English Lager?

[McMullan]

What's an English Lager? That's a genuine question. As an ale drinker, I really don't know. All I can think of is Carling Black Label, which is crap. The adverts were much better than the beer.



I found Adams' Kobold English Lager whilst searching online. I've no idea what it's like, but the marketing recons...

This refreshing lager is a perfect blend of English ingredients and uses East Anglian extra pale malted barley and wheat, with Goldings hops from Hertfordshire and Kent.

No problem, I've got half a sack of Warminster Floor Malted Low Colour Maris Otter, about 3kg Goldings (Cobb) hops and some Diamond Lager yeast to use up.

English Lager #1 KISS

Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.1 %
Bitterness: 32.0 IBUs
Est Color: 4.4

Half batch

LC MO 93%
Flaked Maize 7%

Mash: 75min @ 68°C, 15min @ 72°C, 15min @ 77°C.

Boil 90min

Goldings: 15g @ 90min, 15g @ 60min, 6g @ 15min and 15g steeped at 80°C for 20min.

12L (OG 1.051) into 19L corny keg. Sprinkled 1pk Diamond Lager yeast onto wort @ 12°C.

Day 2 (36h) spunding up to 10psi.

Edit: That's interesting, according to Adnams' head brewer, they use their ale strain at lower temperature to ferment their Kobold Lager.

 

[FunkedOut]

Interesting. Keep us posted.
What made you go with the corn?

 

[Miraculix]

About thirty ibus, pale grist, around 5%abv, well executed, quite impossible to go wrong with this combination!

 

[McMullan]

Interesting. Keep us posted.
What made you go with the corn?

Not sure, tbh. I use it in some English ale recipes, so had it in stock. I read somewhere it can be used in lager recipes so thought I'd throw some in there.

 

[McMullan]

About thirty ibus, pale grist, around 5%abv, well executed, quite impossible to go wrong with this combination!

 

[DBhomebrew]

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=01358...ayperkins.blogspot.com/?m=1&ss=2029j1330731j5

 

[Hanglow]

Most lagers from traditional UK breweries are a bit crap unfortunately. I'm pretty sure Fullers frontier is another one that uses their own yeast at lower temperatures. It's rather poor. Not tried the Adams one

Korev is pretty solid though from St austel. It has maize in it too. Keep us updated on how it turns out

 

[cire]

Above is a typical sixties attempt at lager. The mash and boil are the same as for a pale ale, but fermented with yeast from the Red Tower Brewery, then a long-established brewer of lager. Hop 28 was listed as "Styrians", supplied by a British Hop Merchant.

So, just 14 Qtrs Muntons Pale Malt and 3 Qtrs of Flaked Rice with 50 lbs of Styrian Goldings. That's about 9 gm of hops per kg of grist, all at the start of the boil. OG 1037 fermented at 57F/14C.

Many brewers at that time used their normal ale yeast, but this one didn't.

 

[bwible]

Well Carling is made in Canada.

This is interesting because we just had somebody from our club sending out emails about this. Fullers in particular using their ale yeast at low temps to make lager. And they said it was “hoppy lager” and they were throwing out the word “craft”. If it’s “craft” that means its hoppy, I guess.

I had never heard of English lager either, but I’m in America. And I never heard of “craft” “hoppy” lager anywhere in the world. Somebody needs to tell Gordon Strong or whoever is in charge of updating BJCP guidelines now I guess.

[edit] Everybody knows Harp lager. But that’s Irish and its not “craft” or “hoppy”

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Marris Otter doesn't belong in a lager if you want my opinion.

 

[McMullan]

Well Carling is made in Canada.

This is interesting because we just had somebody from our club sending out emails about this. Fullers in particular using their ale yeast at low temps to make lager. And they said it was “hoppy lager” and they were throwing out the word “craft”. If it’s “craft” that means its hoppy, I guess.

I had never heard of English lager either, but I’m in America. And I never heard of “craft” “hoppy” lager anywhere in the world. Somebody needs to tell Gordon Strong or whoever is in charge of updating BJCP guidelines now I guess.

[edit] Everybody knows Harp lager. But that’s Irish and its not “craft” or “hoppy”

Just goes to show what I know about English Lager. I suspect some of the crafty ones are just variations on Summer Lightning, the English Golden Ale.

 

[McMullan]

Marris Otter doesn't belong in a lager if you want my opinion.

I have no idea, never tried it before. At least I'll get the t-shirt. I'm interested how it turns out, using English malt and hops with a genuine lager yeast. We'll see. I'm guessing it's going to be drinkable, but not as good as pilsner malt and noble hops.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I could see Golden Promise or something like Optic being very nice in a lager. Not nearly as bready/nutty as MO, still more English-y flavorful than generic 2-row.

 

[bwible]

The numbers for your posted recipe line up pretty close with Pre-Prohibition lager. Different ingredients but real similar numbers.

One thing I would suggest is a lower mash temp if you’re going for a lager with Maris Otter. 68C = 154F. I’d be looking more toward 63-64C= 145-148F. You want more fermentable wort for a lager.

Anyhow, please do let us know how this goes.

Thanks.

 

[bwible]

From a brewery standpoint, it doesn’t make sense. They ferment lagers with a different yeast that likes to work cold. It requires more equipment, more cost in refrigeration, longer time to ferment and tanks tied up longer. The reason they do it is to produce the cleanest beer possible. With no esters, no diacetyl, no dms, no off flavors, etc.

So if we’re going to do all that extra work and go to all the extra cost and time, then why would we just go and cover all that up with a bunch of hops? If we’re going to do that, then why not just use ale yeast - less cost, less time, get the beer out faster? Since we don’t need the cleanest beer possible. I guess thats why all the hoppy beers have been ales to this point.

 

[Hanglow]

Carling is indeed Canadian but it is the biggest selling commodity lager in England and brewed there at a couple of places or at least was a few years ago. Also gained notoriety as it was marketed at 4% but they only made it to 3.7% to save tax. It's a typical high gravity, warm ferment, low hopped "lager" lagered for a day and made with green malt and maltose syrup among other things.

As for making a proper English Lager, I don't see why not. English malts and hops and proper lagering and yeast and Bob's your mothers brother.

 

[schmurf]

I do use Simpsons lager malt sometimes, but English lager isn't anything I know much about. Isn't Tennants English?

 

[cire]

I do use Simpsons lager malt sometimes, but English lager isn't anything I know much about. Isn't Tennants English?

Scottish.

 

[kevin58]

Check out Ron Pattinson's blog, Shut Up About Barclay Perkins. He has done quite a bit of research on British lager. A search of his site turned up these articles... Shut up about Barclay Perkins
And the book... Lulu

Along with many articles Ron has also lifted some recipes from the old brewing logs...
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2018/04/lets-brew-1930-barclay-perkins-dark.htmlhttps://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2020/06/lets-brew-1939-barclay-perkins-dark.htmlhttps://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2020/06/lets-brew-wednesday-1940-whitbread.htmlhttps://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2018/07/lets-brew-wednesday-1954-barclay.html

 

[Onthebrew]

Marris Otter doesn't belong in a lager if you want my opinion.

its supposed to work well, but what you will get is something maybe a bit closer to a Vienna lager.

 

[McMullan]

its supposed to work well, but what you will get is something maybe a bit closer to a Vienna lager.

I'm sure they sell a Vienna style lager in the local shop. I've got a good reason to buy one now.

 

[Onthebrew]

It would be my favourite lager type, I’d say.

 

[Joe P]

Pennsylvania here, Yeuingling brewery, America's oldest brewery still brews a Lager & it's a top seller. The taste (to me) is what a Lager should taste like. I found a recipe after reading several articles about the brewery and pieced it together. Haven't tasted it yet as its still carbonating. Ill definetly give a heads up when i finally taste it. Meanwhile, if you never had a Yeuingling brew check them out, it's really decent tasting. Just saying

 

[Yesfan]

I love reading about these old beers and beer history in general. The link to the 1930s dark lager shows a fermentation temp of 48F! That seems like it may be too low for a lot of yeast strains. Is this one reason why you would want to mash in at a lower temp and/or use a particular base malt? How long would it take a lager to ferment at 48F?

@Misplaced_Canuck Why no MO in a lager?

@Joe P Agreed. I'm in TN, and I love Yuengling's amber lager. Great testing beer. One of the local restaurants keeps it on draft.

I really need to get that vintage beers book.........

 

[patto1ro]

View attachment 765320

Above is a typical sixties attempt at lager. The mash and boil are the same as for a pale ale, but fermented with yeast from the Red Tower Brewery, then a long-established brewer of lager. Hop 28 was listed as "Styrians", supplied by a British Hop Merchant.

So, just 14 Qtrs Muntons Pale Malt and 3 Qtrs of Flaked Rice with 50 lbs of Styrian Goldings. That's about 9 gm of hops per kg of grist, all at the start of the boil. OG 1037 fermented at 57F/14C.

Many brewers at that time used their normal ale yeast, but this one didn't.

Which brewery is that from?

 

[cire]

J Nimmo and Son at Castle Eden, Ron. Whitbread passed to Durham County Archives those from '42 to probably when the beers were rebranded as Whitbread Trophy and the rest. That lager was brewed when they were independent.

I thought you were in Brazil.

 

[McMullan]

I love reading about these old beers and beer history in general. The link to the 1930s dark lager shows a fermentation temp of 48F! That seems like it may be too low for a lot of yeast strains. Is this one reason why you would want to mash in at a lower temp and/or use a particular base malt? How long would it take a lager to ferment at 48F?

@Misplaced_Canuck Why no MO in a lager?

@Joe P Agreed. I'm in TN, and I love Yuengling's amber lager. Great testing beer. One of the local restaurants keeps it on draft.

I really need to get that vintage beers book.........

Interesting idea, low mash temps for lower fermentation temps. 48°F does seem to be at the low end of the range, but not too low, for some lager yeasts. The lager yeast's enzymes have evolved to function efficiently at lower temps. I need to try a really cool fermentation at some point. Probably with WLP833, which I quite like.

its supposed to work well, but what you will get is something maybe a bit closer to a Vienna lager.

I can see what you mean here.

This beer’s definitely on the malt side. I use Vienna malt as a sub for mild malt and I’m getting lots of that here. Almost reminds me of milling grains. Quite pleasant. A little sweetness to prop the maltiness. Relatively low carbonation for a lager, in my limited experience of lagers, but that seems to be a good thing here. Higher carbonation levels seem to compliment spicy pilsners. Interesting, I‘ll have to try a few more imported Vienna lagers. I’m not sure how authentic this one is, but Aass are by far the best quality ‘big’ brewery in Norway.

 

[Yesfan]

^ Looks very tasty!

 

[Joe P]

I got sort of malted out and Vienna Lager would taste very good now. Never heard of AAss Brewery but ill look for it. Between my Porters, Czech Darks & Honey Ales I need a crisper pallet tangy brew. I was thinking about having a Fosters. Why I don't know. If, I can actually find it here in Pa. They might know Foster Grant sunglasses or Foster Brooks comedian but I'm not sure abour Fosters Beer. The adventure begins, later...I'm going in!

 

[patto1ro]

J Nimmo and Son at Castle Eden, Ron. Whitbread passed to Durham County Archives those from '42 to probably when the beers were rebranded as Whitbread Trophy and the rest. That lager was brewed when they were independent.

I thought you were in Brazil.

Interesting. You don't have any more photos from Nimmo do you?

I've been back from Brazil for a while., And been to Columbia since.