Electric burners - Any builders out there?

[Walker]

Oh, and you might need to configure the parameters for manual mode. There will be a time interval defined somewhere that should be set to something like 2 seconds, maybe less.

And, of course, the percentage of "on time" over that interval, which will be shown on the "sv" (set value) window of the pid.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks Walker - will start to digest the manual, and try your suggestion as noted above. Hopefully that will give me the quick start I am looking for.

I was considering cutting a hole in a HD bucket to attempt a fit check and quick element test (going through the bottom with the element sticking up). This would be a very basic test to see if the element begins to heat the water. If it does, then it is pot hole cutting time. Does this sound like a reasonable way to check the system without committing to cutting that hole in my pot?

My rationale is, I don't want to cut into my pot if I can't use it to boil this weekend with electric. I have a big starter that has been going for my IPA and I want to use it


Btw: I have the auberins PID (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3)

 

[CidahMastah]

Just curious - if I unplug the PID (control box) between brew sessions, will have to reprogram each time?

 

[Walker]

Yeah, if you want to do a full heating test before cutting your kettle, then you would have to do something like that with the bucket or whatever. I tested functionality with a lightbulb (connected between SSR output and neutral), making sure the PID could turn it on and off, and then I just went for it with the element.

I'm a little concerned about the fact that your bucket can't/won't be grounded and you will have the element coming up through the bottom. Meaning... if it leaks, the water will run all over the electrical connections on the element.

and remember that even if you leak test it first, the plastic will get warm and may loosen. Leak free at before heating doesn't mean leak free after heating.

Spooky.

 

[Walker]

the PID retains programming when it is powered off.

 

[CidahMastah]

Yeah, if you want to do a full heating test before cutting your kettle, then you would have to do something like that with the bucket or whatever. I tested functionality with a lightbulb (connected between SSR output and neutral), making sure the PID could turn it on and off, and then I just went for it with the element.

I'm a little concerned about the fact that your bucket can't/won't be grounded and you will have the element coming up through the bottom. Meaning... if it leaks, the water will run all over the electrical connections on the element.

and remember that even if you leak test it first, the plastic will get warm and may loosen. Leak free at before heating doesn't mean leak free after heating.

Spooky.

Yup you nailed my two concerns on the head.... The malleable nature of plastic when hot, and the leak potential of it being underneath the bucket.

Regarding the grounding, the 2 gang box isn't a sufficient ground?

Great news about not having to re program the PID after power off.

 

[CidahMastah]

OK so the manual says "For SSR output, t is set at the
minimum (2 seconds). For relay or contactor output, it should be set longer to
prevent contacts from wearing out too soon. Normally it is set to 20~ 4 0
seconds."

Since I am using the contactors as a way to switch on and off the elements, this won't effect me right? That is, I am not turning the switch on and off, rather, current will be cycled on and off through the closed switch. Therefore it will not wear out the contactor as noted above?


Edited 1/17/2012

For my PID I did the following:

1. In display mode 1 or 2 press "set" and hold for two seconds to display parameter menu.
2. Press "set" 9 times to get to "t" - use increment and decrement buttons to set value to "2" for SSR outputs.
3. Press "set" and use increment and decrement buttons to set "SN" code to 21 for (PTD100Rtd probes)
4. Press "set" and if "Dp" = "0" then leave as is for F degree reading.
5. Press "set" 12 times (A/M) use increment and decrement buttons to set value to "0" for manual mode

note the following assumptions:

a. OP-A (output mode) for the SYL-2352 PID is only available in the SSR control output configuration - so there is no need to set it.
b. COOL (System function, i.e. heating/cooling) for the SYL-2352 PID it is preset to 10 and that is the correct setting for heating and F temp; C = setting 2).

To operate in Manual mode with the above set:
1. press "A/M" to switch to manual Mode
2. use increment and decrement buttons to set value for % of power to element


To Autotune:
1. Press "set" to get to "at" - use increment and decrement buttons to set value to "2". It will flash and automatically start autotune. To do this correctly you want to autotune with your typical strike water volume and you have to be over 10F away from that target (start the autotune early, it seems to work better IME).
2. Once it is done on autotune you need to go in and reset the a/m back to "1" so you can use auto and manual heating modes. Autotune pushes the A/M setting back to 2 (manual mode prohibited).

 

[Walker]

OK so the manual says "For SSR output, t is set at the
minimum (2 seconds). For relay or contactor output, it should be set longer to
prevent contacts from wearing out too soon. Normally it is set to 20~ 4 0
seconds."

Since I am using the contactors as a way to switch on and off the elements, this won't effect me right? That is, I am not turning the switch on and off, rather, current will be cycled on and off through the closed switch. Therefore it will not wear out the contactor as noted above?

Wanted to make sure I was reading this right.

The "contacts" they are talking about are for relays built into the PID itself. They are not talking about your external contactor. You are good here.

 

[CidahMastah]

ha - duh... read that completely wrong - thanks for the clarification

 

[Walker]

actually, I kind of read it wrong.

However, what they mean is that if you are using the PID to switch on and off a mechanical relay of some sort, then you want a longer time period specified so that the thing isn't click-clacking all the freaking time and killing itself.

If you are driving an SSR, then there are no moving parts to wear out and the cycle time can be set lower.

 

[bruin_ale]

Rather than do a bucket test... If you have a multimeter (and you really should for debugging any of this) I'd use that to measure the voltage at the plug for your element. You can essentially do a dry test, make sure that you're getting voltage when you expect it. At that point you should feel confident that you have proper control and go ahead with cutting the hole in your brewpot. Or, if you don't feel comfortable sticking metal probes into 240V by umpteen amps (I don't blame you) - you can just use the indicator lamps on your SSR (assuming yours has them, mine did).

 

[CidahMastah]

I do have a multimeter (used it to check continuity and diagnose my junker cars over the years) - I was more interested in seeing if the element was working correctly. I believe I may be over thinking this though. Either way I am committed. Probably should just get that hole in the pot and call it a day. If it doesn't work, I can always boil in the MT - just have to clean it first

Was thinking about that (two tiny probes stuck in a 240... ugh no thank you :cross:

About that thermal grease. I can't find any locally, which sucks because it ruins my chance for a test. They have the thermal compound, but that stuff is an adhesive right? So once i put it on it would be a bear to get off?

I have never used the stuff before so my assumptions could be wrong. Feel free to drop a little knowledge.

 

[Walker]

If you are scared of sticking the meter probes into the 240V, then you picked a terrible f*cking project to work on. You are going to have to stick the probes onto some 240V nodes in the thing at some point.

Regarding thermal paste: You have no RadioShack near you?

 

[CidahMastah]

If you are scared of sticking the meter probes into the 240V, then you picked a terrible f*cking project to work on. You are going to have to stick the probes onto some 240V nodes in the thing at some point.

Regarding thermal paste: You have no RadioShack near you?

Just curious, why would I have to test via the probes? Based on my wiring, 240 should be coming out. If any less is coming out it wouldn't hurt the element. Not sure why a multimeter would be a better test then hooking up the element for a dry run.


Radio shack doesn't have it - they only have the compound, not the grease. Since I don't know my final location of for the SSR, I don't want to permanently attach it for to the sink.

 

[Walker]

Just curious, why would I have to test via the probes? Based on my wiring, 240 should be coming out. If any less is coming out it wouldn't hurt the element. Not sure why a multimeter would be a better test then hooking up the element for a dry run.

It's not about checking whether you have more than 240V. Its about checking whether the SSR is switching properly and the right wires are connected to the right terminals on the receptacle and all that jazz. You can certainly test it by plugging the element in. I'm an engineer, and I like to test things in small pieces as I put something together.

I tested everything as much as I could before I plugged the element in, but that doesn't mean YOU have to do that.

Radio shack doesn't have it - they only have the compound, not the grease. Since I don't know my final location of for the SSR, I don't want to permanently attach it for to the sink.

That compound is not a glue. Just a grease and non-adhesive. It's exactly what I use. (little tube with orange and red label that says "Silicone Based Heat Sink Compound")

 

[CidahMastah]

I tested everything as much as I could before I plugged the element in, but that doesn't mean YOU have to do that.

Gotcha. That is a sound approach, I just figured if I could avoid poking in there I would. I spent a lot of time being careful with my wiring and triple checking connections and paths when i was done against my schematic. I guess I was relying on that, not that I am above making a mistake!

That compound is not a glue. Just a grease and non-adhesive. It's exactly what I use. (little tube with orange and red label that says "Silicone Based Heat Sink Compound")

I should have read that label! I saw some that said non-curing (online) but the girl in the store said the grease kind they didn't have in the store, and she thought the compound was hard to get off once it cured. So that made me think, adhesive...

Darn shack employee!

 

[CidahMastah]

Well grew some brajoles and got the multimeter out - glad I did. One of my concers was that I wired the contactors backwards - I did. So that was a great time saver, rewired so they are correct. Getting a reading of 238V steady at either outlet when they are switched to the on position. No juice cruising through at shut off. All other systems go, just have to get the pot ready.

The programming was as easy as noted above. At least, I think. Until I do a test boil, it doesn't prove anything

 

[Walker]

What exactly do you mean when you say you wired the contactor backwards? They don't really have a forwards or backwards.

 

[CidahMastah]

I wired the left one right and the right one left on the switch

On - Off - On was reversed - so the BK was the HLT and vice versa - I had the switch up side down when I wired it

 

[CidahMastah]

Man new egg is fast. So get this, ordered some of the silicone based stuff online yesterday for the heat sink (thermal grease). The stuff is being delivered to my house today!! - unreal how fast they are.

Looks like this weekend I should be able to do a test, if not the maiden strike water/boil run on the element. All that is left is drilling two holes and installing the element and the probe to my BK/HLT Pot.

I am going to watch that heat sink like a hawk. I have one of those laser termperature guns (shoot the laser beam at the object and it reads temps). So that will be pretty key in safely/quickly determining the heat sink temp accross the strike water heating or boil test runs.

My mega pot is pretty wide and a broad circle. From an eyeball fitiment perspective (of the element) based on the curvature of my pot, it looks like I will be able to thread the nut on once the hole is in. Let's hope that is true!

 

[Walker]

Before you attempt to use the system on regular PID mode, you'll want to calibrate your temp probe and probably do an auto-tuning cycle of the PID parameters so that you have good control of temps.

 

[CidahMastah]

Before you attempt to use the system on regular PID mode, you'll want to calibrate your temp probe and probably do an auto-tuning cycle of the PID parameters so that you have good control of temps.

Thanks for the tips walker. I didn't see anything about clibrating the probe in the manual. I will have to dig in again and look.

Just curious, is the probe calibrating crucial to running a manual mode test?


Here is the auto tune procedure. What is the purpose of the autotuning? Any recc on whether I should use AT 1 or AT 2? I guess I thought that setting the parameters meant I wouldn't ahve to autotune.


The auto-tune can be started in two ways. 1) Set At=2. It will start
automatically after 10 seconds. 2) Set At=1. Then you can start the auto-tune
any time during the normal operation by pressing the A/M key. During auto
tuning, the instrument executes on-off control. After 2-3 times on-off action,
the microprocessor in the instrument will analyze the period, amplitude,
waveform of the oscillation generated by the on-off control, and calculate the
optimal control parameter value. The instrument begins to perform accurate
artificial intelligence control after auto tuning is finished. If you want to exit
from auto tuning mode, press and hold the (A/M) key for about 2 seconds
until the blinking of "At" symbol is stopped in the lower display window.
Generally, you will only need perform auto tuning once. After the auto tuning
is finished. The instrument will set parameter “At” to 3, which will prevent the
(A/M) key from triggering auto-tune. This will prevent an accidental repeat of
the auto-tuning process.

 

[CidahMastah]

For the Probe callibration:

4.10 Input offset “Pb”
Pb is used to set an input offset to compensate the error produced by the
sensor or input signal itself.
For example, if the controller displays 5 ºC when probe is in ice/water mixture,
setting Pb=-5, will make the controller display 0 ºC.

8.3 Poor Accuracy
Please make sure calibration i s done by immersing the probe in liquid.
Comparing the reference in air is not recommended because response time of
the sensor depends on its mass. Some of our sensors have response time
>10 minutes in the air. When the error is larger than 5 °F, the most common
problem is an improper connection between the thermocouple and the
controller. The thermocouple needs to be connected directly to the controller
unless a thermocouple connector and extension wire is used. Copper wire or
a thermocouple extension wire with the wrong polarity connected on the
thermocouple will cause the reading to drift more than 5 °F.

I.e.

place probe in ice water and see the temp reading. Adjust Pb as needed to get your reading.

 

[Walker]

Thanks for the tips walker. I didn't see anything about clibrating the probe in the manual. I will have to dig in again and look.

Just curious, is the probe calibrating crucial to running a manual mode test?

If you want your temp readings to be accurate, you will need to calibrate the probe. They usually have some amount of error on them.

For example: my probe reads 1.3*F too high. In ice water, the probe will read 33.3*F and in boiling water it reads 213.3*F.

You can program this error into the PID and it will account for it on displays and during operation. After entering the amount of error offset, my PID now displays 32*F in icewater and 212*F in boiling water.

If you just want to test that you can heat and boil water, then the probe error is somewhat irrelevant, but if you intend to heat to a specific temp, then you'll want to find out what the error is and account for it in the PID programming.

In the online manual for your PID, the parameter is called "Input Offset" and is shown as "Pb" on the PID display when you are cycling through options.

 

[CidahMastah]

If you just want to test that you can heat and boil water, then the probe error is somewhat irrelevant, but if you intend to heat to a specific temp, then you'll want to find out what the error is and account for it in the PID programming.

It would be nice to have it reading the right temp so when I heat strike water it can be pretty darn close.

Thanks for the input - I will definitely callibrate the probe - looks very easy to do once I get some ice water in it.

 

[CidahMastah]

Walker - any personal experience with the auto-tuning? What are the advantages of using it?

 

[Walker]

It would be nice to have it reading the right temp so when I heat strike water it can be pretty darn close.

Thanks for the input - I will definitely callibrate the probe - looks very easy to do once I get some ice water in it.

I would suggest taking a small cup and packing it full of crushed ice. Fine crush and pack it in the cup. Then just add enough water to make it like that road slush that turns all grey in the winder. Stick the probe in that to calibrate at 32*F.

Walker - any personal experience with the auto-tuning? What are the advantages of using it?

I have had mixed results, but my PID is a cheap-o Chinese PID. The autotuning can take a while to complete on mine and I ended up manually massaging the auto-tuned parameters afterwards because I didn't like the way the damn thing was behaving (overshooting).

I don't know if Auber's auto-tune algorithms are better or not, but I can't see how they would be worse.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks for the tips on callibration!

I guess as far as PID's go, the auberin one is at least cheap in price, quality is to be assessed Am I correct in assuming that the auto tuning is a sort of optimization, if you will, of performance of the device based on your parameter settings? i.e. it adjusts some of the parameter settings, if it interprets them as less efficient, based what the fuzzy logic thinks will be the most efficient settings?

I guess it shows I am a total newb at this PID thing Asking all these gd questions What can I say,... inquiring minds want to know haha

 

[Walker]

during auto-tuning, the PID basically tries to learn about your system. things like
- if I kick on the heat, how long does it take before I see the temp start to increase
- if I turn off the heat, how long does it take before I see the temp STOP increasing
- if I kick on the heat for a short burst, how much effect on the temp does it cause
- if I don't do anything, how fast does the system lose heat
- etc
- etc
- etc

It gathers information about how your system behaves and then uses that to configure some of it's parameters so that it can better handle your system.

 

[CidahMastah]

So auto tuning is something that I should do during say a strike water heat or something? Or is it something I do prior to actual use. Sounds like the auto tuning has to be done on the substance that you are attempting to heat.

I could see why the auto tuning may cause overshooting if the fuzzy logic doesn't compensate for the heating curve of a liquid. I know the heating curve for water bringing it from say 33F to a boil is supposed to be constant, but my anecdotal experience seems contrary to that. i.e. it seems like the heating of the liquid struggles until it gains a sort of thermal mass, and then it sling shots the temp up a bit faster.

I wonder if the fuzzy logic compensates for this appropriately (probably depends on the quality of the PID).

Then again my anecdotal recollection of time vs. temp increase could be way off I usually am having a home brew when I am taking wort up to a boil!