Electric Brewing Question Please

[DesignatedDecoy]

Hey friends,

I did my best to keep this as short and sweet as possible.

Here’s my situation: I’ve hit a roadblock in my electric build. I went with the simplest controller setup, since all I want to do is free up my kitchen stove. I can foresee myself getting a new enclosure and adding a PID. Also, I’m using 8 awg wire since the window is so far from the outlet and, as good as it smells, I’m trying to minimize the brewery smell in the house by keeping the kettle close to the window.

Anyway, Here’s the problem: The 8 gauge wires are not properly fitting into the 30amp double pole switch. The only thing that was working was to… strip the wire, split the copper wires into a “v-shape”, then wrap each side of the v-shape wrap around either side of the screw. What are your thoughts on this? Should I leave it the way it is and wrap it in electrical tape? Or should I tin the wires then wrap it in electrical tape? Or is there another double pole switch that I can buy that will work better with 8 gauge wire?





Can I get at least a Few credible opinions if it’s not too much trouble?

Here is a picture of it so far and then a picture I drew of the wiring diagram. Would you comment on these pictures as well? Double check them, etc. I don't see any problems with the pictures but let me know if you want more at different angles or whatever.

and thank you Thank You THANK YOU! Love this site, what a great reference for learning.

DISCLAIMER: I am not an electrician!! I’m just am an average guy who has done a ton of research. Get everything you see and do checked, doubled checked, triple checked. Then call in an electrician to check it again.

 

[AnOldUR]

 

[brew_ny]

those above

or these

 

[ebstauffer]

+1 on the lugs. I tend to get my lugs at Harbor Freight but splurged this wratchet style tool after battling with a couple of the cheapy wire stripper / crimp tool combos from Disposable Tools -- errrr, I mean Harbor Freight.

 

[Jerz]

How far is FAR? Did you do a voltage drop calculation? With 30amps you could use #10 wire and use one of the yellow terminals posted above and then just make an extension cord out of the #8 so cord that you have? To figure voltage drop you just need the load and distance and an APP from the android store or post it here....

Hehe... OR after looking at what you've already done... just do a pigtail (a very short piece of wire) with #10 and the yellow spade terminals above and then use some blue wirenuts to transition from the #10 to #8...

cheers.

 

[DesignatedDecoy]

I actually did think of that. The 8 gauge terminals won't fit on the 30amp double pole switch. However, what i did was take the dremmel and file down some of the plastic on the 30amp double pole switch so the 8 gauge terminals would fit. I don't see any logic why that would be a problem. I didn't file down any metal/conductivity. I wrapped it in electrical tape, because why not, less exposed metal.

I think I got it right, but can someone verify that there are no human errors in my wiring diagram too please? I'd hate to mess up something as dangerous as 240v.

@Jerz Thanks for your help. Far means 45ft. I wanted it to hug the wall and look nice. From what I've read, though not recommended, 10 awg has been done without overheating. I chose to take the safer route and use 8 awg.
It seems you may know a bit more then me. Maybe you can help me out. i have a 4500 watt load (element) with the 45ft. distance. I'd pull ~25 amps max. Insulated SOOW cord/wire. I used this web site to find out that the voltage drop to be 1.3.
My question to you is what does a voltage drop of 1.3 mean to me? Less wattage on the element?

@ebstauffer that looks like a nice tool. I got myself my new favorite, a nice automated wire stripper for this job. Ironically, it's the best on everything except 8 awg. lol wire stripper

 

[IslandLizard]

+1 on the lugs. I tend to get my lugs at Harbor Freight but splurged this wratchet style tool after battling with a couple of the cheapy wire stripper / crimp tool combos from Disposable Tools -- errrr, I mean Harbor Freight.

That tool looks great but only crimps down to 12 gauge lugs.

 

[Brumateur]

My question to you is what does a voltage drop of 1.3 mean to me? Less wattage on the element?

Yes, your will loose around 50 watt of heating.
But voltage in mains can be +/- 5 Volts to nominal. So, don't worry about that 1.3Volt.

 

[iijakii]

I have http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002KR9GQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 and it's great. I know you were working with 8ga so that doesn't help, but figured I'd link it here for anyone sticker-shocked by that $60 one up a few posts.

 

[MDHarris]

Sorry if this is a double post. It looks like the your fan and the circuit board at the top of your box is on the load side of your ssr. If they are then you will want them wired off the switch. I may be looking at it wrong though. What is the fans voltage rating? Is that an amp meter?

 

[augiedoggy]

I actually did think of that. The 8 gauge terminals won't fit on the 30amp double pole switch. However, what i did was take the dremmel and file down some of the plastic on the 30amp double pole switch so the 8 gauge terminals would fit. I don't see any logic why that would be a problem. I didn't file down any metal/conductivity. I wrapped it in electrical tape, because why not, less exposed metal.

I think I got it right, but can someone verify that there are no human errors in my wiring diagram too please? I'd hate to mess up something as dangerous as 240v.

@Jerz Thanks for your help. Far means 45ft. I wanted it to hug the wall and look nice. From what I've read, though not recommended, 10 awg has been done without overheating. I chose to take the safer route and use 8 awg.
It seems you may know a bit more then me. Maybe you can help me out. i have a 4500 watt load (element) with the 45ft. distance. I'd pull ~25 amps max. Insulated SOOW cord/wire. I used this web site to find out that the voltage drop to be 1.3.
My question to you is what does a voltage drop of 1.3 mean to me? Less wattage on the element?

@ebstauffer that looks like a nice tool. I got myself my new favorite, a nice automated wire stripper for this job. Ironically, it's the best on everything except 8 awg. lol wire stripper

I would say the real issue here is the 8 gauge wire....
its making things difficult... At the least, cut away some of the wire so the ends fit into the spade connectors.... a 4500w element draws 18.2 amps at most.... even 10 gauge is overkill as some have used 12 with no issues...
I use about 70feet of 10 gauge feeding my dual 4500w + pump setup (only one element at a time) and everything works fine as I never draw over 20 amps on a 30 amp 10 gauge circuit...(I use an amp/voltmeter) I know solid core has different ratings than SOow but honestly I think its rated higher at an outlet cord. (this is why some use 12 gauge soow to power thier 5500w elements) .. In any case the 8 gauge is still overkill, it will work fine but if its giving you grief get a terminal block and scale it down to 10 for inside the panel wiring if you cant get the 8 to work well...

 

[ebstauffer]

@IslandLizard said:

That tool looks great but only crimps down to 12 gauge lugs.

That I have found, the yellow lugs always accommodate 12 and 10 gauge wire. I've never had a problem.

 

[brew_ny]

used 10 SOOW from the outlet to the controller works well even when cold, used 10 SJTW from the kettles to the controller

the SJTW is like a piece of lumber when it is cold, had two 12 foot pieces given to me so I used it

wouldn't be my first choice

S_M

 

[kenh]

Buy the right terminals - these are 8 gauge and fit a #10 screw.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0190710181/WM6967CT-ND/3044941

 

[DesignatedDecoy]

Ta Da! Just as I previously described.





@MDHarris

Sorry if this is a double post. It looks like the your fan and the circuit board at the top of your box is on the load side of your ssr. If they are then you will want them wired off the switch. I may be looking at it wrong though. What is the fans voltage rating? Is that an amp meter?

No, no, thanks. That makes perfect sense. The amp/volt meter wont work after the ssvr. Also I wouldn’t want to control my fan with the potentiometer. I drew up a new wiring diagram. Would you (or anyone else) mind giving this revised one a look por favor? The fan’s voltage rating is 220v and as I just mentioned it’s a combo amp and volt meter.


Morally, I feel I have to give another DISCLAIMER: I am not an electrician. Get everything you do and see checked and double checked by an electrician. 220v can kill you.




@augiedoggy

I would say the real issue here is the 8 gauge wire....

It really is. Nothing a little ingenuity can’t fix though. ☺ These wires are THICK though, and don’t bend as easily as I thought they would. I got lucky with the large size of my enclosure.



@kenh

Buy the right terminals - these are 8 gauge and fit a #10 screw.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0190710181/WM6967CT-ND/3044941

Nice, THAT is the answer to my question!! Too bad I already made accommodations, as you can see in the picture. But to anyone who wants to use 8 gauge wire, those are the perfect terminals.

 

[MDHarris]

The only other thing I see is that your switch wiring might need some adjusting. I just looked at one of my switches and the wires bringing the power in (line) need to both be on either the black screws or the gold screws, not one on black & one on gold. Your switch may be different but with mine it will cause a direct short between the two hot wires and damage the switch if it was wired like yours. It will also damage the plug on the cord you built and the outlet on the wall if you plug it in with the switch in the on position. If you could post a picture of the back of your switch where we can read the writing it might clear it up.

 

[DesignatedDecoy]

@MDHarris:

You are right! Saved my ass there! That wiring would’ve shorted the circuit. This is exactly why it’s good to double check. So I took a picture of the back of the switch and forgot that the switch only accepts copper (hence why I’m using copper terminals). So what I called the "perfect" terminals, the ones kenh recommended, would be perfect, IF you could find a copper version of them.

Anyway, the back of the switch is not much help with wiring, but check out the instructions that came with the switch.



Clear as day, the 240 volts go from the bottom of the switch out the top of the switch to the load.

I altered my wiring diagram accordingly. Would you mind checking another one? I hope this is the last one I gotta draw. Lol

Again, DISCLAIMER: I am not an electrician. I’m just an average person who’s done a lot of research. 240v is ****in dangerous!! Get everything you see check and double checked by an electrician.


I'm so close! Thanks for your help. I'll pay it forward.

 

[MDHarris]

Good job! Any plans of adding gfci protection? Just curious...

 

[DesignatedDecoy]

@MDHarris

I am a huge fan of safety and upon research, the GFCI's are very enticing.

I only have $20 left in my budget for this project and that won't cut it for a GFCI. Also, there is absolutely no room left in my enclosure.

What I'm going to do is, have a GFCI be my next upgrade for sure. What I want to do is have one that is inline with the soow wire/cord.
Like this one. (I know this is 120v and won't work but I'm talking about the concept).


Thanks again for your help MD. I also noticed that my SSVR was wired right to left instead of left to right, so I fixed that real quick. I'll draw up final copy of my wiring diagram, in case it eventually helps someone else. but other then that, I'm just finishing up the element enclosure and I'll be DONE!

I'll get back to you with some pictures and results. I'm stoked! I already got a Budweiser clone I'm ready to brew.

 

[AnOldUR]

POWER FIRST Attachable Portable Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter 120/240V

$10 on eBay.
But at 20 amps, I'd switch to a heating element 4000W or under to be safe.

 

[iijakii]

Only 20amp though, doesn't help OP much.

 

[iijakii]

OP really just needs to get the spa panel like most users here. It's really the best budget-conscious way. Inline 30amp gfcis are usually around the $100 mark unless you're lucky.

 

[AnOldUR]

Only 20amp though, doesn't help OP much.

4500W / 240V = 18.75 Amps

But I agree, it's a stretch.

 

[iijakii]

Oh, you're correct. I scrolled through and saw him say he was drawing 25amps. Maybe he was being very conservative heh.

 

[AnOldUR]

It would only be good for the heating element. No pumps or other 120V draws would be possible.

But you can't beat the price!

I'm using one like it for the 3000W heater in my HLT with a 20amp recepticle.

 

[MDHarris]

Good job catching the relay wiring. Its all easy to do wrong. The one wire in the wrong place is what tears up equipment and shocks people. What country are you in? Don't forget to double check the wiring in your cord cap.

 

[DesignatedDecoy]

As I said, here’s another wiring diagram. I would appreciate anyone credible going over the circuit and approving it. The more approvals the better. After I get a few more approvals on the wiring diagram to make sure there is no human error, I'll fire it up. Can't Wait!

Last DISCLAIMER: I'm not an electrician. 220 volts can kill you! Make sure you completely know what you're doing and get everything you see and do checked and double checked by an electrician.



@AnOldUR:

Only 20amp though, doesn't help OP much.
4500W / 240V = 18.75 Amps

But I agree, it's a stretch.

Yes, I wanted to leave an option open in case I wanted to upgrade to a 5500watt element. 5500w/220v = 25 amps I would only feel comfortable with a 30amp GFCI.


@iijakii:

OP really just needs to get the spa panel like most users here. It's really the best budget-conscious way. Inline 30amp gfcis are usually around the $100 mark unless you're lucky.

As I mentioned to augiedoggy, I had no idea the 8awg was so thick and does not bend easy. I would recommend a spa panel for sure. Even though all of extra space would be unnecessary, it would've made things easier. Plus, I could easily add the PID, GFCI, etc. later, without buying another enclosure. As with any project, I suppose this would be that one thing that could've been improved, but I do like the clear plastic cover for an additional peace of mind.

Also, I wanted to leave my options open for a 5500watt element, which pulls 25amps. 5500w/220v=25amps. Hence why I would only feel comfortable with a conservative 30amp GFCI, which yes is definitely pricy.


@MDHarris:
I’m from the states. I want to get this diagram approved by a few more people and I’ll fire it up. I thought i would test it by using the breaker as an on/off switch, as an additional element of safety.

And, double check the cord caps – Check.

 

[DesignatedDecoy]

I just realized I didn't post results. Well, it works like a ****ing charm.

I was so proud of myself when I saw everything working correctly. It's been a long journey knowing absolutely nothing about electricity, to about a year later, learning everything I could get my hands on. How Rewarding!! I'd recommend this to anyone, but make sure to over do your research because there's things you learn that you never thought about. I.E. never have the possibility for live male plugs, only have the possibility for live female plugs, so you can't zap yourself. "you don't know what you don't know" Alright, pep talks over haha.

Thanks again. I couldn't have done it without the homebrewtalk people !

 

[MDHarris]

Good job. Glad it worked out.