Ebrewing options and newbie electrical questions

[deuce40]

So to start off ive been brewing for almost two years now and absolutely love this hobby. I especially love how great my brews have been getting as of late because of improved processes. Now that ive gotten my brew day down to a science I want cut down on the cost a little by cutting down my propane usage.

My idea, which im sure someone has already done, is to use propane to and a heating element to heat up my strike water and get my boil going. Im going to use a two vessel system. One for mashing then another to boil and to heat up water with. The boil kettle will be used for all heating purposes so I want to have the element in this one. I want to use the propane to help get up to temps as fast as possible then just use and element to keep the boil going.

I have no really electrical knowledge so I would need some help in that department. I have done some research on this forum and I think I have a basic understanding of what ill need. I want to keep it simple so I want to do a 120v element, possibly the biggest one available to keep a good boil going for 5 gallon batches, then have the most simple control of that element. I believe that its called an ssr to control the element. So what do you guys think? Any feed back will be greatly appreciated.

 

[deuce40]

Also have a box outside that has some wires that are not connected to anything. Maybe I can use this to setup a outlet there. Will 220v outlet be feasible here.

 

[stlbeer]

Best advice - read the electric brewing primer that is stickied at the top of this forum.

Once you've done that you should have a basic understanding of how much power you can supply to your brewer.

Next - find the Excel spreadsheet called electricheat.xls. This will tell you how much energy you need at a particular wattage to get a volume of water (wort) to a certain temp. With that you can determine how much power you need.

Knowing how much power you can supply with the equipment (breakers, wiring, etc) you have and how much you'll need to accomplish your objectives is half the battle.

Plan well and you'll be successful.

Paul

 

[deuce40]

Sounds reasonable, I'm going to read up on it then come back on this tread to see if I've learned what I need.

 

[SPR-GRN]

Also have a box outside that has some wires that are not connected to anything. Maybe I can use this to setup a outlet there. Will 220v outlet be feasible here.

Had to reply to this on the 220v/120v thing. I'm assuming that was a 120v outlet at some time; you can not run 220v through wires that are sized for 120v - Sparks, Fire, Death etc. may follow. You may however be able to run heavier gauge wire through that receptacle, assuming you have the space in your panel to handle a 2-bar 30a breaker, and connect an appropriate weather-proof plug. DO NOT work in a panel that is live, DO NOT work in a panel if you don't know what you are doing.

You can install a weatherproof GFCI 120v outlet there, assuming the wire is run to your panel still (be certain to turn the breaker off before you install an outlet). Primary heat will come from Propane and the supplemental heat can come from a 120v heat stick, either DIY (again if you are comfortable with electrical) or you can buy one. This would reduce the amount of propane you use.

read read read, consider hiring an electrician. Electricity is not something to be taken lightly.

There are many DIY solutions on here for getting the brewing process back inside, whether it's two 120v 1500watt heating elements, or one 220v 45000watt or 5500watt element. Many many options.

again, read, read, read some more.

 

[danb35]

I'm assuming that was a 120v outlet at some time; you can not run 220v through wires that are sized for 120v - Sparks, Fire, Death etc. may follow.

Nonsense. Household electrical wiring is sized based on the amp load, not voltage, so those wires could most certainly carry household 240v power. They would, of course, need to be connected to an appropriate circuit breaker, and they may not be big enough to handle the current required, but the voltage is simply not a factor.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Had to reply to this on the 220v/120v thing. I'm assuming that was a 120v outlet at some time; you can not run 220v through wires that are sized for 120v - Sparks, Fire, Death etc. may follow.

All the commercial wiring I have ever seen used in outlets is rated for well in excess of 240v, often up to 600v. There is no special wire for 120v and special wire for 240v - it's all dependent on the amperage (as far as the wiring is concerned, up to its rated voltage) and in this specific situation, the practicality is dependent on how many wires go to that outlet.

If he has a 3 wire H-G-N 120v outlet that's rated for 15 amps based on wire gauge, then he can easily switch it over to a 3 wire 240v system (H-H-G) rated at 15 amps. If OP wanted to run a mix 120/240 system like many of us use, he'll need 4 wires - H-H-G-N, to safely do so. For what it's worth, it LOOKS like there are 4 wires there - Red, Black, White, and Bare - Hot A, Hot B, Neutral, and Ground respectively. It'd need to be confirmed, but that's what I see in the picture.

As long as you don't exceed the amperage rating of the wiring based on its gauge, there's no concern with the voltages we're dealing with.

-Kevin

 

[deuce40]

I'm going to pop open the box again a little later to see how many wires there was. This was actually going to be the next question after reading some of the primer. So if four wire I can put a four prong plug and safely run 120 and 240 because I will have tow hot wire both at 120 each. Run all 240 with the two hots bonded together to a bus or something else to run multiple items together. I will not do anything to fancy though just want to be able to control the boil.

 

[danb35]

You really need to read up on household electricity a bit. If you bond the two hot legs together, hopefully you'll blow the breaker--otherwise you'll probably burn your house down.

 

[jeffmeh]

Locate and identify the circuit breaker feeding those wires, and identify the wire gauge and number of wires, and we can help figure out your options.

 

[deuce40]

You really need to read up on household electricity a bit. If you bond the two hot legs together, hopefully you'll blow the breaker--otherwise you'll probably burn your house down.

ok I think I understand. The two 120v wires are not bonded but will power what ever you are trying to power through the two separate wires. Two more wires are need the neutral and the ground.

So I looked at the box again and I have 4 wire in there. Found the circuit breaker and its 30amp. I feel like I have a few options now and should go with a bigger element size. Now I just need to figure out how to handle power control of the heating element.

 

[danb35]

If those wires are connected to a two-pole, 30-amp breaker, you'll have plenty of power to run a 5500-watt element. The two common options for power control are a PID + temp probe + SSR (~$100 from Auber Instruments), which will let you set a temperature and hold it quite accurately; or a phase-angel or PWM controller, which will let you dial in the power (but not automatically hold a specified temperature). The latter are simpler to operate, in that they let you control the power with a simple turn of a knob, but temperature control requires more attention.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Definitely don't bond any wires together - they're separate wires for a reason. Touch them together and you'll get a brilliant display of light and smoke, a loud pop, and a whiff of ozone likely followed by the smell of the dookie that was just deposited in your drawers...

 

[Shockerengr]

Sounds like here may have been a hot tub there once. You should have plenty of power to boil without propane at all.

I would reccomend against having propane and electric in the same kettle unless you have a good plan to deal with the heat wash from the propane...last thing you want is to melt the cord or catch it on fire

 

[deuce40]

What would the power usage look like if I do full electric. I would hate to run up the power bill past the cost of just getting propane.

I was planning on putting some kind of heat sheild to protect the wires that come from the pot. I need to do some more research on that part though. This is defiantly going to need some careful planning. If I just wanted to just do 120v that same task can be achieved with these wires just use on of the hot legs correct? I will be moving to a new home in September and would hate to have an element that I will not be able to use there.

Thanks for all the help guys keep the info coming!

 

[Shockerengr]

Unless your electric rates are very high, you won't come close. A 5500w element for two hours will use 11kw of electricity. At $.20 a kWh (really high) you are talking about $2.20 in electricity.

As for using 120v, you'll be limited in the amount of power you can use.

 

[danb35]

My electric system (with a 5.5kW element) took around 20-30 minutes total to bring 8 gallons to a boil. If we figure 30 minutes, that's 2.75 kWh. I run it at 65% for the boil, so for an hour-long boil that would be 3.6 kWh. At my electric rates, that's about 65 cents' worth of electricity. I'm discounting the energy use during the mash, as it was very minimal--the water just doesn't lose much heat over the course of the hour, so very little has to be added.

How many batches do you get out of a $20 propane fill?

 

[mattd2]

...If he has a 3 wire H-G-N 120v outlet that's rated for 15 amps based on wire gauge, then he can easily switch it over to a 3 wire 240v system (H-H-G) rated at 15 amps...

-Kevin

Bit offtopic since we have established the OP has got H-H-N-G but I would not be recomending changing out a 120V line to a 240V line as you suggest, but purely for the fact that the wire colour would no longer be as per the established standard and could be potentially fatal for the next homeowner who looks at it thinking that white is nuetral and not hot.

 

[danb35]

Bit offtopic since we have established the OP has got H-H-N-G but I would not be recomending changing out a 120V line to a 240V line as you suggest, but purely for the fact that the wire colour would no longer be as per the established standard and could be potentially fatal for the next homeowner who looks at it thinking that white is nuetral and not hot.

That's why you're supposed to flag the white wire on both ends with some red or black electrical tape, to mark it as another hot. It's a step that seems to be frequently missed, though.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Bit offtopic since we have established the OP has got H-H-N-G but I would not be recomending changing out a 120V line to a 240V line as you suggest, but purely for the fact that the wire colour would no longer be as per the established standard and could be potentially fatal for the next homeowner who looks at it thinking that white is nuetral and not hot.

My limited understanding of the NEC is that you would be allowed to go forward with using the wrong colored wiring so long as you taped a good portion of the end with the appropriately colored electrical tape. Or perhaps that's just common practice in some jurisdictions? Either way, you are correct - there is the possiblity of someone being confused down the line, which is why I would definitely advocate for using tape to properly identify the wiring.

As for the propane vs electric debate - there have been numerous threads on the costs associated with heating, and they always seem to come around finding that electric is a minor savings over propane. Where electric really wins out - almost all of the heat generated by the element goes straight to heating your liquid, so it's far more efficient. You have an unlimited supply of electricity, so no mid-brew runs to get a propane tank filled, or no "I need to remember to go get propane so I can brew this weekend" moments. I've brewed on both propane and electric and I can say that electric is definitely the way to go. If you have the wiring to get 240v to your brew location, then forget about the propane burner and drop a 240v element in there and enjoy brewing!

 

[deuce40]

So I've decided to just throw in the 5500 watt burn into the boil kettle and just use propane to get my strike and sparge water to temp. This way I just have to use the burner very minimally and can start boiling while I'm doing the sparge with the first runnings.

I've been doing some reading on the electricbrewery.com and started to make a list of components that are need for the build. I wanted to go the pid route just incase I wanted to use it for other things in the future like controlling the mash. Do I just set it at boiling temps and let it do it's thing?

Here my list

1. PID
2. SSR
3. 4 prong dryer connector and plug
4. 10 - 3 wire
5. Possibly some other gauge wire for PID?
6. Some kind of box to house everything
7. Heat sink for SSR
8. A button for emergency stop (e-stop)
9. Switch to power on the control panel

Anything else that is needed? I don't have any pumps or anything like that I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible. I just want to hook up and boil with the element. Help with wiring would be great also I have a picture of another setups wiring but it's from the portable 120v pid setup. It was the simplest look schematic that I could find. Lol even in this picture though I don't understand why a switch was wire into it? Is that the power on off?

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

First - to address your question - when boiling with a PID you set the temperature to 210 or so and let it run up. When it gets there, switch it over to manual mode and set your % to whatever you need. For me, with a 15gal keggle boiling about 7gal using a 5500w element, I'm good with 60% for a nice rolling boil. Change any of those variables and your needed % will change, but that's easy enough to dial in with the PID. If you set it to 212, you'll have very vigorous boils and then very mild boils - it's better to just keep it on manual mode.

A few other things you may want to add to your list - a contactor is a good idea between the SSR and the outlet. The contactor would connect to a switch, which requires you to push a button / flip a switch to turn it on. This does a few things for you - 1: you don't have to worry about the heating element ever coming on when you're not ready for it. Say you power up your panel and your PID is still set to some temperature - it'll fire the element right away and start heating up. If you don't have water in your tank, that can be bad for the heating element. The switch allows you to program the PID and do all the settings you want, but turn the element on (or more aptly, complete the circuit between the SSR and the element so the PID can turn the element on) only when you want it on. It's also an added safety feature, as SSRs tend to leak some voltage, so just because the PID is telling you the element is off doesn't mean it's actually 100% off.

The picture you show is for a 120v system so I wouldn't try using it with your 240v 5500w system, but the switch shown is not doing what I describe above. The switch is providing power to the entire unit. When you flip that switch, the PID fires up, the SSR gets power, and if the PID sends an "on" signal to the SSR, that outlet is getting power whether you want it to or not.

You may want to invest in some fuses as well, to protect your smaller amperage stuff.

Keep reading Kal's website (theelectricbrewery.com) - he covers all this stuff and why you should have it.

-Kevin

 

[stlbeer]

It looks like you're making great progress in deciding what you want to do and how to do it.

If I might make a suggestion, if you are going to use both propane and electric - and I see no problem with this - I would rather see you use the electric on the HLT so you can get your strike temps just right and then use the propane on the BK where strict temperature control is less of an issue.

 

[deuce40]

If I used propane to boil I wouldn't really be saving much. I want to cut the cost of propane pretty much and stick with a simple system with one element and only two pots.

So I found a wiring diagram on the forum that looked like it could be reworked to fit what I need. It was originally set up for a system with two pumps and two elements. I redrew it on a piece of paper and hope I got it right. I'm sure there are many flaws but I'm going to go ahead and put it up to see what you guys think.

I removed the whole pump system, the switch to pick which element is turned on, one contractor, one element, and the e stop. I removed all the lights also. The e stop triggers the gfci when activated. Is this a good way to go? I want to have one wires in but not sure if this a common way to do it.

 

[deuce40]

Here my little drawing, it's a work in progress.

 

[deuce40]

Is it that bad? I can take some criticism people, come lets go.

 

[The10mmKid]

Is it that bad? I can take some criticism people, come lets go.

Makes sense to me, other than you are missing a neutral to the PID.

'da Kid

 

[The10mmKid]

Not knowing which PID is being used, I would attempt to wire the contactor coil into one of the alarm circuits. Use the normally closed output that would open during a 'High Limit' alarm condition.

'da Kid

 

[stlbeer]

The mspaint drawing you posted is unreadable at the resolution you used.

The paper and pen drawing you posted is much more readable. It looks like the hot1 and neutral are tied together just above the below the coil. Is that the case? or are the wires just crossing each other there?

I think you've mistaken the PID wiring terminals. 1 & 14 are for alarming. 9 & 10 are for power. You should make sure you're reviewed the terminal definitions for the PID you plan on using. Here's the one for the 2352, which is the one P-J uses in his drawings - auberins.com/images/Manual/Manual%20version%203.4.pdf‎.

You removed the button from the contactor coil circuit. Why? It costs about $10 for a pushbutton switch or $2.50 for a toggle switch and you would have element on, off control while still being able to monitor the temperature.

 

[deuce40]

I was trying to keep it simple as possible and remove all in need parts to understand how everything works. I'm going to revise my drawing and add a two position switch to power the element on and off. I will be adding a fuse inline with the pid.

I now see that I wired the neutral and the hot 1 together but that's the way it looks like in diagram. You right about the power for the pid. I didn't add the wires for that which is 9 and 10 like stated above. Now the alarm wiring is what has to power the contractor to power the element? What is the output on the pid?

 

[deuce40]

I will be using the 2352 pid. I didn't know there were different models lol. I feel confident that I can do this know. I need to get gfci protection out there so I was thinking of going with a spa panel. I don't feel confident opening up the breaker box.

With a four wires it should be straight forward wiring, correct?

 

[stlbeer]

Yes, wiring a spa panel should be straight forward wiring - for someone who's been trained and has experience with such a thing. It's very hard for some of us here to give advice on working with electricity and in breaker panels and not feel somewhat concerned for the person on the receiving end of the advice.

If you've never added a breaker/branch circuit to a breaker box, I would advise you to hire a certified/licensed/insured electrician to do this for you. Failures in this area can end up with burned down houses. Installing a spa panel involves opening up the breaker box.

 

[mattd2]

Yes, wiring a spa panel should be straight forward wiring - for someone who's been trained and has experience with such a thing. It's very hard for some of us here to give advice on working with electricity and in breaker panels and not feel somewhat concerned for the person on the receiving end of the advice.

I've you've never added a breaker/branch circuit to a breaker box, I would advise you to hire a certified/licensed/insured electrician to do this for you. Failures in this area can end up with burned down houses. Installing a spa panel involves opening up the breaker box.

Fully agree with the sentiment of you post.
Got a question on the technical though:
Why would one need to open up the breaker box to install the spa panel in this situation (except to turn of the main isolation switch)? The wiring is already run to the point of use and terminated in a JB there. Should the install not involve mearly attaching the spa panel next to the JB, running conduit between the 2, connecting the correct wires through into the new spa panel, then out into a switched outlet?

 

[deuce40]

That's exactly what I was thinking also. I've found many videos explaining how to make it work but I've decided against doing 220v and planning to run two elements 120v. Just for the sake of simplicity and the ability to easily adapt the system to my new home in a couple of months. I'm going to base the system off the diagram that was first shown above with the switch.

 

[deuce40]

One of the elements will just be plugged in and on all the time and the other our controlled.

 

[mattd2]

What is the reasoning behind having the contactor? If you are not controlling it in any way it is not adding any function. Although you may want to take another look and consider adding that control switch so you can switch on/off the contactors (one per element).
My thoughts on your sketch and what you have said so far:
You say you are looking for a system that will run two 120V elements, but what you have sketched up is for a 240V system as you are connecting the element between hot 1 & hot 2.
With electrical stuff that has the potential to kill/burn down your house you want to either be 100% sure you know what you are doing or get someone who does to do it. This is not stuff you want to have a go at because it needs to be right first time.

 

[deuce40]

I've had a change of heart that's why the sketch does not match my last post.