Enzymes

[danz]

Does anyone have connections to get promalt? I am going to see if I cant get it from my LHBS (which also happens to be a brewer) but if I cannot do you think this combination would suffice for non malted GF grains?

Alpha-Amylase Enzyme

Gluco-Amylase Enzyme

 

[igliashon]

Both of these are saccharification enzymes, and will not do much for liberating proteins and dissolving beta-glucans in the grains. You can probably get away with using them on rice and corn, but there's not much point in doing that because the resulting beer won't taste much different than if you'd just used rice syrup or corn syrup (trust me, I tried it). I wonder if you could find enzymes at a health food store? You want to look for endo-protease and beta-glucanase.

 

[SouthernGorilla]

As I understand it, a cereal mash for barley brews is just boiling unmalted grains to break them down so the enzymes can do their thing. If that is the case then I don't see why grinding and boiling gluten-free grains wouldn't produce a wort suitable for the amylase enzymes. I hope it works because I'm planning to try exactly that.

 

[Osedax]

Believe igliashon. He's done a bunch of these experiments. You will need a wider arrange of enzymes. Its most likely cheaper and easier to malt your grains. The malting process does things other than producing just enzymes.

 

[igliashon]

As I understand it, a cereal mash for barley brews is just boiling unmalted grains to break them down so the enzymes can do their thing. If that is the case then I don't see why grinding and boiling gluten-free grains wouldn't produce a wort suitable for the amylase enzymes. I hope it works because I'm planning to try exactly that.

Yes, but "the enzymes" are not just saccharification enzymes. Malted barley contains a variety of important enzymes that do more than just convert starch to sugar. In grains that are high in protein and/or high in beta glucans, such as quinoa, oats, or buckwheat, you need additional enzymes to help break down the beta-glucans and long protein chains in order a) provide proper nutrients for the yeast, b) liquefy the mash to aid in saccharification, and c) produce wort of a thin and clear consistency.

In my experiments using simply an amylase blend on cereal-mashed unmalted grains, I was never able to achieve an efficiency above 45%. My worts all came out thick and cloudy and fermented poorly, producing a variety of off-flavors and generally being poorly attenuated. When I switched to the Promalt (an enzyme blend containing beta-glucanase and protease as well as both alpha- and beta-amylase), my results improved drastically. My efficiency with Promalt is around 70-80%, depending on the grains, and my all-grain (or mostly all-grain) beers ferment as nicely as my extract batches. If you can achieve that with just amylase, I'd love to know the secret!

Of course, proper flavor development is something I'm still working on. But that's a different post!

 

[EvanLouis]

So what about malted quinoa and malted barley and using amylase? Will that give me a decent mash or even a partial mash and I can supplement it with sorghum extract?

 

[beljica]

Igliashon! How did that cocktail work out, make any cool brews? I haven't gotten on this site for a while because I've been so busy! Danz, yes you can buy it if you know a someone that owns a brewery or has access to suppliers. Other wise your out of luck. I know they developed a new mix that doesn't require hitting the gelatinization temp but I don't know when that's available or the pricing of it.

Man I can't wait to get home from Alaska and brew! I'm planning a few batched of blond and a double ipa. I can't brew where I am now though because it's illegal in this town.

I am home August!!!!!!!

 

[SouthernGorilla]

In my experiments using simply an amylase blend on cereal-mashed unmalted grains, I was never able to achieve an efficiency above 45%. My worts all came out thick and cloudy and fermented poorly, producing a variety of off-flavors and generally being poorly attenuated. When I switched to the Promalt (an enzyme blend containing beta-glucanase and protease as well as both alpha- and beta-amylase), my results improved drastically. My efficiency with Promalt is around 70-80%, depending on the grains, and my all-grain (or mostly all-grain) beers ferment as nicely as my extract batches. If you can achieve that with just amylase, I'd love to know the secret!

Interesting. I would have expected prolonged boiling to be more effective at breaking down starches and proteins.

Still, I plan to try it myself. My grains are just adjuncts for my meads. So peak efficiency is not much of a concern

 

[igliashon]

So what about malted quinoa and malted barley and using amylase? Will that give me a decent mash or even a partial mash and I can supplement it with sorghum extract?

Yes, that should work just fine. Haven't tried it, but IIRC there are people here who do use just amylase to boost the efficiency when mashing with malted GF grains. Just make sure NOT to cereal mash first, and instead do an infusion or decoction mash, so that you don't destroy the enzymes of the grains.

 

[igliashon]

Igliashon! How did that cocktail work out, make any cool brews? I haven't gotten on this site for a while because I've been so busy! Danz, yes you can buy it if you know a someone that owns a brewery or has access to suppliers. Other wise your out of luck. I know they developed a new mix that doesn't require hitting the gelatinization temp but I don't know when that's available or the pricing of it.

Man I can't wait to get home from Alaska and brew! I'm planning a few batched of blond and a double ipa. I can't brew where I am now though because it's illegal in this town.

I am home August!!!!!!!

Beljica! Ha ha, I thought you'd vanished. Dude, this Promalt is gold. I find I get the best results when I add an additional dose of pure amylase once I hit saccharification temperature, but it sure has made a difference. I've made some excellent beers with this stuff.

 

[igliashon]

Interesting. I would have expected prolonged boiling to be more effective at breaking down starches and proteins.

If prolonged boiling could break down starches and proteins into useable form for fermentation, why would anyone bother malting and mashing grains when they could just boil the piss out of them? Boiling can break down cell walls and solubilize the starches, but that's as far as it takes them. Boil all you like, you won't get the starches to break down into sugars or free up the proteins for yeast metabolism.

Still, I plan to try it myself. My grains are just adjuncts for my meads. So peak efficiency is not much of a concern

Well, I have to wonder why you'd bother with the trouble of doing the whole mashing process if you're not concerned with getting fermentables out of it. Why not just steep the grains? I mean, you're welcome to give it a try, but I'm not sure what you're really hoping to get out of it that you couldn't get with just a simple steep. Maybe try steeping first to see if it gives you what you're after, before trying something more elaborate?

 

[SouthernGorilla]

If prolonged boiling could break down starches and proteins into useable form for fermentation, why would anyone bother malting and mashing grains when they could just boil the piss out of them? Boiling can break down cell walls and solubilize the starches, but that's as far as it takes them. Boil all you like, you won't get the starches to break down into sugars or free up the proteins for yeast metabolism.

I never said it would break them down into fermentable sugars. I said it could break them down so the amylase enzyme could work on them. You even said yourself that you've done it and got 45% efficiency.

Well, I have to wonder why you'd bother with the trouble of doing the whole mashing process if you're not concerned with getting fermentables out of it. Why not just steep the grains? I mean, you're welcome to give it a try, but I'm not sure what you're really hoping to get out of it that you couldn't get with just a simple steep. Maybe try steeping first to see if it gives you what you're after, before trying something more elaborate?

The idea would be to do a head-to-head comparison between mashed and steeped versions of the same grain to see what the difference really is. The process of mashing, even if it is just boiling and adding enzyme, has to alter the flavor profile. The only way to know for sure is to try and see. Why did you try it instead of just steeping?

And apparently dry heat does break starches into simpler sugars. So roasting grains before boiling them in a cereal mash should produce at least some fermentable sugar along with plenty of sugars for the amylase to work on. Why don't people do this already? Tradition. Plus the normal way is probably the only way to get the right flavor profiles for traditional recipes. But if I can produce a potable beverage without having to go to the trouble of malting gluten-free grains or the expense and hassle of finding and buying malted gluten-free grains then I will. But I'll never know if it's possible if I don't try it for myself. Because what you look for in a drink is likely completely different from what I look for. So I can't just rely on your opinion of what's worthwhile or not.

 

[EvanLouis]

Yes, that should work just fine. Haven't tried it, but IIRC there are people here who do use just amylase to boost the efficiency when mashing with malted GF grains. Just make sure NOT to cereal mash first, and instead do an infusion or decoction mash, so that you don't destroy the enzymes of the grains.

Quick correction: buckwheat, not barley. Autocorrect strikes again. In layman's terms, what would be the difference between a cereal and a decoction or infusion mash?

 

[SouthernGorilla]

Quick correction: buckwheat, not barley. Autocorrect strikes again. In layman's terms, what would be the difference between a cereal and a decoction or infusion mash?

A cereal mash is basically just boiling the grains to break down the structure. It's only used on adjunct grains because there's no worry about destroying the enzymes in those grains.

 

[Osedax]

Its used a bunch on oatmeal and rice when people forget to buy the quick cook or flaked versions.

A cereal mash is pointless without brewer's enzymes. This has been discussed many times. Someone should make a sticky of all the ways to convert grains.

A cereal mash will also change the flavor profile of your wort. I would never recommend it on clean profiles, such as an ipa.

Malted quinoa and buckwheat will work but, they have very high protein content. Brewer's enzyme would help break down the protein. Without it, expect a stuck sparge. I use special filtration when work with quinoa and buckwheat. Malted millet is the best grain I have found. Really reduces brew day headaches.

 

[beljica]

It really is awesome isn't it! I can't wait to get back to Washington and brew. I'm glad to hear that the enzymes worked out for you. Did you ever get your wort to run off clear with the promalt?

 

[beljica]

Also to answer your question about where to find a promalt enzy
I think that this might be promalt repackaged... I would call and ask or email for a data sheet.


http://www.brouwland.com/setframes/...ct.asp?cfid=4&id=4296&cat=1026&dt=24&shwlnk=0

 

[beljica]

Here is the data sheet, the link is on post 12. It actually is promalt from the looks of it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/ye-old-confused-brown-ale-389773/index2.html

 

[EvanLouis]

Its used a bunch on oatmeal and rice when people forget to buy the quick cook or flaked versions.

A cereal mash is pointless without brewer's enzymes. This has been discussed many times. Someone should make a sticky of all the ways to convert grains.

A cereal mash will also change the flavor profile of your wort. I would never recommend it on clean profiles, such as an ipa.

Malted quinoa and buckwheat will work but, they have very high protein content. Brewer's enzyme would help break down the protein. Without it, expect a stuck sparge. I use special filtration when work with quinoa and buckwheat. Malted millet is the best grain I have found. Really reduces brew day headaches.

Will amylase help? The last brew I did I used malted buckwheat and quinoa in a nylon bag, stuck it in a cooler with 170 degree water for an hour, ran out that water and did it again, the water was much lighter in color the second time. I probably made a huge mistake using that first batch of runoff, but it smelled so dang good. The beer is a little harsh but I enjoy it.

 

[Osedax]

Hope the 170F was your strike temp. It sounds like a good process to me. Amylase won't breakdown protein. Beta-glucanase and protease are what you need. Using very hot sparge water also can help. You can also do a protein rest. I use a combination of these methods depending on my grist.

I want to get my hands on some promalt to help reduce wort viscosity. I might check out that above product.

 

[Osedax]

Also to answer your question about where to find a promalt enzy
I think that this might be promalt repackaged... I would call and ask or email for a data sheet.


http://www.brouwland.com/setframes/...ct.asp?cfid=4&id=4296&cat=1026&dt=24&shwlnk=0

I checked this out. Seems really cool and I could definitely use it. Its not even that expensive. Like $7 for 100mL. That would be enough to last 10-20 batches. The shipping is ridiculous. Like $30. Anyone know where I could get this stateside? If I was in Europe, I would buy this right now.

 

[beljica]

I have a few liters but it's going to expire in about 6 months and I am not anywhere near home for at least 2 more months.

 

[BrewCanuck]

The company that makes the Beerzym Multi is Erbslöh. From their site you can find a supplier in North America, IDL Consulting out of British Columbia. They don't have any prices on the site but they have contact information. You could check and see the prices and shipping costs.

My experience with this enzyme has been great. I'm still trying to tune in a good process for how to get consistant results from the grains with higher gelitinization points or harder to crack/mill (Purple Rice, Amaranth) but with roasted millet & buckwheat I got great results (even checked the conversion with iodine).

 

[EvanLouis]

Anyone know Deutch?

 

[EvanLouis]

A cereal mash is basically just boiling the grains to break down the structure. It's only used on adjunct grains because there's no worry about destroying the enzymes in those grains.

Adjunct meaning oats corn and rice correct?

 

[danz]

Looks like brewers supply group is the distributor of Promalt in the USA. I sent an email off to the Westcoast sales manager so will see what they say. Since its sold in sacks of 55lbs may take a few people to go in on it.

 

[danz]

Looks like BSG is out of the question, Beerzym Multi may be the only option.

 

[BrewCanuck]

EvanLouis,

I speak some, what do you need?

 

[EvanLouis]

Maybe someone can concoct their own enzyme compound.

 

[danz]

I have looked at trying to purchase the individual enzymes but been unsuccessful, looks like there are various digestive supplements with an array of enzymes including the ones needed but I am not sure of the effects of the additional enzymes this may have as well the quantity required would be costly.