Electric burners - Any builders out there?

[P-J]

How do you have the element mounted and wired? The reason I'm asking is that it is very possible that the problem is in the connections to the element.

An example: A friend had the same thing happen to him. His element was wired with crimp on terminal lugs between the wire ends and the element terminal block. This was all housed in an electrical box mounted to his keg. He got several brew sessions done and then ran into the same problem.

The end happenstance was that the crimp on lugs presented some resistance to the element current and over time this caused the connection to heat up. The more he use it the more it heated until the point of failure. When it failed, the wire/lug connection was burned through.

In his case, the solution was to restrip the end of the wire and reapply new terminal lugs - but - this time he also soldered (electrical solder) the lug/ wire connection. He's still brewing with it that way without issue. This happened several years ago - BTW.

You might want to take a look.

Edit for more thoughts: You might want to test the wiring with an ohm meter. This will help you locate the fault.

 

[CidahMastah]

How do you have the element mounted and wired? The reason I'm asking is that it is very possible that the problem is in the connections to the element.

An example: A friend had the same thing happen to him. His element was wired with crimp on terminal lugs between the wire ends and the element terminal block. This was all housed in an electrical box mounted to his keg. He got several brew sessions done and then ran into the same problem.

The end happenstance was that the crimp on lugs presented some resistance to the element current and over time this caused the connection to heat up. The more he use it the more it heated until the point of failure. When it failed, the wire/lug connection was burned through.

In his case, the solution was to restrip the end of the wire and reapply new terminal lugs - but - this time he also soldered (electrical solder) the lug/ wire connection. He's still brewing with it that way without issue. This happened several years ago - BTW.

You might want to take a look.

Edit for more thoughts: You might want to test the wiring with an ohm meter. This will help you locate the fault.

Again P-J thanks.

I am using crimped on circle terminals that are rated for 10g wire.

Are you suggesting that I get out some solder and cut, strip, reattached the crimps and solder on? I will do so the next round. Any special way of doing it or jsut soldering like I normally would? I don't mind making shepherd hooks with the bare stranded copper if that would provide a better connection.

I originally used the circle connectors as a safety tool - but I could skip them if there is a better way to do it.

When I test with an ohm meter - you are referring to a continuity check with the failed element?

Edit: The element butt end was hot when I pulled it out, but that was right after disconnecting and emptying the pot to a new kettle. There wasn't any plasticy burning smell, etc. So I assumed the element plastic would get hot like that under normal use. Though.... not sure what the temp was since I don't stick my fingers in there during a boil.

 

[P-J]

First thing is to determine if that is the point of failure. Can you meter it?

 

[CidahMastah]

First thing is to determine if that is the point of failure. Can you meter it?

I do have a meter (AC/DC/Ohm, etc). Could I meter the terminals as is (without the element installed)? What am I looking for?

I will see if I still have the element - might have been tossed with the spent grain. The GFI wasn't tripping this time. The control box was on and running but the element was not pushing out any heat - like it just failed.

If I have the element I can reassemble and meter it.

If I don't have it I will try going bare copper stranded on the terminal screws on the new element, or solder on new circle terminals.

 

[P-J]

If you have the element, just meter it. You don't need to rewire it. If it is open you will know in a few seconds. If it shows about 12 to 13 ohms, the problem is not the element but something else.

 

[CidahMastah]

If you have the element, just meter it. You don't need to rewire it. If it is open you will know in a few seconds. If it shows about 12 to 13 ohms, the problem is not the element but something else.

Understood

I think I set the element aside in my garage and doing a resistance check will be super easy. Should be able to squeeze that in before I mow the lawn tonight It looks like I am dumpster diving if I tossed it with the grain ha!

In a way I hope it was the element that failed because at least I have some tangible evidence to work from. Will post back.

 

[CidahMastah]

So the bad news is that i couldn't find my element - even did a bit of dumpster diving with no luck.

When I checked the new element I got 10.9 ohms (not that that really tells us a lot about the previous issue).

Would you recommend that when I hook the kettle back up I redo the terminals as bare stranded or crimped and soldered vs. what they are now?

 

[P-J]

I'd say crimp and solder. You could also use the bare copper wrapped around the terminal, but if the wire is stranded, I'd solder it to bond the strands at the end. That way you have a strongly bonded current path.

None of this would matter with a low current draw application. The current draw that we experience in an environment that is hot to begin with changes things a little bit. in any case, I'd do it just for peace of mind.

 

[CidahMastah]

I'd say crimp and solder. You could also use the bare copper wrapped around the terminal, but if the wire is stranded, I'd solder it to bond the strands at the end. That way you have a strongly bonded current path.

None of this would matter with a low current draw application. The current draw that we experience in an environment that is hot to begin with changes things a little bit. in any case, I'd do it just for peace of mind.

Piece of mind is always good to have. I will follow your advice and give it a go (I always solder my speaker wire tips so this will be a snap).

Hopefully this go round with the new element will prove a longer run before failure

 

[bruin_ale]

I didn't solder, but crimped with ring terminals. Seemed like a solid connection.

 

[CidahMastah]

OK - so I am a bit confused, and getting annoyed at the lack of reliability of my electric set up.

So to follow up, I just hooked it all back up and the GFI is not tripping. However the element is not firing either. So shame on me for throwing the other one out.

I used a multimeter and I am getting 70v ac at the hots on the 240 outlet. Previously I measured this and was getting 238v ac.

I noticed it appears my SSR is not illuminating the red diode on it. So I am about to replace the SSR to see if that is the issue.

Any suggestions? I have to say, this electric unit is costing more than the perceived convenience.

Thanks gents,

 

[Walker]

Sounds like what I suspected. SSR stuck in the off position.

There is some current that leaks through them when they are off so you get weird voltage readings with a meter.

Use you meeter to verify that the PID is sending out a proper dc control signal though.

SSR could be fine and PID having problems.

 

[CidahMastah]

Sounds like what I suspected. SSR stuck in the off position.

There is some current that leaks through them when they are off so you get weird voltage readings with a meter.

Use you meeter to verify that the PID is sending out a proper dc control signal though.

SSR could be fine and PID having problems.

Thanks walker - just put in a new ssr and retested with the multimeter. So new SSR yielded 238v ac at the outlet as before. i.e. I assume bad SSR.

So that leads to the next question. Why did the SSR fail? Should I be looking for a better quality SSR?

Have to admit that I am a bit annoyed by the failures of the H/W. Tell me to eat lima beans and I will. Interpretation... tell me the part to buy that will be reliable and I will buy it. I got into the electric game for consistent, worry free reliable

 

[Walker]

Don't know what to tell you man. I used my system for a year before I ever had a problem with it, and that was really a self-inflicted wound.

 

[CidahMastah]

Don't know what to tell you man. I used my system for a year before I ever had a problem with it, and that was really a self-inflicted wound.

Could be bad luck - I certainly don't hold anyone accountable but myself. Just disapointed right about now. Guess it is time to order a back up SSR,.

Thanks for tuning in though. This project has helped me understand a lot about electric. Hopefully that isn't all I get out of this exercise.

:cross:

Maybe I brew too much

 

[Walker]

what SSRs are you using? Chinese ebay?

 

[CidahMastah]

yup... these: http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Rel...318?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255c29ade6

Glad I bought a spare

If you have a better one in mind - I would certainly consider it

 

[bruin_ale]

I'm using the chinese ebay SSR and I think alot of other folks are also since you can buy 4 for the cost of a single one from America (that's probably still built in China anyways).

In any case, they are much more likely to fail if you heat stress them. Be sure you're using a good thermal conductor between them and the heat sink. If your heat sink sink doesn't get warm, I'd worry that you're not conducting enough heat away from the SSR. Vice versa is also true, if the heat sink gets too hot to touch you're not moving air off it fast enough. If I recall, you used this setup for a while without a fan. That could have contributed to a premature failure of the SSR.

 

[Walker]

is that REALLY the right link? That one is for a DC output SSR.

 

[CidahMastah]

is that REALLY the right link? That one is for a DC output SSR.

No I just googled real quick - mine is AC which one are you guys using?

Bruin - I never used the sink without thermal grease. I did put a fan on it later and used a ghetto rigged fan on the frist one when I temped the sink at 190F with a laser temp gun

 

[Walker]

No I just googled real quick - mine is AC which one are you guys using?

Ok. I use that exact same SSR (240VAC, 40A, 3-32VDC control from china).

If you want to try something else, maybe just go with Auber's SSR?

 

[CidahMastah]

Ok. I use that exact same SSR (240VAC, 40A, 3-32VDC control from china).

If you want to try something else, maybe just go with Auber's SSR?

Wait are you saying the one on the link I sent is ok?

Just checked - that is the same seller as the one I bought, same product. Just lucky google. That is the SSR I bought

if this is unsafe let me know.

 

[Walker]

No. I was saying that the AC version of the SSR you linked to is what I use. If you bought DC ones then that is probably not good.

 

[CidahMastah]

No. I was saying that the AC version of the SSR you linked to is what I use. If you bought DC ones then that is probably not good.

well **** - just checked my hardware - they are DC output.

Can you give a knuckle head a link for the correct SSR on ebay or other?

f...!

 

[Walker]

On my phone in my car using voice recognition to send messages. I can't get you a link right now. Will do it later if begin doesn't beat me to it.

 

[bruin_ale]

You want DC control and AC load. Like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Solid...170?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255c2976a2

 

[CidahMastah]

Well I think I get the bone head award.

I read the spec sheet on that listing, and I just garbled it up. I was looking on the right side and it said 80-280VAC; but it looks like that was the different flavor and I was buying the DC version.

Thanks for the help - looks like we might have the issue pinned down. Now just to replace the SSR

 

[CidahMastah]

"Ordered"

 

[CidahMastah]

hopefully you guys are brewing this weekend - I am off to my parents house. Of course my dad is lokoing forward to the cooler full of growlers.

Take care and thanks again for the help. Just proves if you read it on the internet is isn't necessarily true

 

[bruin_ale]

haven't brewed in a few weeks.. but planning to soon. I've brewed almost 6 weeks in a row and hit the capacity of my keezer (4 tap). I've got 2 batches waiting for an open spot, hoping to kill a keg this weekend to make some room (if I don't I'll bottle the rest). Then next weekend maybe as a father's day gift to myself, I'll spend the day brewing