Electric burners - Any builders out there?

[CidahMastah]

After a second reading.....

You want to put a NORMAL 60A breaker in the main panel and feed the subpanel with it, and then use two 30A GFCI breakers in the subpanel to power your brewery.

That should work fine.

Yes I should have been more clear - a regular 2pole 60 amp breaker (not the junk GFI one I bought).

Out of curiosity, could the 60 amp gfi one I bought work? I hadn't even thought of using that from the load center. But if there are 2 30 amp GFI breakers in the subpanel they will be adding the neutral from the subpanel.

I assumed that with the 60amp GFI breaker's intended wiring (one neutral) it may render it no usable

 

[Walker]

You cannot use the 60A GFCI w/o neutral to feed your basement subpanel. If you did that, then you would not be able to use neutral at all down in the basement. The 60A GFCI would trip as soon as you tried to carry current on neutral in the basement because that breaker wouldn't "see" the current on the neutral and would believe that current from the 240V feed was escaping somewhere where it wasn't supposed to go.

That 60A GFCI w/o neutral cannot have any 120V items downstream of it anywhere.

 

[CidahMastah]

You cannot use the 60A GFCI w/o neutral to feed your basement subpanel. If you did that, then you would not be able to use neutral at all down in the basement. The 60A GFCI would trip as soon as you tried to carry current on neutral in the basement because that breaker wouldn't "see" the current on the neutral and would believe that current from the 240V feed was escaping somewhere where it wasn't supposed to go.

That 60A GFCI w/o neutral cannot have any 120V items downstream of it anywhere.

I figured that was the case, but lacked understanding on it. Thank you for the explanation!

 

[CidahMastah]

One other question. I noticed when I was in my main load center last week that ground and neutrals were going into the same bus bar slot (G + N from the same breaker/12/2 line heading out of the load center). This was the case with only 2 of the circuits. i.e. the neutral and ground from the same circuit breaker were into the same screw terminal on the bus bar. Is this correct? I thought they had to have separate spots on the bus bar. I was thinking about buying an add on bus bar and giving each their own spot but wasn't sure if this was necessary.

 

[bruin_ale]

It doesn't matter which terminal they go to, the entire bus bar has the same voltage potential. The neutral and ground busses are normally tied at the main service panel - that's the only place where mixing neutral and ground is accepted.

 

[CidahMastah]

It doesn't matter which terminal they go to, the entire bus bar has the same voltage potential. The neutral and ground busses are normally tied at the main service panel - that's the only place where mixing neutral and ground is accepted.

I know the subpanels are not supposed to have the neutral and ground bus bars tied. And knew the load center does have the two bus bars tied.

So from what you are saying if I needed to add some extra things in and run out of spaces on the bus bar, I can combine the neutral and the ground wires to share 1 spot for a given circuit with no ill affects. On the main load center only of course. Good to know!

 

[CidahMastah]

So good news is that i did all the subpanel work in my basement. I ran a new feed line from a 2pole 60amp breaker into a 100amp subpanel with two 2pole 30amp GFI breakers. From there I have two four prong outlets just outside the subpanel.

I am now in the design phase of my new control panel set up. Since I just had my beer/yeast refridge tank on me and the washer last night it looks like it will be a bit before I can get cash into my new control panel for sure. But I digress...

Originally I was thinking about running two control panels that were separate and distinct for the HLT and BK. However I have recently be toying with the idea of having one control panel with two PID's and one project box with the power items away from the stand (contactors, SSRs, outlets for BK and HLT wiring). I assume that it is a big "no no" to have two feeds coming in to two distinct buses in the same single panel. Am I correct? i.e. will I need to have two separate project boxes for the power coming out of each of my 2 30amp GFI breakers?

One concern I have already is that there would be a lot more wires running between boxes if I don't keep all the guts in one box.

Pic is of the way I think I would need to do it, with two separate project boxes after the plug in to the 4 prong outlets; lines running out of the project boxes would feed PIDs, elements would plug into outlet at the project boxes and not the control panel.

 

[Walker]

You can feed both 30A power cords into a single grey box and power everything from it with a single black project box (like on the left). Just think of the black project box as the "front panel" of your greay project box... it just happens to be on a tether of wires instead of a hinged door.

Inside the black box you put the switches and other control devices that you need to manipulate with your fingers (PID, toggle switcges, etc). You will have a decent number of wires connecting the black and grey boxes together, but you can do it. And you just need to be mindful of not mixing up hot lines and stuff.

I would bring one 30A feed into the grey box and have it dedicated to one kettle.

The other 30A feed comes in and supports the other kettle, plus passes power onto the black box and the control items. That way you don't have to worry about having a bunch of different hot lines or neutral lines inside the black box.

In fact... if you did it that way, one of the 30A feeds into the grey box (the one you dedicate to a kettle and nothing else) would not even need to bring in a neutral into the grey box.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks Walker - I am going to mull over this for a while. Trying to decide if the extra wiring is worth it... It might be good for me to have two boxes: one box I can brew in the garage with by switching elements from BK to HLT in one box and another for when I basement brew with two elements at once.

 

[CidahMastah]

Ok so this is off track since I hit a snag this past weekend while brewing. I am hoping you guys can comment on this and let me know if this sounds like a failing PID or a connection problem.

Was brewing this weekend and at about 20 minutes left in the boil my PID starting flashing the ORAL code (means a probe is disconnected). It wouldn't sense the probe and therefore it wouldn't continue the boil (no power to element unless probe is sensed). Luckily this happened for only about 35-40 seconds then it started back up - during that time I did nothing except toggle between the HLT and BK to see if either connection worked (neither did). However this happened once for a stint in my last brew session too so now I am nervous the PID or wiring issues might be present.

My rig is set up with a 3P switch, so I can toggle between the BK probe and the HLT Probe, or off. Has been installed for a long time with heat shring soldered connections on the 3p switch (those should be reliable). I rechecked the connections and they looked good there and at the kettle connection (wiggling them did not restart the element, for the second occurrence I didn't touch any wiring and the problem corrected itself).

For now I am going to take apart and redo the wiring connections for the probes (as advised by auberins tech support).

For reference. The guy at auberins told me that if I connect a copper wire to terminal 4 and 5 on the PID during the fail state and change the PID temp probe setting to "0" it should read ambient air temp. If it doesn't the PID is toast. I plan to rig up a SP switch to those terminals so I can flip a switch if/when it fails again to test it. But since I have to wait for it to fail I can't run that test until I have the issue again.



If any of you guys have had any issues like this please give a shout. For now I will rewire the connections and wait for it to fail again and try shorting the terminals out as they recommended. last resort would be to swap PID's to see if that fixes it, since I just got another one for xmas!


*Note/update*
I have a feeling my micro super cheap 2 pole toggle switch may have failed. and that there is nothing wrong with the probes. Since I am upgrading my build I am not going to trouble soot this unless convenient.

 

[CidahMastah]

pulled the connections apart in the probes and they are soundly soldered. So I pulled the PID out so it is possible for me to quickly swap the guts for the new PID I bought and/or flick a switch and short out terminals 4 and 5 if I note the failure again. I think it has to be something with the probes.... Time will tell!

In other news I have some seriously ugly junk that I am working on that will make you guys proud. Can't wait to post a picture of this. I am repurposing a 15'' attic gable fan (I put in ridge vent in the fall). I will be using it to push water vapor out of the basement when I brew, and the way that I am doing it is freakin' hilarious. The only issue I think I will have is that I believe it will be too powerful. I think if I were to reduce the power on it I would stress the motor by under feeding it. Anyway, pics to come in the near future.

 

[CidahMastah]

So back to my panel design. After a good amount of thought I decided I am going to go with a single enclosure, and feed both 30 amp circuits into two terminal blocks in one larger box. I assume that I can make a single ground bar in the enclosure (both terminal blocks will join up to one screw for the ground)?

I will be getting my first draft of the sketch up soon!

 

[CidahMastah]

Ok here is my draft of the left side of the panel. I was thinking about consolidating sides at first, but then I was thinking that it would be nice to have two fully redundant sides in the same box as this would give me a built in back up should I have an issue with an SSR, etc. So here is the drawing, hopefully it isn't too small... um looks like it is. I will have to find a work around...

Updated:
oop noticed that I had a power light (red one on the same line going to t he contactor). I believe this lights are like 3amp or something capacity so that would blow the light. I moved it to the hot going to the pump outlet as that will never see more than 2amp before the slow blow fuse does its thing.

 

[CidahMastah]

I also had a question.

I want to use a small 3amp switch to shut off the power to the each side of the control box. Can I share the neutral from the contactor with my 22mm light spliced neutral (heading back to the terminal block)? i.e. Is it ok to share this particular neutral with all the lights on half the panel or should I plan on giving it a separate spot on the terminal block? I belive this neutral is related to turning on the switch only, so I think it should be ok.

 

[yjfun]

You should be fine sharing.

 

[CidahMastah]

You should be fine sharing.

Thanks - is the general philosophy that you don't want to overload. So while sharing a bunch on low amperage lights is ok but you probably don't want to share neutrals from two current thirsty items?

 

[yjfun]

Yes the philosophy is to not overload your circuits. I said you could probably share in this case because it appears you are only using the switch to control a single contactor. The load increase from one small contactor coil is so minimal that it would not have much of an effect on the total load. The switch itself won't add to the load unless it has a light built into it.

 

[P-J]

Thanks - is the general philosophy that you don't want to overload. So while sharing a bunch on low amperage lights is ok but you probably don't want to share neutrals from two current thirsty items?

There is a plan for that as well. Just place the 120V devices so that they are more or less balanced on the 2 120V phases. When that is done, the neutral only carries the difference. That is exactly how a 240V mains panel is setup in a home.

 

[JRems]

I am repurposing a 15'' attic gable fan (I put in ridge vent in the fall). I will be using it to push water vapor out of the basement when I brew, and the way that I am doing it is freakin' hilarious. The only issue I think I will have is that I believe it will be too powerful. I think if I were to reduce the power on it I would stress the motor by under feeding it. Anyway, pics to come in the near future.

if you need to slow the fan speed look into a router speed control. You should be able to slow the fan without reducing the power.

 

[P-J]

if you need to slow the fan speed look into a router speed control. You should be able to slow the fan without reducing the power.

It is a whole different ball game with a router. They are constructed and wired in a very similar manner to a DC motor. (They have both stator windings and rotor windings with a commutator setup to power the rotor. That is not the case with the typical fan motor. You cannot control the speed of it with that device. Cannot be done without damaging the motor (and possibly your home).

Be careful what you do.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks guys - I appreciate it! That helps me understand a bit more about the balance of the two phases.

 

[CidahMastah]

I need a little help with some switches. I saw these on a fellow HBers build and needed a little help understanding the lingo.

What I am looking for:
1. 120v switch
2. illuminates when in the on position, no illumination in the off position.
3. Static switch (I believe the correct term for that is "maintained"). i.e. there is no spring mechanism on the switch. I turn it left or right and it stays where I dial it to.
4. Based on the electric brewery site I think I am looking for N.O. (normally opened)contact block.

Is this the switch for me?

Appreciate the help, I am trying to upgrade my lingo with switches so I am not so apprehensive to buy them


Update:

Answer from PJ on another thread:

#1 - This depends on how you wire the indicator lamp. If you wire it from the switch load side (through the lamp to neutral) it will be on only when the switch is on. If you wire it from the power input side it will be always on.
#2 - That particular switch is a maintained switch. (No spring return.)

...trying to keep this information together for my build

 

[CidahMastah]

I did some toying with my faceplate control panel layout. So I attached a picture of what I came up with.

I still have yet to decide if I will suck it up and buy a big heat sink, or keep with the smaller sinks I have and use fan. If I do go the fan route I have decided that I will wire in the fan to the element hot side of the 120 lines coming out of the contactor. This way, the fan will be triggered on whenever an element is fired and it won't require a separate switch on the face plate.

The on/off power to each element will be controlled by a contactor.

I still have to decide if I want the ventilation fan to be separate or included in the control panel. So that is TBD as well.

I have toyed with the idea of an overhead swing arm light (for basement brewing). That may be a part of the panel too. Still some thinking to be done on if that makes sense or not. Pretty easy to keep those parts separate. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[CidahMastah]

So I got a heck of a deal on ebay on some things and it totally will change out my layout and switches.

Bought myself a 16x12x8 enclosure and a ton of the basic switches, individual lights and a couple more contactors. Last night I put in my order for more terminal blocks so it looks like I will be able to start the fabrication of the box sooner than expected.

Pictures to follow in the coming days for sure!

 

[CidahMastah]

Just curious - is there any reason to trhow out the back plate on this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=110673448200&view=all&tid=788559233001

(this is the enclosure I bought)

I was thinking that it would be nice to be able to tap in all the components (terminal bus, contactors, etc.) to the plate and leave it in the box. Does anyone see a problem with that?

 

[bruin_ale]

that link isn't working for me.. but I used a similar enclosure for mine.

what else would you do with the back plate? I did exactly what you mentioned, I screwed my DIN rails, terminal blocks, contactors, etc. to the backplate. That's what it's for right?

 

[CidahMastah]

that link isn't working for me.. but I used a similar enclosure for mine.

what else would you do with the back plate? I did exactly what you mentioned, I screwed my DIN rails, terminal blocks, contactors, etc. to the backplate. That's what it's for right?

Try this link

Well in the electric brewery instructions they throw it out, and in the minigraphic on this listing they show you removing and throwing it out.

For me I was like... duh! I don't want screws sticking out the back unless I have to! I will use it as I intended. Sounds like this is a personal preference.

 

[bruin_ale]

Still confused..
On the website, it clearly shows his components mounted to the backplate...

 

[CidahMastah]

Ha ! I swear I am not crazy, ok maybe a wee bit. You are right about electric brewery - I screwed up there and completely blame that fabrication on my brain. But look at this odd jpeg screen shot from that ebay posting. I take this as, pull out metal back plate and toss to garbage. weird, but I am going to use it to hold components.

 

[iijakii]

No, it says to toss the standoff covers into the garbage. Your panel should have had these plastic caps over the four backplate standoffs and the grounding posts. They're trivial, toss 'em and install the backplate.