eHerms - low efficiency

[bornandraisedlv]

It's possible it will work but I do feel it won't hold at a consistent temp. I would recommend you stick with the traditional method of just controlling the hlt temp. You can just set the hlt higher than desired mash temp to compensate for slower flow or if you have a shorter herms coil. Although I can't say for certain as I have mine setup to avoid all that stuff I imagine the offset required is generally the same so after a few tries you should be dialed in and never have to fiddle again. cheers

I will just give that a go then. It seems that in general it’s a 3°-5° offset.

Thanks again.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

So here is an update:

Brewed this last night:
11lb 12oz pale malt
1 lb 2 oz Munich 10L
8oz carafoam
8oz crystal 60L
8oz melanoiden

Crushed in my new mill at .35
What a difference in crush compared to my lhbs!


Put 4.75 gallons of hot, from the tap, water into my mash tun and filled my hlt with hot, from the tap, water. Then ran my pump until I was at my strike temp and mashed in.

Then brought the controller temp down to 154° in order to keep the mash at 150°. Ran the control probe for my element in my HLT. I had to overshoot the temp by 4° but was able to maintain the 150° throughout the 1 hour mash.

At the end of mash, instead of draining the first runnings like I had been doing I sparged on top of the mash.

Ended up with a 78% mash efficiency with an estimated 81% according to Beersmith. I did take a refractometer reading of the first running and it was at 1.076. I finished at 1.054 instead of the estimated 1.057. So I have made some progress here.

I also took a reading of the wort coming out of my tun at the end of the sparge, which took about 45 mins to collect just under 7.5 gallons, and it was 1.015 so very small amounts of sugar left.

Not sure where in my process I can improve or tweak to squeeze a little more out but I’m happy with those results.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Just kind of reflecting back on my last brew day process and my mash/recirc process has me wondering.

My wort level was never over my grain bed, more like right at the top of it or even just below, this has been the case with all of my mashed since moving to this herms set up.

I had a total of 14.25 lbs of grain and mashed in with 4.75 gallons, 1.33 qt per pound of grain. I’m using a Tall Boy 10gal kettle that is 16.75” tall with an ID of 13.75.

Not sure if I should just increase my mash in volume to adjust for the take up of my herms coil and hoses and then sparge the same amount and adjust boil time. Or am I over complicating the process?

Also rethinking my false bottom set up specifically with fly sparging. My current false is one of the convex style ones out there and leaves about 3” in diameter between the outer most edge of the false and the inner wall of my tun. That leave a fair amount of grain that’s not directly draining through the false and might leave me open to channeling even at a slow rate. Thinking of changing to something that will cover the entire bottom of my tun with minimal dead space.

 

[Blazinlow86]

One thing I'll add. Don't chase efficiency as it's the least important thing imho. Repeatability is key . Its been a really long time since I had to setup my equipment profile but you need to make sure you have your boiloff and dead space all sorted. Then if you're always coming up short on your gravity you adjust your Brewhouse eff lower until you hit your numbers. Took me a few brews but I always hit my numbers now. Again it's been a long time so someone may correct me. Cheers

 

[bornandraisedlv]

One thing I'll add. Don't chase efficiency as it's the least important thing imho. Repeatability is key . Its been a really long time since I had to setup my equipment profile but you need to make sure you have your boiloff and dead space all sorted. Then if you're always coming up short on your gravity you adjust your Brewhouse eff lower until you hit your numbers. Took me a few brews but I always hit my numbers now. Again it's been a long time so someone may correct me. Cheers

Thanks for the input, and agreed on chasing efficiency. But also want to make sure I’ve set myself up for success.

This has kind of moved off topic of my original post and probably out of the scope of what this forum is intended for.

Thanks again for the info

 

[Blazinlow86]

Cheers and good luck in your future brews

 

[boilerbrad]

My wort level was never over my grain bed, more like right at the top of it or even just below, this has been the case with all of my mashed since moving to this herms set up.

I had a total of 14.25 lbs of grain and mashed in with 4.75 gallons, 1.33 qt per pound of grain. I’m using a Tall Boy 10gal kettle that is 16.75” tall with an ID of 13.75.

Not sure if I should just increase my mash in volume to adjust for the take up of my herms coil and hoses and then sparge the same amount and adjust boil time. Or am I over complicating the process?

I'm in the same boat as you regarding low efficiency on a new e-herms system. Thanks for posting and the follow-ups. They really helped me brainstorm ways that I might be screwing it up. Regarding your wort level, I've been told you want at least an inch of wort on top of the grain bed. I'd be willing to bet your mash tun dead space, hoses, coil, and pump are to blame for the lack of wort on top of the bed. If you can measure the volume of water in your kettle, you can use your pump and valves to easily figure the volume in your hose, pump, and coil. The volume in the false bottom is a different story and may require algebra or an educated guess to determine. Take the number you get from these calculations and add it to your 1.33 qt/lb volume. Or, enter it in your profile in beersmith and let it tell you what to do.

Anecdotally, I used distilled water in my last brew and adjusted with salts per the new water profile tools in beersmith 3. Not sure if it was the water, but my efficiency increased to something a little more reasonable. I was using softened water with only acidic ph adjustments previously. I sent the softened water to Ward and found that it is still as hard as a rock. My bicarbonate levels are way too high to brew anything light. I'll be lugging distilled water downstairs until I can get an RO system and a large storage tank. $$$

 

[augiedoggy]

Just kind of reflecting back on my last brew day process and my mash/recirc process has me wondering.

My wort level was never over my grain bed, more like right at the top of it or even just below, this has been the case with all of my mashed since moving to this herms set up.

I had a total of 14.25 lbs of grain and mashed in with 4.75 gallons, 1.33 qt per pound of grain. I’m using a Tall Boy 10gal kettle that is 16.75” tall with an ID of 13.75.

Not sure if I should just increase my mash in volume to adjust for the take up of my herms coil and hoses and then sparge the same amount and adjust boil time. Or am I over complicating the process?

Also rethinking my false bottom set up specifically with fly sparging. My current false is one of the convex style ones out there and leaves about 3” in diameter between the outer most edge of the false and the inner wall of my tun. That leave a fair amount of grain that’s not directly draining through the false and might leave me open to channeling even at a slow rate. Thinking of changing to something that will cover the entire bottom of my tun with minimal dead space.

you are overthinking it... as long as theres enough water to cover the grainbed, go with the normally recommended amount... if the grainbed is not covered add more water to do so. this is what I do with my 3 vessel rims and average 91% efficiency regardless of the extra quart or 2 and if its needed.

 

[sicktght311]

As i've come to realize over the year and a half with my system, water volumes during mashing and sparging have little effect on efficiency. Just as long as you keep the grain bed covered, and never let it dry out, and your flow throught he grainbed is good, you shouldnt see any major drops in efficiency. No matter how much water i use as strike water, whether its thick or thin mash, (and i just adjust it really by eye at this point), i always get the exact repeatable efficiency every time.

 

[augiedoggy]

I feel like a broken record bringing it up over and over but the biggest obstacle I see causing lower efficiency on a recirculating system is channeling... Which is remedied by recirculating at a lower flow rate. too often I hear of people trying to recirculate as fast as possible or way too fast thinking its somehow going to improve the temp regulation. with a herms you can set the flow as little as 1-2gpm and still hold temps as well as stepmash fine and your going to get higher efficiency due to less compacting of the grainbed.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I feel like a broken record bringing it up over and over but the biggest obstacle I see causing lower efficiency on a recirculating system is channeling... Which is remedied by recirculating at a lower flow rate. too often I hear of people trying to recirculate as fast as possible or way too fast thinking its somehow going to improve the temp regulation. with a herms you can set the flow as little as 1-2gpm and still hold temps as well as stepmash fine and your going to get higher efficiency due to less compacting of the grainbed.

Background: I'm setting up an 5 gal eHERMS and I have a digital flow meter. My pump circulates water through all the fittings at a maximum rate of 4gpm. I condition my grain, and I'm considering using rice hulls.

Questions:
Do you suggest starting the flow pretty low after dough-in and gradually ramping the flow, or does that not matter too much? Would this help set the grain bed?
What do you think about increasing the flow rate while stepping? How much is too much? I know it's probably system-dependent but any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Blazinlow86]

I feel like a broken record bringing it up over and over but the biggest obstacle I see causing lower efficiency on a recirculating system is channeling... Which is remedied by recirculating at a lower flow rate. too often I hear of people trying to recirculate as fast as possible or way too fast thinking its somehow going to improve the temp regulation. with a herms you can set the flow as little as 1-2gpm and still hold temps as well as stepmash fine and your going to get higher efficiency due to less compacting of the grainbed.

Another broken record here. I agree with augie that channeling is a problem on recirculating systems and can cause poor efficiency and add abit to it. I brew on a Kal clone and like most herms users I heat my MLT using the Herms coil and adjust my process depending on the grist/ recirculation rate I choose and neither method gives a noticible increase in efficiency because im avoiding channeling by adjusting my grist. If I mill loosely I won't have to circulate slowly to avoid channeling and therefore I can mash in at my desired mash temp with only a 1-2 minute drop in temp once adding the grain making the process abit easier. Alternatively if I mill tightly and therefore have to recirculate slowly I also have to overshoot the mlt/ hlt temp to compensate for the Mash temp dropping once the grains added as a typical non recirculating brewer would. I then additionally need to wait until the hlt temp drops before I can start circulating again which on my setup takes about 20 mins. With a rims setup you won't need to worry about this. Cheers

 

[augiedoggy]

Background: I'm setting up an 5 gal eHERMS and I have a digital flow meter. My pump circulates water through all the fittings at a maximum rate of 4gpm. I condition my grain, and I'm considering using rice hulls.

Questions:
Do you suggest starting the flow pretty low after dough-in and gradually ramping the flow, or does that not matter too much? Would this help set the grain bed?
What do you think about increasing the flow rate while stepping? How much is too much? I know it's probably system-dependent but any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

well I brew on two systems... the false bottom in my 3bble mash tun is 29" in diameter and I recirculate at no more than 5gpm and usually about 4gpm... at home I start the mash at about 1gpm and over the course of about 2-3minutes I slowly bring it up to a max of 1.8gpm (15" diameter false bottom) this nets my 86% efficiency on the 3bbl and 91% efficiency on the 10 gallon... now I use rice hulls on the 3bbl but not the 10 gallon and never have conditioned or adusted my gap... I have my home mill at 1.030 and the one at the brewpub is like 1.040 speeding up the flow for step mashing is not worth it. Even at 2gpm your still recirculating the whole mash through the herms or rims in like 5 mins..

 

[Blazinlow86]

Background: I'm setting up an 5 gal eHERMS and I have a digital flow meter. My pump circulates water through all the fittings at a maximum rate of 4gpm. I condition my grain, and I'm considering using rice hulls.

Questions:
Do you suggest starting the flow pretty low after dough-in and gradually ramping the flow, or does that not matter too much? Would this help set the grain bed?
What do you think about increasing the flow rate while stepping? How much is too much? I know it's probably system-dependent but any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

It's your dough in process that matters for the flow rate on a herms setup as the hlt causes some specific limitations that aren't there on a rims set-up like I believe Augie uses. Are you planning to heat the strike water to your desired mash temp then dough in and use the herms to maintain that temp or are you planning to overheat your strike water so after dough in your mash settles at the desired temp without using the herms? If you choose method one you will need to be able to circulate faster immediately to avoid your mash temp being lower than desired for considerable amounts of time and that will require a course mill setting to avoid channeling. Method 2 avoids needing to circulate quickly from the beginning but requires waiting for the hlt to cool down before you can start your circulating which also takes considerable time depending on your process. Keep in mind this only applies when using a Herms and not if your using a rims setup. With a rims setup higher flow rate aren't required. Cheers

 

[augiedoggy]

It's your dough in process that matters for the flow rate on a herms setup as the hlt causes some specific limitations that aren't there on a rims set-up like I believe Augie uses. Are you planning to heat the strike water to your desired mash temp then dough in and use the herms to maintain that temp or are you planning to overheat your strike water so after dough in your mash settles at the desired temp without using the herms? If you choose method one you will need to be able to circulate faster immediately to avoid your mash temp being lower than desired for considerable amounts of time and that will require a course mill setting to avoid channeling. Method 2 avoids needing to circulate quickly from the beginning but requires waiting for the hlt to cool down before you can start your circulating which also takes considerable time depending on your process. Keep in mind this only applies when using a Herms and not if your using a rims setup. With a rims setup higher flow rate aren't required. Cheers

I believe most with a 3 vessel herms choose to heat their strike water in the adjacent BK to avoid these limitations but I could be wrong

 

[Blazinlow86]

I believe most with a 3 vessel herms choose to heat their strike water in the adjacent BK to avoid these limitations but I could be wrong

Great point and a great option if you have a 50amp back to back setup or are on gas but from the time I spent on kals site when I built my system majority only have a 30 amp setup that can only fire the hlt or bk one at a time and therefore can't really do that. Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

Are you planning to heat the strike water to your desired mash temp then dough in and use the herms to maintain that temp or are you planning to overheat your strike water so after dough in your mash settles at the desired temp without using the herms?

Indeed I will be "over-heating" the strike water in the kettle (using propane) to achieve mash temp immediately upon dough-in. The water in my HLT will be heated separately to the desired mash temp (using electric).
I don't sparge, so the HLT will only need a small amount of water.

I'm using a stainless CFC as the heat exchanger, with a RIMS tube and PID heating the water going into it.

 

[doug293cz]

Background: I'm setting up an 5 gal eHERMS and I have a digital flow meter. My pump circulates water through all the fittings at a maximum rate of 4gpm. I condition my grain, and I'm considering using rice hulls.

Questions:
Do you suggest starting the flow pretty low after dough-in and gradually ramping the flow, or does that not matter too much? Would this help set the grain bed?
What do you think about increasing the flow rate while stepping? How much is too much? I know it's probably system-dependent but any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

If you increase the flow rate, you run the risk of establishing channels in the grain bed. Once you establish channels, slowing the flow rate back down will not eliminate the channels. You would have to stir the mash, and then reset the grain bed to get rid of the channels.

Brew on

 

[Blazinlow86]

Indeed I will be "over-heating" the strike water in the kettle (using propane) to achieve mash temp immediately upon dough-in. The water in my HLT will be heated separately to the desired mash temp (using electric).
I don't sparge, so the HLT will only need a small amount of water.

I'm using a stainless CFC as the heat exchanger, with a RIMS tube and PID heating the water going into it.

Disregard what I suggested in that case. I assumed you were using a electric setup. Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you increase the flow rate, you run the risk of establishing channels in the grain bed. Once you establish channels, slowing the flow rate back down will not eliminate the channels. You would have to stir the mash, and then reset the grain bed to get rid of the channels.

Brew on

That makes sense.
What would you say is a reasonable maximum flow rate to avoid channeling for a normal gravity 5 gal batch, full volume mash (~8 gal strike water), 12" false bottom?

I don't know how I would know if there's channeling going on. I should track my efficiency, maximum flow rate, and other variables to try to find the efficiency sweet spot for my system?

Disregard what I suggested in that case. I assumed you were using a electric setup. Cheers

It's all good, thanks anyway. Maybe I shouldn't call it eHERMS if I also use propane (although not during the mash). ?

 

[doug293cz]

That makes sense.
What would you say is a reasonable maximum flow rate to avoid channeling for a normal gravity 5 gal batch, full volume mash (~8 gal strike water), 12" false bottom?

I don't know how I would know if there's channeling going on. I should track my efficiency, maximum flow rate, and other variables to try to find the efficiency sweet spot for my system?

It's all good, thanks anyway. Maybe I shouldn't call it eHERMS if I also use propane (although not during the mash). ?

Max flow rate is going to depend on the grain bill make-up, fineness of crush, grain bed depth, MLT cross section area, etc. You really have to determine what works for your system. I wish I knew a simple way to determine when channeling was initiated. Tracking both conversion and lauter efficiency is the best way to go, but will take multiple batches to narrow down.

Brew on

 

[Blazinlow86]

That makes sense.
What would you say is a reasonable maximum flow rate to avoid channeling for a normal gravity 5 gal batch, full volume mash (~8 gal strike water), 12" false bottom?

I don't know how I would know if there's channeling going on. I should track my efficiency, maximum flow rate, and other variables to try to find the efficiency sweet spot for my system?

It's all good, thanks anyway. Maybe I shouldn't call it eHERMS if I also use propane (although not during the mash). ?

If you have a sight glass on your mlt the level will drop when you start circulating if your flow rate is to fast for your grist etc. Obviously this isn't a very scientific way but it will get you in the ballpark and avoid channeling/ compacting the grain bed. As Augie mentioned with your process you won't need much flow to maintain your temp . Should be smooth sailing. Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

Tracking both conversion and lauter efficiency is the best way to go, but will take multiple batches to narrow down.

Conversion efficiency would be the best indicator, right?

I'm not sure channeling would affect lautering efficiency for no-sparge. Or not very much?

Should be smooth sailing.

Thanks, I hope so.

I don't have a sight gauge, so that's not an option for me.

 

[doug293cz]

Conversion efficiency would be the best indicator, right?

I'm not sure channeling would affect lautering efficiency for no-sparge. Or not very much?

Thanks, I hope so.

I don't have a sight gauge, so that's not an option for me.

Conversion efficiency is a good metric. And no, channeling will not affect lauter efficiency for no-sparge or batch sparge, as long as the mash is stirred well prior to each run-off.

Brew on

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks everyone, sounds like a plan.

 

[Bobby_M]

Indeed I will be "over-heating" the strike water in the kettle (using propane) to achieve mash temp immediately upon dough-in. The water in my HLT will be heated separately to the desired mash temp (using electric).
I don't sparge, so the HLT will only need a small amount of water.

I'm using a stainless CFC as the heat exchanger, with a RIMS tube and PID heating the water going into it.

There's another method many people overlook. Fill your HLT to the top of the HERMS coil and fill the MLT with the exact strike volume you need. Fire the system up with an HLT target only 3F above mash target. The strike will heat up through the HERMS and the MLT will be perfectly preheated. This puts the HLT at the right temp for mash recirc. You can get up and running 100% on electric. Even though it will take longer to heat, it's hands off so go eat breakfast.

 

[Blazinlow86]

There's another method many people overlook. Fill your HLT to the top of the HERMS coil and fill the MLT with the exact strike volume you need. Fire the system up with an HLT target only 3F above mash target. The strike will heat up through the HERMS and the MLT will be perfectly preheated. This puts the HLT at the right temp for mash recirc. You can get up and running 100% on electric. Even though it will take longer to heat, it's hands off so go eat breakfast.

This is the method I typically use however on my set-up this method requires a faster flow rate to quickly overcome the initial temp drop when the grain is added. If I mill tightly at say .030 I can't flow fast enough without channeling/ compacting the grain bed. I find .040 works best with this method as well as using rice hulls with anything sticky. I have everything setup the night before and my wife just turns the key on the panel on her way out to work and when I wake up around 9 I'm ready to just dough in and can then go back upstairs to make breakfast, shower etc until the mash is done. Cheers

 

[augiedoggy]

Great point and a great option if you have a 50amp back to back setup or are on gas but from the time I spent on kals site when I built my system majority only have a 30 amp setup that can only fire the hlt or bk one at a time and therefore can't really do that. Cheers

This is a good point. I also have a 30a setup only with a rims and in my setup this limitation doesnt exist because of careful sizing of elements, which is worth mentioning for those still looking and comparing rims vs herms.

 

[sicktght311]

For the record, i've set my mill gap at .48 with my herms system and have found NO drop in efficiency, but all the world of difference in both flow rates and lack of stuck mash/sparge, no matter how much adjuncts i use. I am consistenly 70% efficiency when i use Viking 2-row, and 75% when i'm using Briess 2-row