Electrical Fire! Help!

[whoaru99]

I don't think there is any problem with them from a voltage perspective. The problem, IMO, is current. Look at the beef in a 50A range plug and receptacle then look at a Switchcraft version of speakON also apparently rated rated 50A. Either someone is sandbagging or someone is stretching things.

In pro audio a common speaker load is 4 ohms. Any idea how much power there is if you had 50A into a 4 ohm load? That's 10,000 watts. There are a few, but not many 10kW audio power amps. Thing is though, with actual music, an audio power amp rated 10kW will only be putting out about 1250 watts on average/continuous if it was running right up to the verge of clipping. 1250W at 4 ohms is 18 amps. 18 amps I can buy based on the size of the plug and contacts.

 

[smittygouv30]

Smittygouv,

Don't be discouraged; I'm already doing exactly what you're doing (Switch Craft connectors for everything); with 10/4 wire between the spa panel and the control panel and 10/3 to the elements you should be fine. -I doubt that they'll come off -the pressure is actually holding the spade connectors on; when they bend could two of the spades actually touch? -I definitely think it's possible, hence shrink wrap or liquid electrical tape; now that i think about it I'll have to actually disconnect every single spade connector to even liquid tape them so I might as well just shrink wrap them....

The liquid electrical tape is sold at any of the big box home stores in the electrical section and is in a jar that looks like rubber cement; it's goes on as a liquid with a brush that's attached to the lid and is non-conductive when it dries so you just sort of "paint" this goop around whatever it is your trying to insulate. I guess for this application shrink wrap might be better. (Definitely less messy)

Adam
Adam

Hey Adam,

Thanks for the reply. I too will be disconnecting every spade connector and using both solder and shrink tubing just to be safe. I don't feel as uncomfortable with the spade terminals on the male end of the plugs, as the 10/4 wire and the compression adapter is REALLY tight. I can't imagine those terminals moving at all let alone having enough wiggle room to pull out far enough and touch another. Now, the female end is a completely different story (as seen in the picture I posted). I even tried to aggressively crimp them on so they wouldn't move but still they can wiggle up and down pretty freely. Like I said they pass the "light tug test" but I still feel some vibrations would be enough to set one of them free and all hell would break lose. Those screw on ends like neutrik would be fantastic and make life much nicer.


Corey

 

[tyfernandez]

So I decided to email Neutrik and see if they would enlighten me the the actual difference between the SpeakON connectors and the PowerCON connectors. And as to why the the SpeakON should not be used as AC mains.

Here is what I got back

"speakON has never been UL recognized for power applications. (Indeed, we have never submitted speakON for power, since we have powerCON.) Any applications that use speakON for power could never be U.L. listed.

One other note about powerCON TRUE1’s rating of 20A in the U.S. and only 16A in Europe. Yes, this is confusing! The difference arises from the fact that there is no 20A certification standard in Europe. In Europe, a power connector can be certified to 16A or to higher amperages (like 32A) which powerCON TRUE1 does not support. By contrast, UL does have a 20A certification standard. That’s why powerCON TRUE1 can be legally certified to 20A in the U.S. but only 16A in the rest of the world."​

Interesting that it's not that speakON was deemed unusable, but rather that it was never submitted. With the reasoning being that they have other products to fill the need.

 

[whoaru99]

duplicate

 

[whoaru99]

So I decided to email Neutrik and see if they would enlighten me the the actual difference between the SpeakON connectors and the PowerCON connectors. And as to why the the SpeakON should not be used as AC mains.

Here is what I got back

"speakON has never been UL recognized for power applications. (Indeed, we have never submitted speakON for power, since we have powerCON.) Any applications that use speakON for power could never be U.L. listed.

One other note about powerCON TRUE1’s rating of 20A in the U.S. and only 16A in Europe. Yes, this is confusing! The difference arises from the fact that there is no 20A certification standard in Europe. In Europe, a power connector can be certified to 16A or to higher amperages (like 32A) which powerCON TRUE1 does not support. By contrast, UL does have a 20A certification standard. That’s why powerCON TRUE1 can be legally certified to 20A in the U.S. but only 16A in the rest of the world."​

Interesting that it's not that speakON was deemed unusable, but rather that it was never submitted. With the reasoning being that they have other products to fill the need.

They had speakON way before powerCON afaik. If speakON was suitable why would they develop another product?

Maybe someone with a strong NEC background will chime it but I thought there were code provisions that dictate plugs and receptacles need to have differences based on current ratings etc. so that things aren't inadvertently connected together that shouldn't be.

It could be a pretty big deal to mix up your speaker connections and AC mains connections. I'd say that's one good reason (beyond what may be UL or NEC technicalities) why they came up with powerCON.

 

[tyfernandez]

I can only imagine that the marketing department might have been behind the decision to develop powerCON. Why give a current product a new use by getting it UL certified when you can make a "new" product that is basically the same thing. I don't think this is 100% the case with Neutrik, as they did make some good changes from speakON to powerCON, but I have to imagine it influenced the decision to create powerCON.

I would love to hear someone with some good knowledge on the topic weigh in as well.

 

[Kaz]

I've been in the pro audio business for about 20 years. I can remember when the Neutrik SpeakOn connectors started to become really popular. There is a 4 pole connector (NL4FC or NL4FX) and an 8 pole version (NL8). They were much cheaper than the other standard at the time, the EP/AP connector. The EP/AP connectors had a higher current rating and were usually made of metal bodies and would cost about $15-20 per connector. Once the speakon connectors came out, much like the home brewing community seems to have, a lot of audio guys figured out that they could use SpeakOn as a low cost AC mains connector. Problem was that it isn't UL listed for AC usage and people could also plug a 8 Ohm speaker cabinet into 120VAC receptacle usually resulting in bad things. Thus Neutrik saw the application and responded with the Powercon. The reason they never would've submitted the SpeakOn for UL listing as an AC connector is simple...its a loudspeaker connector.

 

[whoaru99]

I can only imagine that the marketing department might have been behind the decision to develop powerCON. Why give a current product a new use by getting it UL certified when you can make a "new" product that is basically the same thing. I don't think this is 100% the case with Neutrik, as they did make some good changes from speakON to powerCON, but I have to imagine it influenced the decision to create powerCON.

I would love to hear someone with some good knowledge on the topic weigh in as well.

It's not a big marketing ploy. It's a basic matter of not using the same connector for two completely different and non-interchangeable applications.

 

[biertourist]

I hate to say it but I have an update: my Switchcraft connector (power-in) finally caused a fire... Doesn't look like they touched at all the red "hot" wire in my control panel burned up; might have taken my power on contactor with it.

The heat got so significant it fused the female and male switchcraft connectors together. My best guess is that the hot push-on connector wiggled loose while it was running at full on 19 amps and that caused the resistance to spike and burn stuff up. I'm not 100% sure about root cause yet but my SSR also has some melt damage.

I'm going to try to find a new 4 wire connector but I went with a very small and compact control panel box so I don't have room for a NEMA plug.


Adam

 

[John Eberly]

The fact that these connectors have not been submitted for UL listing means they have not been tested to see if they are safe.
I am pretty sure there is no way they would pass the high potential or heat cycle tests base on the small size of both the contacts and the minimal spacing between the spade lugs.
On top of that, 1/4" spade lugs are not rated for anywhere near 30 amperes.
The only smart approach is to use national electrical manufacturer's association (NEMA) rated receptacles and plugs. You can look these connectors up on the Hubble website

http://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/...ubbell-wiring.com/press/catalog/B.pdf&Page=17

If you need a larger control panel to fit these you don't have safe clearances inside your panel now.

Follow the rules on electrical stuff, or prove that Darwin was right - your choice.

 

[BrunDog]

^^this^^

 

[kal]

I can't say I've been overly comfortable with these connectors either. I wouldn't use them for high current connections. YMMV.

Kal

 

[Bobby_M]

The fact that these connectors have not been submitted for UL listing means they have not been tested to see if they are safe.
I am pretty sure there is no way they would pass the high potential or heat cycle tests base on the small size of both the contacts and the minimal spacing between the spade lugs.
On top of that, 1/4" spade lugs are not rated for anywhere near 30 amperes.
The only smart approach is to use national electrical manufacturer's association (NEMA) rated receptacles and plugs. You can look these connectors up on the Hubble website

http://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/...ubbell-wiring.com/press/catalog/B.pdf&Page=17

If you need a larger control panel to fit these you don't have safe clearances inside your panel now.

Follow the rules on electrical stuff, or prove that Darwin was right - your choice.

Do you know for a fact that 1/4" spades cannot be rated for 30amp or are you speculating?

I'm aware of at least one brand of power relay with 30a/240v ratings that is UL listed and all the contacts are spade.

 

[augiedoggy]

I hate to say it but I have an update: my Switchcraft connector (power-in) finally caused a fire... Doesn't look like they touched at all the red "hot" wire in my control panel burned up; might have taken my power on contactor with it.

The heat got so significant it fused the female and male switchcraft connectors together. My best guess is that the hot push-on connector wiggled loose while it was running at full on 19 amps and that caused the resistance to spike and burn stuff up. I'm not 100% sure about root cause yet but my SSR also has some melt damage.

I'm going to try to find a new 4 wire connector but I went with a very small and compact control panel box so I don't have room for a NEMA plug.


Adam

I also had the 2 genuine switchcraft connectors from mouser fail in the last 3 months after 4 years use soon after switching from 4500w loads to 5500w loads which caused them to heat up and fail...
I did discover that there are many different manufacturer and bought a couple recently and found they are not 100% compatible despite using the same number type connector... I recently switched to these 30A connectors and they dont even get slightly warm when drawing 5500w through them..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171837167866?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I also had a NEC rated 20amp nema connector burn up despite only having 17 amps going through it because the screw terminal inside had worked itself loose over the years apparently so yeah YMMV regardless... my new connectors are soldered so I feel better about them after testing them myself even though they dont have the NEC testing and are 6 times less expensive because of it.

 

[augiedoggy]

Do you know for a fact that 1/4" spades cannot be rated for 30amp or are you speculating?

I'm aware of at least one brand of power relay with 30a/240v ratings that is UL listed and all the contacts are spade.

many 25 and 30a relays and contactors come to mind for me as well...

 

[biertourist]

Additional update: I've replaced the switchcraft Korean connector with the made-in-Lichtenstein Neutronik speakOn SPX NL4FX with the 90 degree angle bend (my power-in connector is on the left hand side of my control panel box) and it's a thing of BEAUTY.

I really can't believe how much nicer these are in every way vs. the Switchcraft connectors. I really like how easy these screw on connectors are to wire and how clear their directions are. The connectors still don't fit over the really thick jacketed HD 10/4 wires without using a dremel to open up the cable relief gland, but these were a world easier to wire and a way better physical connection. They twist to lock, too which is just great. 10 AWG wire is the absolute MAX wire size that will fit with these and then only if you haven't twisted the wire too much there's just not any extra clearance in them.

I'm going to replace my spa panel side of the power-in connection with one as well; I like them for when you require a 4 wire solution.



Having said that, replacing my control panel's melted power-in connection didn't fix all my brewery woes- my main power in contactor is what ended up burning up. I accidentally ordered a 24v coil Packard 2 pole contactor instead of a 120v coil so I'm waiting for the new contactor to show up and we'll see if swapping that out gets me back up and working.

I also found out that the Fotek 40 amp SSR that I have been using is very often counterfeited and many of them ship with actual 20 or 30 amp SSRs inside- I've got a new, physically smaller, UXCELL 40 amp SSR that comes highly recommended. It'll either sit as my backup SSR in the event that the Fotek burns out or if the SSR died, too I'll be switching to it immediately. -I've also beefed up my heat sink with a few strategically placed mini heat sinks and am adding an external fan to my heatsink. -I liked the simplicity of passive cooling before but now that I'm jumping from a 4500 watt HLT element to a 5000 watt HLT element I want to focus a bit more on component longevity after burning up my first component.

I'm only powering a single element at a time -4500 watt (19 amp) in the kettle and 5500 watt in the HLT- so a 23 amp max draw- a couple more if the element is running @ 100% with both pumps on.


Eventually I'll probably replace the elements' Switchcraft connectors for Neutrik PowerCon 32 amp connectors. They might not be UL listed, but they've got UK and EU certifications and the Europeans have much more 240v experience than us...


Adam

 

[John Eberly]

Do you know for a fact that 1/4" spades cannot be rated for 30amp or are you speculating?



I'm aware of at least one brand of power relay with 30a/240v ratings that is UL listed and all the contacts are spade.

I looked up connectors and the only spade terminals I could find rated for #10 wire are for 3/8" spades. I don't think you can get a 1/4" spade that will take 30 amp wire.

 

[John Eberly]

Do you know for a fact that 1/4" spades cannot be rated for 30amp or are you speculating?



I'm aware of at least one brand of power relay with 30a/240v ratings that is UL listed and all the contacts are spade.

I looked up connectors and the only spade terminals I could find rated for #10 wire are for 3/8" spades. I don't think you can get a 1/4" spade that will take 30 amp wire.

Do you have a product in mind?