Efficiency help again

[nconform]

My fellow brewing brethren, I need your help once again. I have been brewing all grain now for about 9 months and for the life of me am still struggling to hit my numbers. I will go into all the details below but I am consistently checking my pre-boil and post boil readings and always off from what I should be hitting in beersmith. The highest efficiency I have had to date is about 67%. The beers come out good which is nice but the fact that my efficiency numbers are always shy of what they should be has frustrated me beyond belief.

Here was my most recent recipe and how it was performed:

I made a pale ale, but really pushed the numbers on this one

9lbs. US 2-Row
1lb. White Wheat Malt
14 oz Carapils
8oz Flaked Oats
4oz Victory Malt
1oz Centennial at 10min
1oz Citra at 5 min
2oz Cascade at Flameout
1oz Citra at Flameout, both flameout additions whirlpooled for 30 mins
Wyeast British ale, made to an .85 liter starter
dry hopping after 10 days of fermentation

I prepped the water using Bru'n Water's profile for pale ale. I have had my water tested by ward labs so I used beermsith to find the right additions. According to Bru'n water my mash Ph should be around 5.4.
I milled my own grains and double crushed with a monster mill 3.
Grains were added to mash tun, which is a cylindrical igloo cooler with false bottom, and mashed at 148 degrees for 75 mins. I did not pre-heat the mash tun. I mixed mash once and temp seemed to drop a little so I added hot water to raise temp up. I'm considering getting a digital thermometer to double check temps even though I calibrate thermometers in ice water before each brew. After time was up I attempted to mash out for the first time. I had never mashed out before, just had always lautered upon ending time. I unfortunately did not have enough water to raise mash to 170, so the mash was only raised to about 160. I lautered then batch sparged twice making sure the mash temp was 168 after sparge water was added. After each sparging i let the mash sit for 15 mins in the water. I once again had another error after my last sparge addition, I added too much water and only lautered about half of the water out otherwise I would have had too much water for my boil. Any of these errors significant enough to give me a 50% mash efficiency? After I lautered the wort out I began the 60 min boil. I also collected a sample of the wort to test with refractometer and hydrometer. After allowing the wort to reach appropriate temps for my devices I came up with the same reading, 1.039. My target was 1.054. According to beermsith my mash efficiency was 46%, damn. I did the boil as usual, whirlpooled, cooled with an immerison chiller, aerated and the transferred to fermenter. My gravity going into fermenter was 1.056. Pitched yeast and now I wait. Could my errors have created such a low efficiency? I am doing five gallon batches and mashing in a 10 gallon cooler, any issues there? I am just at a loss right now, I continue to investigate and the knowledge I have gotten here from posts and responses has been invaluable but I need to conquer this issue. I usually don't have issues with water additions but for the first time mashing out it didn't go as well. I know that you are essentially rinsing the grains when sparging but if you overshoot the water on the last sparge can that have a huge effect? As always any help is appreciated.

 

[Build]

Sorry to hear that. You can get those numbers up, no problem. How much did you overshoot the water on the last one? Are you sure your temp is 148F? If you were actually at say 146F, you'll get very different numbers. It takes a long long time for starch to gelatinize below 147F, and the mash should probably be closer to 90 minutes if you're mashing below 150F and want higher numbers.

 

[nconform]

You know even with the calibration at the beginning I still feel I want to get a digital to double check. I'm glad you mentioned the temperature piece because I can be a lot more vigilant with that now knowing that a few degrees has a large impact. As far as the last Sparge, it was a big overshoot, by a a gallon, I think I did that because I wanted the mash to reach 170 but in hindsight I know I didn't need that much now. You live and you learn. Thanks for the info!

 

[A2HB]

How long is it taking you to do your batch sparging? I usually let the first addition sit for about 45 min before I do a vourlouf and drain, then I let the second batch sparge addition sit another 15-20 min before I repeat the process again. From everything I've read your sparging process should be at least 1 hour to get good efficiency. One other thing is for your mashout try to shoot for 190-200 degree water, that will get your mash temp up no matter how low it is. Other than those two things, everything else in your process sounds good.

 

[nolasuperbass]

+1 on taking your time with the run-off and sparge. You need at least an hour or your efficiency will suffer. Also, if you haven't calibrated your mill, you might want to get a feeler gauge. Gap setting definitely influences efficiency. I got mine online from sears. I set my gap to .034" and I get a consistent 82% efficiency in my cooler MTL.

 

[brew_darrymore]

What was your original and what was your measured pre-boil volume? I have the feeling that 1.039 pre-boil gravity reflects much higher efficiency than the one BS is calculating.

Overshooting your sparge water by a gallon will dilute the wort quite a bit, 5-6 gravity points according to my calculations.

Can you post your volumes?

 

[nconform]

With my mill I set it to .40 with a feeler gauge which is what monster mill recommended. Any suggestions there for gap? My original volume was 3.75 gal strike water, the added maybe a quart to reach mash temp, added a quart more after. My Sparge was 4 gal. I usually shoot for 4 and keep an eye on my sight gauge to see how much Sparge water I need but I def overshot by adding all water. In addition to all of this 1.5 gal was added for mash out to try and reach the 170.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

The short answer is you have two possible sources: Conversion efficiency (mashing issues) or lauter efficiency (sparging issues). Without more info, and the proper measurements, there's no way to tell which one (or both) is to blame.

How EXACTLY are you sparging? Batch sparge? Stirring? Fly sparging? Pour over? How long? details details details.

.40 is actually pretty coarse IMO, I'd tighten that up a bit.

More info http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/methods/Efficiency

 

[Build]

I think there's part of the problem. The gap .040 seems way too course. I do .030 with biab and .032-.034 with other setup. You'd be surprised how much crush can make a difference in efficiency.

 

[McKnuckle]

My Schmidling Malt Mill has a fixed gap of 0.045" and I routinely get 77-79% mash efficiency with no-sparge BIAB. The gap of 0.04" is not causing your problem.

Personally, I get the sense you don't totally have a grip on your water volumes yet. Too much dilution during the sparge is a very easy way to bugger your expected pre-boil gravity.

 

[jmitchell3]

so i ran some math (yay for math! ugh):

11.6 lb * 38 ppg max extract (est) = 441 potential extract points​

you used 4.25 gal of mash water (3.75 + 2 quarts), 4 gallons of initial sparge water, plus 1.5 additional gallons for a total of 9.75 gallons.

Agree with Darrymore...what was your preboil volume? By the math, grain absorption should be about 1.4 gallons, plus your mashtun will have deadspace, I'm guessing a quart. so we're looking at an estimated preboil volume of maybe 8 gallons? With that your total mash efficiency would have been:

39*8 = 312 / 441 = 70.7%​

71% isn't horrible, and the improving your crush from your present .040" gap will likely improve it further. Again, since we don't know your cooler deadspace or preboil volume, can't do an effective calculation so these are my own estimates!

 

[jmitchell3]

My Schmidling Malt Mill has a fixed gap of 0.045" and I routinely get 77-79% mash efficiency with no-sparge BIAB. The gap of 0.04" is not causing your problem.

Personally, I get the sense you don't totally have a grip on your water volumes yet. Too much dilution during the sparge is a very easy way to bugger your expected pre-boil gravity.

I humbly disagree.

I'm pretty certain the type of mill used will have an impact on the crush of any given gap size. My buddy has a 3 roller mill which does a super fine crush at .040, while my BarleyCrusher mill at .040 is way too coarse.

 

[McKnuckle]

Well I didn't consider the type of mill - just the gap measurement. If that makes a difference, then all bets are off. Only a picture of the crush would help us ascertain what's being used.

 

[doug293cz]

To expand on what @pricelessbrewing said: Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. You could be having incomplete conversion, inefficient lautering, or both. The only way to know is to measure your conversion efficiency. It turns out that the maximum possible SG of the wort in the mash, and first runnings, is dependent only on the mash thickness (qt/lb.) Kai Troester gives a table of max SG vs. mash thickness here. Your conversion efficiency is then:

Conversion Efficiency = 100% * (Actual Mash SG - 1) / (Maximum Mash SG -1)​

The mash thickness is based on all water added prior to taking the SG reading, not just initial strike water.

Once you have determined your conversion efficiency and mash efficiency, you can calculate your lauter efficiency as:

Lauter Efficiency = 100% * Mash Efficiency / Conversion Efficiency​

Maximum lauter efficiency for batch sparging can be calculated based on grain bill, strike water volume, sparge water volume(s), grain absorption, and undrainable MLT volume. The Priceless BIAB Calculator will do the calculation for a single batch sparge, and the lauter efficiency for a multiple batch sparge should exceed the single batch sparge efficiency.

Ignore the comments about needing long times for batch sparging, as they are incorrect. Long sparges are only beneficial when fly sparging. The important thing in batch sparging is to make sure the mash is well mixed prior to each vorlauf and run off. For maximum efficiency, you want the concentration of the wort uniform throughout the mash (you don't want concentrated wort in or on the surface of the grits.)

Also mash out and hot sparge water are not required when batch sparging, assuming you have reached close to 100% conversion efficiency. If your conversion is low, then a mash out and/or hot sparge water may effectively extend the mash time allowing more conversion to occur. Make sure conversion is complete, and you don't have to worry about mash out or sparge temperature (although using hot sparge water will allow you to reach boil faster.) Finer crushes promote higher conversion, as finer grits convert faster than larger grits. Low temp mashes take longer to complete than high temp mashes. Measure your mash SG vs. the target SG to determine mash completeness, rather than blindly assuming a certain amount of time is adequate.

Based on your posts you started with 11.625 lb of grain, strike water totaled 3.75 + 0.5 = 4.25 gal, and you intended to do 2X 2 gal batch sparges, but used 4 gal in the second sparge and only ran off 2 gal. Is this correct? Assuming it is, I simulated your mash process and came up with the following.

For 100% conversion efficiency:

Pre-Boil SG = 1.051
Lauter Efficiency = 90.4%
Mash Efficiency =90.4%​

For 1.039 pre-boil SG:

Conversion Efficiency = 74.5%
Lauter Efficiency = 91.5%
Mash Efficiency = 68.2%​

The simulation assumes that your mash was at equilibrium prior to each run off. If this wasn't the case, then the actual lauter efficiencies would be lower than simulated.

But it does appear that your conversion efficiency may have been quite low, so I suggest you focus on that using the methods outlined earlier in my post.

Edit: Note that for accurate efficiency calculations, accurate water and wort volume measurements, and grain weight measurements are critical. Volume measurements taken above room temp should be adjusted for thermal expansion back to room temp volumes before calculating efficiencies.

Brew on

 

[nconform]

Thanks for all the information! In regards to my pre-boil volume it was about 6.25 gallons. My issue here was I sparged too much water on my 2nd run in the tun due to wanting to make sure I hit the right mash temperature and had a lot left over. I knew I needed about 6.25 gallons in my kettle for proper boil off rate and fermenter volume. When I batch sparged I did it in 2 amounts, The first amount was about 1.5 gallons and the last round I poured the rest of my water which was about 2.5 gallons in. I overcompensated a little as when I added the first amount of batch water I was only at about 4.75 gallons in the kettle so I knew needed more and got a little overzealous with it. My last sparge was the moment I added to much so I wasn't able to fully drain all the wort out. Generally it takes me about 20 mins to vorlauf. I am just sparging from a pot directly into tun, not fly sparging. I'd like to get more comfortable using those formulas as of right now I am just basing it off what the program tells me.

 

[eric19312]

First - not sure why you are doing a mash out. I don't think they are useful at the lower end of mash temperature range. More needed when you mash high with intent of creating a lot of unfermentable sugars.

Second - how aggressively are you stirring your sparge water into the grain bed. My efficiency in batch sparge went up a lot when I listened to Yooper in here telling people to get in there and "stir it like it owes you money!" 5-10 min vigorous stirring isn't too much.

Also I did pretty good batch sparging with only one sparge. Usually about 75% efficiency. Worked the water volume out to give half my kettle volume from first runnings and second half the volume out from second runnings. Smaller beers this involved a water addition to the mash before collecting first runnings. Can be hot/boiling water for a mashout but not necessary. But did need to stir it in good...

 

[pricelessbrewing]

First - not sure why you are doing a mash out. I don't think they are useful at the lower end of mash temperature range. More needed when you mash high with intent of creating a lot of unfermentable sugars.

No. Mashouts are needed when doing a long fly sparge where the conversion may still be occurring, particularly with a low diastic mash (rarely an issue) or poor crush where fermentability may increase further during the extended sparging process. For nosparge or batch sparging, it doesn't really serve a purpose

 

[Gameface]

Leaving wort in the mash tun cost you a lot of efficiency points. I'm not too big on the math there, but you don't need to crunch the numbers to know that there was sugar in that wort and it didn't go into your boil kettle.

For the sake of efficiency you should have added that extra wort to your boil kettle and boiled it down to your target pre-boil volume, taken your pre-boil gravity reading and then moved on with adding 60min hops (if you had a 60min addition) and starting your 1hr boil timer at that point.

It would have added a lot of time to your brew day, but you would have recaptured a lot of that sugar that was still in the mash tun.

Also, crush makes a huge difference. If you're at 0.04 now go to 0.034. Heck, add some rich hulls and go to 0.03. Rice hulls wouldn't hurt, regardless.

 

[Drk93TT]

Try getting a thermapen for reading mash temp , and set your target temp to 150*F and do the same beer again !

You could also try mashing for 90 minutes vs 60

Try to batch sparge for at least 30mins-45mins .. slow the runoff a bit and chill

 

[kh54s10]

1) Look at your crush.
2) Double check the calibration of your thermometers.
3) Check the settings in Beersmith. Particularly the tot efficiency field on the design page. BS will be trying to meet this number. Also look at the numbers in your equipment profile, these need to be accurate.
4) There is really no need to do a mash out when batch sparging. You will be bringing the wort to a boil pretty quickly so you don't need to stop the conversion.
5) Letting the batch sparge sit (as advised earlier) will not have much effect on your efficiency, actually it might allow sugars to stick to the grain husks, thus lowering your efficiency.
6) Work on getting your volumes correct. I measure the amount of wort collected from the mash, then adjust how much sparge I need. I usually do a 2 step sparge so that I get the proper preboil volume.

Keep fine tuning and you should get things dialed in so that you will be hitting your numbers. You will have to keep looking for the source of the problem is, once found, you are golden.

 

[nconform]

Thanks again everyone for all the valuable information. Turns out I checked my efficiency again the other day after looking at my fg for another beer I was doing and I wasn't allowing my refractometer readings to be calibrated along with the wort. After using beersmith to look at the calculations with the unfermented wort and fermented wort calculations that it does it looks as if my efficiency was 66%. Still not exactly where I wanted it to be but I think with the advice of fine tuning my crush, really being vigilant to my temps (and funny you suggested the thermapen because I just bought one), x'ing out the mash out and getting my volumes on point, I think I can get where I need to be. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to give me a push in the right direction. :rockin: