

Looking forward to Can-US on the 30th. First time I'll be watching Scheifle and Trouba on the same surface - two names I'll be hearing here in Wpg for years!

Hoppy Daze: +1 on the Winterhawks being awesome hockey. I saw the 'Hawks play the Wheat Kings in Brandon back at the beginning of the season.