English Barleywine Woes

[Joker_on_Jack]

I entered my first brewing competition this year at the MN state fare. Among my entries was a barley wine I brewed a couple years ago to what I thought was dead on style guidelines:

1.100 OG
1.022 FG
50 IBU
90min boil
Mash 152F single infusion

98% Maris Otter
2% Caramel
100% East Kent Golding
WLP007

I hit this brew on all my targets right on the head, I was pretty proud of it. After 2 years I had 6 bottles left, and I thought it aged really well.

Well, I just got the score sheets back and I guess they did not like it at all. Particularly I got really bad marks on style match, leaving me really confused. I got a lot of notes that they got overwhelming anise flavor. The only thing that I can think of is that they didn't realize that it was bottle conditioned and got a bunch of WLP007 mixed in (one note stated particulate, even though it went through 3 fermentors of careful racking).

I know no one can taste this over the interwebs, but I was wondering if anyone had any insight here. Also, if anyone lives in the NE Minneapolis area and knows a bit about judging barleywines I would happily crack a bottle with them to get some feedback.

 

[jekeane]

So here's the thing unless you enter the same beer 3 to 6 times there's a good chance you won't get a true reflection of what that beer score should be.

While there are clear guidelines for most styles how judges interpret and perceive the flavor is within those guidelines varies significantly. On top of that How entries are handled, presented, or even the order in which the beer is judged can drastically affect a beer score.

I have had beers go from a gold in one competition to not scoring well in the next. In a perfect world all judges would be created equal and perceive the same things. Unfortunately this isn't close to a perfect world.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I think I always knew that was the answer. The hard part for me was that this barleywine was what I considered my one of my best beers. Then the amber I threw together at the last minute to get into the competition got a ribbon. I guess, its just luck of the draw some times. I am still curious how anise could have come through on these ingredients. But maybe your right and it was the beer before me.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Trying to delete post... Nothing constructive here.

 

[dmtaylor]

The world may never know.

I agree 1000% with everything jekeane said.

Competitions are a complete crapshoot. If you get a snooty high ranking judge, any other people who judge with him/her will tend to spout the same stuff even if it's not accurate.

I'm Certified myself. I love to judge but I hate entering competitions for these very reasons. Way too much of a crapshoot, and there's way too many bad judges and pretentious judges and many who possess both bad quality and pretentiousness. Myself excluded of course.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

Trying to delete post... Nothing constructive here.

I asked about the legitimacy of my barkeywine recipe and if anything in it could come off as anise. Both of those things are the title of the forum... Why the negativity?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I asked about the legitimacy of my barkeywine recipe and if anything in it could come off as anise. Both of those things are the title of the forum... Why the negativity?

It was just a schoolyard pun which I though better of shortly after I posted. I've never entered a competition so I thought I didn't have anything constructive to add; I didn't mean to imply that your post wasn't interesting or valid.

I would think raisin or toffee flavors would be more typical for a barley wine and am curious what might have been the source of unintended licorice flavor. Do you taste any hint of licorice? Is it at all sweet? Sweetness should be within the style guidelines too, but some people just don't care for it in a beer.

 

[JKaranka]

I entered my first brewing competition this year at the MN state fare. Among my entries was a barley wine I brewed a couple years ago to what I thought was dead on style guidelines:

1.100 OG
1.022 FG
50 IBU
90min boil
Mash 152F single infusion

98% Maris Otter
2% Caramel
100% East Kent Golding
WLP007

The recipe seems perfectly fine, maybe something about the batch itself?

For a standard British barley wine I'd expect something fairly simple as you've got, possibly lighter in malt character (some flaked maize or invert sugar). Most examples are a bit lower OG (1.080-1.090) as taxes rock up so quickly as you increase ABV over here. Colour varies a lot, several being pale / golden (like Gold Label), and some being dark brown (like Old Tom). Nothing complicated: not sweet, decent bitterness, not much hop flavour, warming undisguised alcohol notes, etc.

I would assume most judges in the USA have never had one anyway? Not easy to source in the UK either!

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

No worries on the post MrFancyPants

I am going to crack one of my remaining four open tonight and get some current tasting notes. I will report back.

Half the reason for my angst here is that I have 44 bottles of a second batch 4 months into bottle conditioning. Same recipe but I aged them on Havana Club French oak medium roast cubes. Again, last check in with that batch didn't have any anise in it.

 

[JKaranka]

Just to explain a bit about the strength / tax relationship.

For a hectolitre of beer, the tax the brewer pays for different strengths is around:
2.8% - £23
3.8% - £70
5.0% - £90
7.5% - £138
8.0% - £190
10.0% - £238

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

Tasting notes:

Poured clean deep brown with no particulate.

Smelled toffee and caramel with some hints on dark fruits.

Tasted a bit one note of caramel and toffee with a bit of alcohol astringency at the end (it must have gotten a bit low on the final gravity).

No anise found... I'm happy with my brew.

 

[kempshark]

Just out of curiousity, what was the Carmel malt you used?

 

[TAK]

I wonder if it's from miallard reactions. I did one English barley wine, and had something similar. I wouldn't have called it anise / black licorice, a bit more like amaretto, maybe. But definitely a poinent flavor I haven't seen before. I believe mine came from an aggressive boil, I've since dialed back my boil-off rate in general. I think I had a long boil, like 150 minutes or something. Your 90 minute boil isn't a particularly long boil, but if the boil-off rate was high, maybe that has something to do with it.

I'm curious, what maltster did your MO come from? I think I used Warminster floor malted MO.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I was using Briess Organic-C 120L and Crisp Maris Otter. My boils do tend to be pretty violent and I usually end up with a rate of 1.25 gal/hour loss rate. I do almost get some amaretto from this brew.