Electric Brewing in Southern California

[Frymn1969]

Question..is anyone running an all electric Homebrew system in SoCal? If so is the cost of running it prohibitive versus propane/gas?

I like the versatility and precision of electric brewing but don't want it to cost me an arm and a leg just to run it

 

[BigFloyd]

The cost of operating an electric system is quite a bit less than propane.

The big expenditure is in building it.

 

[Frymn1969]

The cost of operating an electric system is quite a bit less than propane.



The big expenditure is in building it.

Confirming your in Georgia?

 

[Frymn1969]

Confirming your in Georgia?

Never mind I see your in Texas. If were comparing semi automated electric to semi automated gas, is there really that much of a difference? I've penciled it out and figure I'll spend more on a electric control panel, but less on a gas stand. A semi automated gas system still has PID's, auto gas valves, temp sensors, etc.

 

[Photopilot]

Question..is anyone running an all electric Homebrew system in SoCal? If so is the cost of running it prohibitive versus propane/gas?

It is significantly less expensive than the rent I pay, the cost of my car insurance, the cost of fuel to and from work or the cost of keeping my lawn green during the 70 degree winter days.

Honestly I have never brewed on gas, but imagine no matter where you live electric would be cheaper than gas, but you would have to brew a lot of beer to rationalize the $2-500 you would have to invest to upgrade to electric.

 

[iijakii]

Never mind I see your in Texas. If were comparing semi automated electric to semi automated gas, is there really that much of a difference? I've penciled it out and figure I'll spend more on a electric control panel, but less on a gas stand. A semi automated gas system still has PID's, auto gas valves, temp sensors, etc.

I agree, it really isn't more expensive. Basic electric and basic gas are about the same, and semi-automated electric and semi-automated gas are about the same. You can have an element+SSVR or PWM for about the same price as you'd spend on a burner and propane tank. Everyone thinks electric is so expensive, but I'd say the way electric is used on this forum is a bit of a misnomer because so many people assume it's synonymous with badass HERMS rigs.

 

[Bsquared]

I have not noticed any increase in my electric bill since switching over to all electric. The base rate for 1 Kwh with SDG&E is ¢15, hypothetically if you where running 5500W element for 3 hr at 100% you would use ~16.5 KwH Thats about $2.48/ 3hr of energy. At least thats what I just calculated from this chart http://www.sdge.com/tiered-rates

 

[passedpawn]

I calcualated my cost in FL to make a 10g batch of beer to be about $2. Even in California, I would not think that the cost of power would be "prohibitive".

 

[Frymn1969]

I have not noticed any increase in my electric bill since switching over to all electric. The base rate for 1 Kwh with SDG&E is ¢15, hypothetically if you where running 5500W element for 3 hr at 100% you would use ~16.5 KwH Thats about $2.48/ 3hr of energy. At least thats what I just calculated from this chart http://www.sdge.com/tiered-rates

I'm in Temecula so this is close to me. My base rate is .07, tier 2 is .12, tier 3 .18, tier 4 is .22.. So if your brewing a few times a month it's not that big of a deal. I'll just shut my pool pump off on the days I brew!! Really looking forward to the consistency a E-HERMS will enable.

 

[agrazela]

Propane definitely more expensive than electric, but ever since S. California got Enron'ed, natural gas could easily be cheaper than electric...especially since everyone knows the tier structure hasn't been updated since the 1960's.

Maybe you could do one of those 0-down solar panel lease deals. We did, and now we can actually afford to run patio lighting in the winter and AC in the summer without resorting to meth selling!

 

[Frymn1969]

Propane definitely more expensive than electric, but ever since S. California got Enron'ed, natural gas could easily be cheaper than electric...especially since everyone knows the tier structure hasn't been updated since the 1960's.



Maybe you could do one of those 0-down solar panel lease deals. We did, and now we can actually afford to run patio lighting in the winter and AC in the summer without resorting to meth selling!

Shhh. Keep the side biz on the down low! Lol. I had a few solar companies evaluate my place for solar. I chose to switch out my pool pump to a variable speed which cut my electrical use down to a third of what I was using. My highest bill last summer was $210. Average bill is under $150 so Solar doesn't make sense to the lease guys

 

[kal]

I get asked all the time what the electrical costs are to brew with electricity, so I did the math based on the rate where I live, to brew 10 gallons of beer (~14 gallons preboil, 12 gallons post boil).

From my FAQ:

It costs us about $1.60 in electricity to brew 10 gallons of beer, assuming we brew during peak electrical rates ($0.12/kWh). If we brew on the weekends or evenings when the rate is half the peak rate, the cost is about $0.80. $0.12/kWh also happens to be the average US national rate so most US brewers should expect similar costs. These costs do not include taxes, delivery charges, or other fees that your electricity provider may add.

Most of the cost comes from powering the heating elements. We use one 5500W element in the both the Hot Liquor Tank and Boil Kettle to brew 10 gallons of beer. The heating elements are used as follows:

- Heat strike water: 45 minutes at 100% power usage = (45 / 60) * 1 * (5500 / 1000) * $0.12 = $0.50

- Mash: 90 minute mash at 5% power usage = (90 / 60) * 0.05 * (5500 / 1000) * $0.12 = $0.05

- Mash-out: 20 minutes at 100% power usage = (20 / 60) * 1 * (5500 / 1000) * $0.12 = $0.22

- Sparge: Heating elements not used, minimal power usage.

- Bring to boil: 23 minutes at 100% power usage = (23 / 60) * 1 * (5500 / 1000) * $0.12 = $0.25

- Boil: 60 minutes at 85% power usage = (60 / 60) * 0.85 * (5500 / 1000) * $0.12 = $0.56

- Chill: Heating elements not used, minimal power usage.

While the pumps and the control panel are run for many hours throughout the brew day, they only add a few pennies to the overall cost given their extremely low power consumption.

Feel free to plug in your own numbers for a rough estimate.

Kal

 

[Frymn1969]

Kal,

Just wanting to confirm my math is correct. Based on the above calculations I come up with a total of 11.31 kWh's to brew a 10 gallon batch. Is this correct?

 

[kal]

Close, but doesn't seem right. Spending $1.60 at a rate of $0.12 per kW/h means that you used 1.60/0.12 = 13.3 kW.

Kal

 

[Frymn1969]

Although I'm still leaning heavily towards all electro for its consistency and since I'm probably only brewing every other week. But I will point out that 13 kWh is more than baseline allotment with Southern California Edison. Which means that any additional use that day is putting you into tier 4 at $.28 a kWh. Granted it would average out over the billing cycle. However if I brewed often enough it would make a big difference. Do you brew in the morning hours when their is less draw on the grid, more efficient use of electricity, therefore costing less?

 

[kal]

Although I'm still leaning heavily towards all electro for its consistency and since I'm probably only brewing every other week. But I will point out that 13 kWh is more than baseline allotment with Southern California Edison. Which means that any additional use that day is putting you into tier 4 at $.28 a kWh. Granted it would average out over the billing cycle. However if I brewed often enough it would make a big difference.

But probably still cheaper than $10-$20 worth of propane every time you brew, no?

Propane or any sort of gas that heats from underneath on the outside is so inefficient as most of the heat (50-80%) just bounces off and goes up in the air. An electric element submersed in the liquid is close to 100% efficient. This is why a 5500W heating element producing ~20,000 BTUs of heat outperforms a 80,000 BTU propane burner.

Then there are all the other advantages too of course of electric over gas:

- Easier precise control of temperature.

- Safer for indoor brewing: No poisonous gases, no emissions. Brewing indoors with gas requires more than 10 times the ventilation, making installation very costly (more info/breakdown). If you want to brew to safely (to code) indoors with gas you will likely have to spend more on the ventilation setup than the entire brewing setup. I get emails almost every day from from small startup nano breweries (1-3bbl) that tell me exactly this... that they were planning on a gas setup but can't afford the ventilation system that their inspector requires, so they're looking at electric instead.

- Absolutely silent: The bigger gas burners required for brewing sound like jet engines.

- No tanks to refill.

- Cheaper to run: In most locations the cost to brew with natural gas is 2-3 times higher than electricity, while propane is 5-10 times higher. (Not sure about California - what's a tank of propane cost there?)

Do you brew in the morning hours when their is less draw on the grid, more efficient use of electricity, therefore costing less?

No. I don't pay attention to time of day at all. Even the highest rate here in Ontario ($0.129 on-peak vs $0.072 off-peak), the cost difference is only going to be a dollar or two per brew session. I brew once a month on average. I brew whenever's convenient for me which does happen to be mostly off-peak, but I don't do it to save money. Saving $1-2/month on brewing is an insignificant cost for me compared to everything else I pay for in brewing. Changing my brewing habits to save the equivalent cost of an ounce or so of hops doesn't make sense to me when I'm brewing an IIPA with 20+ oz of hops.

Kal

 

[Frymn1969]

https://www.facebook.com/Electriccitybrewery

Nearby...

 

[sonex]

electricity will almost always be cheaper just because of how much more efficient the elements are being in direct contact with the wort. Burns are very inefficient just because a very large percentage of the potential BTU's rolling out from under the pot and ends up heating the surrounding air. It all comes down to which way more effectively delivers its potential energy.

 

[Frymn1969]

Kal,

For a 50A panel we have four lines (2hots, 1 Neutral, 1 common) in right?

Would it be possible to use a DIN mounted breaker panel (2-25's, 2-15's) after the bus in lieu of the power in contractor 50A/250VAC Coil? I've seen another wiring diagram that uses this method and would like to hear your thoughts.
Todd

 

[kal]

For a 50A panel we have four lines (2hots, 1 Neutral, 1 common) in right?

The ones I've designed use 2 HOT, 1 NEUTRAL, and 1 GROUND. You don't need the neutral if you don't have any 120V devices. Depends on how you design it.

Would it be possible to use a DIN mounted breaker panel (2-25's, 2-15's) after the bus in lieu of the power in contractor 50A/250VAC Coil? I've seen another wiring diagram that uses this method and would like to hear your thoughts.

Afraid I don't understand what you're asking. (breaker panel instead of a contractor). Can you post a schematic or diagram?

Kal

 

[augiedoggy]

The ones I've designed use 2 HOT, 1 NEUTRAL, and 1 GROUND. You don't need the neutral if you don't have any 120V devices. Depends on how you design it.


Afraid I don't understand what you're asking. (breaker panel instead of a contractor). Can you post a schematic or diagram?

Kal

he wants to mount breakers in the control panel instead of switch activated contacter relays to switch power... you could do it but a switch and relays preventing two elements from running at once is better if you have only a 30a line.

 

[kal]

I don't understand. You can't replace contactors with breakers. They serve completely different purposes.

Kal

 

[Frymn1969]

 

[Bsquared]

the circuit breakers in this diagram do not replace the contractors or (solid state relay) SSR, they are protection for the element in this configuration as I understand it. If you trace out the two hot legs ( red and Blue) the red leg is controlled by the SSR , and the SSR is controlled by the PID. The blue leg is controlled by the 30A contactor, and the contactor is controlled by the green selector switched.

 

[schematix]

the circuit breakers in this diagram do not replace the contractors or (solid state relay) SSR, they are protection for the element in this configuration as I understand it. If you trace out the two hot legs ( red and Blue) the red leg is controlled by the SSR , and the SSR is controlled by the PID. The blue leg is controlled by the 30A contactor, and the contactor is controlled by the green selector switched.

Circuit breakers don't protect devices, they protect the wire. Chances are very high that if you have a short, your device is already ruined anyways. A shorted SSR will get smoked before the CB even opens. A shorted wire will heat above the annealing point fairly quickly, at which point it's physical properties are permanently changed.

If you have a device that frequently gets shorted you can get special semiconductor based fuses that will open in micro seconds instead of milliseconds.

 

[Bsquared]

Circuit breakers don't protect devices, they protect the wire. Chances are very high that if you have a short, your device is already ruined anyways. A shorted SSR will get smoked before the CB even opens. A shorted wire will heat above the annealing point fairly quickly, at which point it's physical properties are permanently changed.

If you have a device that frequently gets shorted you can get special semiconductor based fuses that will open in micro seconds instead of milliseconds.

Thanks that makes sense.

I guess thats why you run a fuse that is below the amperage of the circuit breaker but above the amperage of the device the circuit is running, so the fuse in the protection for the device. That sound about right?

 

[Frymn1969]

Thanks for the responses guys. Although electrical is a foreign language to me I appreciate the input. I'm thinking I'll just buy Kal's book and build it out according to that since plenty of folks have without issue. The only system feature his design doesn't have that I want is a E-Stop.