English Strong Bitter - yeast alternative (closed ferment with dry hopping)

[Gadjobrinus]

Hi all,

Until I get an open fermentation system setup properly (I have a square - thanks to a member here - just not ready to implement it yet), I will continue to brew using sanke's, and transferring via CO2 transfer.

I have a yeast from a Yorkshire square brewery, employing regular rousings via pumping up and over, through a spreading fan.

Because I'll be fermenting in a sanke, I cannot rouse it as efficiently and would like to compare methods anyway. I typically ferment to a few points above FG, xfer, dry hop x 3 days, crash cool (with finings), and xfer to brite serving tank. I'll probably do that here - just getting beer to ourselves and friends, and will be moving to a more traditional approach as I get back in.

I always used WLP023 to great effect for all my bitters. I'll definitely be using the HH, the yeast I obtained from Brewlabs, but for now, I've been out of the game a really long time and suspect I'm out of the loop on a lot of choices. For a traditional, English strong bitter, any thoughts?

FWIW, here's the particulars on a First Gold-based strong bitter:

03-18-2018 Strong Bitter - 15 - first gold

A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------

Batch Size (Gal): 13.00 Wort Size (Gal): 13.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 27.62
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.33
Anticipated SRM: 15.2
Anticipated IBU: 42.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
85.1 23.50 lbs. Fawcett - Maris Otter England 1.037 3
1.8 0.50 lbs. Hugh Baird Crystal 135-160 Great Britain 1.033 150
6.3 1.75 lbs. Crystal 77 US 1.034 77
0.2 0.06 lbs. Chocolate Malt Great Britain 1.034 475
0.5 0.13 lbs. De-Bittered Black Belgium 1.010 550
6.1 1.69 lbs. Torrefied Wheat Great Britain 1.036 3

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.25 oz. Challenger Pellet 7.50 33.8 90 min.
2.00 oz. First Gold Pellet 7.50 5.5 10 min.
1.50 oz. First Gold Pellet 7.50 0.0 0 min.
1.50 oz. First Gold Pellet 7.50 0.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP023 Burton Ale

Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: ESB - moderate dextrin balanced w/ moderate crystal in grist

Total Grain Lbs: 27.62
Total Water Qts: 27.98 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 6.99 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 67 F


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mash in Temp 5 60 154 154 Infuse 171 27.98 1.01
Mashout 5 15 170 170 Infuse 210 13.40 1.50


Total Water Qts: 41.38 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 10.35 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal: 12.56 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
All infusion amounts are in Quarts.
All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.

 

[thehaze]

I like bitters in a lighter colour, so maybe you want an amber bitter?

But I would drop the Chocolate malt and Black malt. Keep the combination of Crystal malts. You can keep the Wheat, if you believe it will help with the head/foam formation, but I would also ditch that. If I were to use anything torrefied or flaked, it would be Falked/torrefied barley, which really does add a smoothness to beer ( style dependent ).

A base malt and 1 or 2 Crystal malts is enough to make a good bitter. I love the hops choice.

Ferment warm-ish to get some of those english esters in the beer, which are common to the style. I for one, love lots of esters in english beers.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks haze. Among my 3 bitters, this is the richest and darkest. At an estimated 15.2 SRM, it's not as dark as I've seen many strong bitters, and I actually enjoy a bitter in this hue and range. Goose Island's Honker's Ale uses roast barley to get in to darker territory, and I just don't like the taste; and so am minimally using the chocolate and de-bittered black to nudge it forward (with .2 and .5% of the grist, I don't expect a ton of flavor addition). I don't usually like to do this at all - preferring to lean heavily on the base malt, so I do hear you, and we'll see.

The wheat, right, is itself taken from the Black Sheep Brewer's own words, "we northerners like a bit of head retention" and I think they use close to 10% torr. wheat. Since I'm using the yeast, and am wanting to play in Yorkshire territory for the time being, I wanted to stay true to that as well. I love southern ales, too, and may bag that at some point as well - I never used it when brewing my "previous" time.

I hear you on the flaked barley. One version of what this recipe came from, an homage to my grandfather-in-law ("Edgar's Special Bitter" - Edgar just turned 99 this last week) had some flaked barley in it. I got more of what I called "fresh fields" character, actually a kind of pleasant "dry grassiness," v. a kind of oily smoothness I get with oatmeal. All good.

I love esters as well, and so don't shy from the warmer range. Esters are actually one of the reasons I love English ales so much.

Anyway, that's the reasoning. Appreciate the post! I've always loved the results from WLP023 and will probably just end up using it for the close fermentations (I have HH and will be actively rousing for open fermentations of this ale). Any thoughts for another yeast to try here?

Edit: My avatar - that was my "original" grandfather in law homage:

 

[thehaze]

Are the Crystal malts in Lovibond or EBC? I usually like to add a 120-150L ( 300-400 EBC ) Crystal malt to a bitter for higher colour, a bit of roast, although not much and complexity - usually burnt sugar, toffee and dark fruit flavours. But you're right on the dark malts: at 0.7% they will probably not temper with the flavours and only get the colour.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Are the Crystal malts in Lovibond or EBC? I usually like to add a 120-150L ( 300-400 EBC ) Crystal malt to a bitter for higher colour, a bit of roast, although not much and complexity - usually burnt sugar, toffee and dark fruit flavours. But you're right on the dark malts: at 0.7% they will probably not temper with the flavours and only get the colour.

They're in L. I like the upper ranges as well, for the same reasons as you. My lowest tends to be 77L English crystal, and I do seem to be a fan of the 135-165 from Baird's. I'm still playing with the recipe, thanks for your thoughts. You did get me thinking, and I cut the chocolate. Much like my distaste for Honker's, I'm recalling I've not really enjoyed playing with pure roast malts too much in bitters - an out of place contribution, for me. I now just have de-bittered at 0.3%, and the C77 is pulled down to 4.8%. I do like the color and contributions of these darker crystals so I'll probably keep things here and give it a shot. (We're at 12.8L, now. I might have been chasing Fuller's ESB, which I seem to recall as really high, 18L, or something like that? Bad recollection but some bitter I enjoy was up that high and brought me to say, what the hell, why not?).

I just looked up a 2004 ESB - 83.2% MO, 7.9% C80, 5.2% Munich 8L, 3.2% flaked barley, .5% chocolate 475L. I think, objectively good, but in that vein of mocha roastiness, and not a cleaner kind of maltiness, that I'm looking for per above. I think it's chocolate for me, and not so much black, for whatever reason.

Thanks again, appreciate your sharing.

 

[bierhaus15]

I have a batch of Riggwelter fermenting with the "HH" strain right now. It is a beast of a yeast and even with 6" of head space has made a mess of the airlock multiple times.

That said, for your recipe I would suggest a yeast that ferments moderately dry without heavy esters; lest you cover up that lovely First Gold character. WLP023 is a good choice, although I would suggest trying WY1335. It does not have the same sharp mineral character as the former, but can handle the higher gravity and lends a nice rounded mouthfeel with mild fruitiness. It will ferment dry, although I would mash closer to 150-152F. For harder to find yeasts, WLP006 and WLP022 would be great choices as well.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I have a batch of Riggwelter fermenting with the "HH" strain right now. It is a beast of a yeast and even with 6" of head space has made a mess of the airlock multiple times.

That said, for your recipe I would suggest a yeast that ferments moderately dry without heavy esters; lest you cover up that lovely First Gold character. WLP023 is a good choice, although I would suggest trying WY1335. It does not have the same sharp mineral character as the former, but can handle the higher gravity and lends a nice rounded mouthfeel with mild fruitiness. It will ferment dry, although I would mash closer to 150-152F. For harder to find yeasts, WLP006 and WLP022 would be great choices as well.

Excellent, thanks, Bierhaus. I'll look into them. Good too to know HH is as aggressive as that - thought it was a sleepy little tune that needed constant encouragement.

I've pulled the crystal back to a total of 7%. I have always sort of gone against the notion of mashing in inverse proportion to the OG and crystal, when dealing with bitters (I think it's a quote, maybe, from Jamil?). I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I don't mind both a somewhat dextrinous and higher residual sweetness beer in my ESB's, and don't mind a slightly thinner "quaffer" in my lower gravity bitters...in other words, will mash, let's say, a best bitter with significantly lower OG at 149-150, and a strong bitter at 153-154. I hop the lower gravity bitter more aggressively - this is where I'm seeking some "compensation." Does this touch on your mash temp comment? Does it make sense?

Very helpful, thanks a bunch.

BTW: Very cool on your doing the Riggwelter. Are you building that from the Black Sheep podcast? It's an awesome ale I haven't had in years, and really miss. I actually pulled a recipe together in PM drawn from that same podcast, and I know it will be early in the production chain coming up....

Edit 2: In investigating WLP006, came to this board, and your comments on the yeast. Great - now I'm seriously geeked to try it, and it's a vault yeast, lol! Can't wait to brew with it. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just realized - bierhaus, do you happen to know if WLP006 is supposedly the yeast from Charles Wells?

 

[ESBrewer]

Yes it is, supposedly. http://www.mrmalty.com/white-labs.php

There are a lot of good yeast alternatives for strong bitters available, especially in the wyeast catalogue. It depends on your taste so that is probably why people avoid giving you any suggestions. I would and will go with wyeast 1968 / wlp002 (Fuller's) and wyeast 1469 (T.Taylor). Going to try Whitbread yeasts, someday. As well as Young's strain and Gale's yeast (1768 and 1332, respectively) cause I know they can produce good bitters... But I will be avoiding Ringwood strain (wlp005 / wyeast 1187) in the fuure because of the diacetyl production that can be too high to my taste. Probably depends on how you handle it, though. I also avoid strains that are too neutral, there need to be some esters in my bitter, too.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yes it is, supposedly. http://www.mrmalty.com/white-labs.php

There are a lot of good yeast alternatives for strong bitters available, especially in the wyeast catalogue. It depends on your taste so people avoid giving you any suggestions. I would and will go with wyeast 1968 / wlp002 (Fuller's) and wyeast 1469 (T.Taylor). Going to try Whitbread yeasts, someday. As well as Young's strain and Gale's yeast (1768 and 1332, respectively)... But I will be avoiding Ringwood strain (wlp005 / wyeast 1187) because of the diacetyl production that can be too high to my taste. Probably depends on how you handle it.

Thanks ESBrewer, some good alternatives. I'm with you on Ringwood, way too much diacetyl for me too, though probably didn't stick with it long enough to see ways to better manage that and find what the yeast could do otherwise. I don't believe I've done a Whitbread either, though because the last time I brewed was so long ago, it's possible. Love Fuller's - my recollection is what I called a "brain mass" in a carboy, lol. Not yet tried the 1469, which I know, I need to do - thanks. Have used 1768 alot but again, it's from a long time ago, but I have a vague memory of enjoying it quite a bit.

I do have a sort of Fuller's cloning recipe with Challenger, Northdown and First Gold (maybe it was you?!!!) which I'd also like to try. I think I'll go with one 1968, one 1768, to compare.

Lots to go on. Really appreciate it, ESBrewer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

0.2 0.06 lbs. Chocolate Malt Great Britain 1.034 475
0.5 0.13 lbs. De-Bittered Black Belgium 1.010 550
6.1 1.69 lbs. Torrefied Wheat Great Britain 1.036 3

am minimally using the chocolate and de-bittered black to nudge it....

Really you should be using caramel to adjust colour on northern beers, but we'll let you off...

The wheat, right, is itself taken from the Black Sheep Brewer's own words, "we northerners like a bit of head retention" and I think they use close to 10% torr. wheat.

Too bloody right, lad - none of that southern nonsense of serving without sparklers here! But yep, 6% is about right.

Because I'll be fermenting in a sanke, I cannot rouse it as efficiently and would like to compare methods anyway.

I love esters as well, and so don't shy from the warmer range. Esters are actually one of the reasons I love English ales so much.

If you're wanting to compare methods, then surely you want to keep the yeast the same? So just use HH, I'm not quite sure why you're complicating things? Yeast get used in the wrong shape container all the time. Even the likes of Ringwood probably spent some of its youth in a square before making the journey south.

If not then 1469 is an obvious choice for things Yorkshire. The others that have been mentioned are all sound choices - it's true that Wyeast generally has the better year-round selection but most of the ones I really want are WL Vault strains! 006 is due as a seasonal in November if it doesn't get a Vault release first, 033 (=1768) is due in May. 076 from New Albion is out at the moment and is a close relative of Whitbread II if you fancied giving it a go on the grounds that it's probably a while until it is seen again and will probably be somewhere in the right area.

Slightly more leftfield (but shouldn't be) would be a Conan - everyone thinks of it for NEIPAs but obviously it came from Britain originally, and has no shortage of esters for you. More leftfield would be Mangrove Jack M15 Empire - which many US brewers seem to have a bit of a downer on, but that's because they keep trying to put it in 10% imperial stouts and get upset when it craps out. It's very much a yeast in the British tradition with big esters - I've got some in the fridge but not tried it yet, I hope to confirm that it's one of these northern English saison strains that are very typical of Yorkshire brewing.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Really you should be using caramel to adjust colour on northern beers, but we'll let you off...

Hahah - yeah, OK. I'm at 7.3% now, and was leery of taking it up to approaching 10% or so (I think 9% of this mix of crystals gets me there). Never worried before but I see in the modern tongue a certain reluctance to go past even 5% crystal. Is this a regional thing, or a modern thing, neither, both?

Too bloody right, lad - none of that southern nonsense of serving without sparklers here! But yep, 6% is about right.

Cool. Bring on the foamstand (currently at 5.5% torr. wheat).

If you're wanting to compare methods, then surely you want to keep the yeast the same? So just use HH, I'm not quite sure why you're complicating things? Yeast get used in the wrong shape container all the time. Even the likes of Ringwood probably spent some of its youth in a square before making the journey south.

Absolutely right, and thank you for raising it. Makes little sense to jump around off the HH without first exploring this yeast in all kinds of conditions. Just re-slanted the HH and will use that for the time being. Though I do miss the "brain mass" 1968 and kin, so I'm sure they're going to be bubbling and happy in the future.

If not then 1469 is an obvious choice for things Yorkshire. The others that have been mentioned are all sound choices - it's true that Wyeast generally has the better year-round selection but most of the ones I really want are WL Vault strains! 006 is due as a seasonal in November if it doesn't get a Vault release first, 033 (=1768) is due in May. 076 from New Albion is out at the moment and is a close relative of Whitbread II if you fancied giving it a go on the grounds that it's probably a while until it is seen again and will probably be somewhere in the right area.

Have banked 1469 as well. It would be nice to do a side by side of the HH and 1469. Thanks on the notes on the other. I saw a Wyeast Whitbread at the LHBS yesterday and thought to get it (can't remember the number) but will look into the New Albion.

Just to confirm - 006 is Wells, as in Wells Bombardier, correct>

Slightly more leftfield (but shouldn't be) would be a Conan - everyone thinks of it for NEIPAs but obviously it came from Britain originally, and has no shortage of esters for you. More leftfield would be Mangrove Jack M15 Empire - which many US brewers seem to have a bit of a downer on, but that's because they keep trying to put it in 10% imperial stouts and get upset when it craps out. It's very much a yeast in the British tradition with big esters - I've got some in the fridge but not tried it yet, I hope to confirm that it's one of these northern English saison strains that are very typical of Yorkshire brewing.

Unfamiliar with these though I know I should probably know them. This notion of Yorkshire saison strains is so interesting to me - paying attention on this. As I mentioned, I actually found the HH very clean, surprisingly so, to me. It was just one test run so it means nothing; will look forward to more runs and full batches to see if it is POF+ or not, at least by the palate I have.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Never worried before but I see in the modern tongue a certain reluctance to go past even 5% crystal. Is this a regional thing, or a modern thing, neither, both?

It's complex. There's definitely a regional element - obviously Boddies in Manchester has none, and northern beers tend to have less, whereas you get peak crystal in the middle of the Thames Valley with the likes of Hobgoblin etc which aren't my thing at all. Definitely a bit of a modern trend towards pale and dry which is part of it, and I have a vague feeling there's a trend towards less but higher-colour crystal.

Then there seems to be the separate thing that US brewers have always interpreted British beers with more crystal, whether because they're using higher-attenuating yeast strains, allowing for inferior crystals being available to them historically, or they've only had under-conditioned cask in London and think that cask ale is meant to taste of priming sugar...

Have banked 1469 as well. It would be nice to do a side by side of the HH and 1469. Thanks on the notes on the other. I saw a Wyeast Whitbread at the LHBS yesterday and thought to get it (can't remember the number) but will look into the New Albion.

Either 1098 Whitbread B (ie same origins as S-04/WLP007) or 1099 "Whitbread" which noone seems to be completely sure if it's the same as WLP017 Whitbread II or not.

Just to confirm - 006 is Wells, as in Wells Bombardier, correct>

Mr Malty says 006 is Charles Wells, so yes that would be as in Bombardier. Although Wells recently sold their beer brands to Marston, and are building a microbrewery just to serve their pub estate. The yeast is related to WLP013 and Ringwood, but I've not used it.

Unfamiliar with these though I know I should probably know them. This notion of Yorkshire saison strains is so interesting to me - paying attention on this. As I mentioned, I actually found the HH very clean, surprisingly so, to me. It was just one test run so it means nothing; will look forward to more runs and full batches to see if it is POF+ or not, at least by the palate I have.

I still haven't got round to playing with them yet, but I'm fascinated too, I just need to finish off a few things with my not-Chicos first (had a slight labelling problem involving me grabbing the nearest marker which turned out to be non-permanent, which was OK because I knew I could be careful moving things. Then they got moved by someone who didn't know about the marker....). You would expect them to have evolved in a less POF-y direction over the years, but as I say Wiper & True made a well-thought-of saison with 037 run hot.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Wow, thanks for the information, Northern. I'm going to 7.3% on my ESB but unfortunately have lost over the years all but a few of my "historical" recipes, which bums me as I'd love to see what I was thinking in light of some of your observations. I hear you on the Hobgoblin, though I recall enjoying it for what it was at the time. I wasn't aware that's a kind of regional tendency, which is fascinating to learn. Makes me revisit my strong bitter above, 7.3% between 77L (5.5%) and 135-165L (1.8%). On the other hand, something that's also perplexed me is when I see a reported color in Protz or others, is that I can't see how to get there by the intimated or stated grist. I would like this "ESB" to be in 13.5 or so SRM territory, and found I needed at least some black malt to do so, if I didn't want to get higher on the crystal (which I don't). I also wonder how many brewers seem to get a certain color when using only American 2-row and something like Briess C40. Boil caramelization aside, doesn't make sense to me.

Fascinated to read that 006 and Ringwood share some lineage. I have such a shudder factor whenever thinking of ringwood, but I need to get over that and try again; seeing if I can manage the diacetyl while getting some nice compounds in the finished beer.

Thank you for opening this part of the brewing world to me, Northern. Have just started a prop from one of my HH slants and will be monitoring it again this time for any POF notes. Oh - sorry, I saw your mention elsewhere and I know it's a dumb question - but what is Conan yeast?

 

[MSK_Chess]

I brew'd WLP028 Edinburgh as low as 13C (55F) , produced a super clean ale flavour, not as bland as WLP001 but cleaner than WLP002 for sure.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I wouldn't sweat the colour thing too much - AIUI it's something that the calculators aren't very good at, and on a commercial scale you have the effects of boil-darkening and the use of caramel which is a bit like a chef recording how much salt he uses - it's a small amount and it depends on the batch how much is used.

Don't get too hung up on relationships when it comes to brewing phenotype - a brother and sister are highly related, but thanks to differences in a tiny fraction of the genome, they come out looking very different!

Conan is the defining yeast of the first generation of New England IPAs. Greg Noonan brought it from the UK in the 1980s, before opening the Vermont Pub & Brewery in November 1988. He christened the yeast VPB-1188 but it was soon nicknamed Conan as it was such a thug. John Kimmich worked at the VPB and obtained the yeast when he set up the Alchemist, and it really came to fame as the yeast of Heady Topper after which everyone wanted it. It's famous for a dominant peach note, most obvious in the Yeast Bay version WLP4000, whereas the White Labs WLP095 version is more subdued. It does have a reputation as a bit of a prima donna though, one reason that 1318 is now becoming the favoured yeast for NEIPAs is that it's rather more forgiving on a homebrew scale.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Good counsel as always, Northern. Creeping a bit forward as opposed to my younger self (all tornados and vast grabs at perfectionism), so it's well taken. And very interesting info on Conan and related. I tend to be a sucker for these kinds of notes in certain beers (strong bitters, for one - along with "mandarine marmalade"), so it would be fun to try out. In fact, my first gold strong bitter is a very simple recipe and gives several brews ahead with different yeasts to try, so doubly, thanks.

 

[z-bob]

You're way beyond me, so this might not be worth much I've been experimenting with S-33 yeast in British styles, and I really like it. But it's a little hard to work with; tends to ferment furiously for a couple of days and then stall. So that's when I transfer it to a secondary and raise the temperature, and it seems to finish. Just rousting it might work, I don't know.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You're way beyond me, so this might not be worth much I've been experimenting with S-33 yeast in British styles, and I really like it. But it's a little hard to work with; tends to ferment furiously for a couple of days and then stall. So that's when I transfer it to a secondary and raise the temperature, and it seems to finish. Just rousting it might work, I don't know.

S-33 is generally thought to be the old EDME yeast, which is one of the old faithfuls of the British homebrew scene. The English Diastatic Malt Extract Company started off making malt extract, and in the 1970s/80s were one of the biggest names in UK homebrew supplies, but they're now effectively the non-brewing division of Crisp Malting and their homebrew division seems to have been sold to Munton's at some point. So the Munton's "ordinary" yeast seems to be the same strain as well; the fact that they tend to recomend the ordinary for sugar-rich worts and their premium yeast for more malty worts suggests that the ordinary one (and hence presumably S-33) struggles with complex sugars. Aside from that, it's meant to be not a bad yeast, quite good taste but just a bit slow and doesn't drop that well.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Mr Malty says 006 is Charles Wells, so yes that would be as in Bombardier. Although Wells recently sold their beer brands to Marston, and are building a microbrewery just to serve their pub estate. The yeast is related to WLP013 and Ringwood, but I've not used it.

While dad had to stay home nursing gall stones, my family went to Chicago and of all things brought back some Bombardier. I know it's nothing like home, but I still can't wait. Fuller's ESB and London Pride as well. I feel rich.

 

[z-bob]

S-33 is generally thought to be the old EDME yeast, which is one of the old faithfuls of the British homebrew scene. The English Diastatic Malt Extract Company started off making malt extract, and in the 1970s/80s were one of the biggest names in UK homebrew supplies, but they're now effectively the non-brewing division of Crisp Malting and their homebrew division seems to have been sold to Munton's at some point. So the Munton's "ordinary" yeast seems to be the same strain as well; the fact that they tend to recomend the ordinary for sugar-rich worts and their premium yeast for more malty worts suggests that the ordinary one (and hence presumably S-33) struggles with complex sugars. Aside from that, it's meant to be not a bad yeast, quite good taste but just a bit slow and doesn't drop that well.

I still have a packet of the old EDME yeast in my fridge from about 20 years ago. I don't have the heart to throw it out because it might be the last packet yet. It should still be alive. (barely)

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just to say, Northern and for the general benefit: I'm propagating up HH for a strong bitter brew and damn me if it isn't unmistakably Belgian in character. I don't know how I missed it in a previous, small-step trial. But now that I'm moving up to greater volume (and more steps, don't know), the aroma is unmistakable.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I still have a packet of the old EDME yeast in my fridge from about 20 years ago. I don't have the heart to throw it out because it might be the last packet yet. It should still be alive. (barely)

Yep, it's probably alive if it's been kept in the fridge, albeit pretty geriatric. And even if one can't revive it, one could get DNA out of it to compare to S-33....

On HH - heh, it's funny how sometimes your nose can be "guided" by your brain! Good to hear though, it's just another data point in this Yorkshire saison thing. Now you just have to try fermenting some hot!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, I guess HH is a, er, um, top cropper. I'm trying to figure out how to pour off the starter wort and maintain a good strong yeast cake for pitching, on crash cooling. This is 10L, the final propagation step which I'll let roll through tonight or tomorrow morning, then crash cool for 24-36 hours (weather is crap Saturday for brewing outdoors).

Northern, anyone used to working with this kind of "top cropper," if you don't want to use the starter wort itself, how do you deal with it - was crash cooling sufficient to bring the yeast down, to the bottom,. as a more or less tight cake, so you could poor off the wort (beer)?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Crap. I realized after seeing the nature of this yeast there's no way I was going to get it out of the carboy, so I pitched it into my 10 gallon square:

But very soon after the transfer, rather than rocking along like this, the entire mass collapsed. I've roused it a couple times, but I think it's done. I intended on brewing tomorrow but now I'm stuck. I just smacked some 1469 and it would be a 2-step prop, but as this was my first effort with HH, I was really hoping to use that. The weird thing is that now, every time I rouse (vigorously), I get what looks like a very clean, white mass of - is it yeast, or just beer head? - on top. But then it collapses within an hour or two.

Unsure what to do. Rouse and skim tomorrow? Transfer to a carboy and crash cool? Dump, start over (I already milled the grist)?

Nonplussed, could use some help, particularly from those experienced in top cropping this strain (know its nature). Thanks.

 

[ba-brewer]

Well, I guess HH is a, er, um, top cropper. I'm trying to figure out how to pour off the starter wort and maintain a good strong yeast cake for pitching, on crash cooling. This is 10L, the final propagation step which I'll let roll through tonight or tomorrow morning, then crash cool for 24-36 hours (weather is crap Saturday for brewing outdoors).

View attachment 564115

Northern, anyone used to working with this kind of "top cropper," if you don't want to use the starter wort itself, how do you deal with it - was crash cooling sufficient to bring the yeast down, to the bottom,. as a more or less tight cake, so you could poor off the wort (beer)?

Just curious how much beer you plan to make with a 10L starter?

At 10L I think I would of just made a couple gallon or even 5gals of actual drinkable beer and pitch the resulting cake.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just curious how much beer you plan to make with a 10L starter?

At 10L I think I would of just made a couple gallon or even 5gals of actual drinkable beer and pitch the resulting cake.

It will be about 11.5 gallons, 43.5K mls, so the 10L step gives me this 4.3X jump. The other thing I've learned about this beer is that it's a crazy top cropper! I don't think I can do my usual thing, to finalize by crash cooling - it absolutely refused to leave the carboy, like a stiff meringue, and I don't know but suspect it's not ideal to decant off and draw from the bottom. So right now, I'm pitching 2L into a square, open fermentor, I'll toss 8 L here (total 10), and skim as if it were the main fermentation. We'll see!