Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)

[Almighty]

I personally never rack for my sour beers. Traditionally, Lambics would stay on the primary yeast cake and malty Flanders beers would be racked after primary.

Racking is just another opportunity to pick up oxygen and that means acetic acid. If you racked, you would want to immediately after primary or add a bit of sugar to promote a bit of fermentation to scrub the oxygen.

I have never done side by side testing, but supposedly leaving the beer on the yeast cake will increase your funky flavors produced by the Brett. I guess the idea behind this is that it has a greater carbon source (yeast cake) to metabolize into different flavors.

 

[dantheman13]

I personally never rack for my sour beers. Traditionally, Lambics would stay on the primary yeast cake and malty Flanders beers would be racked after primary.

Racking is just another opportunity to pick up oxygen and that means acetic acid. If you racked, you would want to immediately after primary or add a bit of sugar to promote a bit of fermentation to scrub the oxygen.

I have never done side by side testing, but supposedly leaving the beer on the yeast cake will increase your funky flavors produced by the Brett. I guess the idea behind this is that it has a greater carbon source (yeast cake) to metabolize into different flavors.

Thanks! That is perfect, and what I wanted to hear. I hate racking in general.

 

[badlee]

My Orval dregs pale is now 4-5 months old. Cracked one at the weekend and the flavour balance is shifting. The smoke is softer,the fruits are only hinting at being there and this quiet yet attention demanding tart/sourness is there. Kind of makes you pucker up at the faint memory of sucking a lime

 

[dantheman13]

Thanks, Almighty. The airlock wasn't totally dry, there was still a seal on it. I left out a potentially important detail in the video. I inoculated this one with dregs from a Cascade Kriek bottle, but it didn't have any activity for a good month. I decided to put some US05 in there, which caused an explosion of a fermentation... which I forgot to check on and made that mess in the airlock. It's been sitting like that for about 5 months. I suppose oxidation is possible, but I don't think that it is the cause. I haven't been brave enough to taste yet, but I suppose that will be something to do for next Homebrew Wednesday! I will definitely report back the tasting results in hopes you or someone else has an idea what caused this darkening.

Thanks again, Almighty, I really appreciate your responses here.

Well here is a tasting video. Sorry if it is long and boring. In short, I do think two of the beers were oxidized. I appreciate any feedback in advance!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB9xVBMrisI&feature=plcp

 

[Almighty]

dantheman-
I checked out the video. Here are a couple suggestions I have:

Interesting that you got so much sourness in 6 months - how quickly did you have active fermentation?

I noticed you picked up a few off-flavors - solventy, vegetable (DMS), band-aid - solventy could come from oxidation mixed with phenols from the Brett - keep those airlocks filled up, the DMS might be from some bad bacteria that got started before the good ones could take control -I now make starters with the dregs (in original bottle) and wait till I have some activity if no activity then I will pitch in some Sacc with the dregs; Band-aid - either from the Brett or water with high level of Cl.

Color Difference - That is pretty strange especially since you tasted "barleywine flavors" which correspond to Malliard Reactions. So I did some google searching and Malliard Reactions can happen without heat. So here is a wild guess at what happened: For "browning" to occur you need amino acids and reducing sugars. Both are plentiful in beer - the browning process will spontaneously happen it is just generally a slow process in liquid and at room temperataure. So for one beer to become darker than the others there are a couple possibilities: higher temperature (increases reaction rate), more amino acids (more hot break (protein) that is broken down with organic acids to form amino acids or has a yeast that produces higher amounts of amino acids as a byproduct)

As for the ones you didn't like as much, let them ride a bit longer. And then I would blend with a non-sour base beer that you think it will work well with. For example, Guinness has a couple percent sour beer added. The trick to blending is to taste the beer before and then get a "taste vision" of where you want it to go.

Good Luck.

 

[dantheman13]

dantheman-
I checked out the video. Here are a couple suggestions I have:

Interesting that you got so much sourness in 6 months - how quickly did you have active fermentation?

I noticed you picked up a few off-flavors - solventy, vegetable (DMS), band-aid - solventy could come from oxidation mixed with phenols from the Brett - keep those airlocks filled up, the DMS might be from some bad bacteria that got started before the good ones could take control -I now make starters with the dregs (in original bottle) and wait till I have some activity if no activity then I will pitch in some Sacc with the dregs; Band-aid - either from the Brett or water with high level of Cl.

Color Difference - That is pretty strange especially since you tasted "barleywine flavors" which correspond to Malliard Reactions. So I did some google searching and Malliard Reactions can happen without heat. So here is a wild guess at what happened: For "browning" to occur you need amino acids and reducing sugars. Both are plentiful in beer - the browning process will spontaneously happen it is just generally a slow process in liquid and at room temperataure. So for one beer to become darker than the others there are a couple possibilities: higher temperature (increases reaction rate), more amino acids (more hot break (protein) that is broken down with organic acids to form amino acids or has a yeast that produces higher amounts of amino acids as a byproduct)

As for the ones you didn't like as much, let them ride a bit longer. And then I would blend with a non-sour base beer that you think it will work well with. For example, Guinness has a couple percent sour beer added. The trick to blending is to taste the beer before and then get a "taste vision" of where you want it to go.

Good Luck.

Fermentation lag - The one that tasted best had an active fermentation pretty quickly. I want to say within a few days. It was the least sour of the bunch, but still sour. The Temptation dregs only beer took longer. I want to say around a couple of weeks. The darker beer never had an active fermentation that I saw. I left it for a month before deciding to pitch some US05, which gave it a very active fermentation. The wort was a normal color at that time.

Each of the bottles used had a small starter wort added to them for a week before pitching. It is very possible that bad bacteria got into the darker beer.

Each of the fermenters were kept in the same closet under the same conditions, and started with the same wort. However, the darker fermenter had a blowoff that I failed to clean up! Oxidation and an outside infection probably could have occurred in this one.

I don't have much hope for the darker one, but I will hang on to it. Has anyone gotten nail polish out of Russian River Temptation dregs? This fermenter too could have suffered from an almost dry airlock, so oxidation is one culprit for sure. It also hasn't developed a pellicle.

Thanks for the feedback and the view hit, I appreciate it, Almighty.

 

[ashmgee]

Just tried two varieties of this that I started in October. Both were soured with jolly punkin dregs.


Both were absolutely amazing!
I have been lazy lately and not carbing and bottling. Instead I rack into a gallon jug and drink it still. I mostly make mead and cider so bubbles aren't all that important

 

[Dhruv6911]

Few question guys as i am new to lambics,

The addition of hops is not required correct? But rather it would add complexity/taste. For a five gallon batch (I dont see myself going back to mini 1 gallon brews) how many dregs (cake on the bottom of the bottle?) would i need? Starter required?

Thanks

 

[acer651]

I had straight 2-row come out about halfway to that color. I DID intentionally let the airlock dry out on that gallon for a little vinegar character because I was trying to clone Duchesse and was trying to see if that helped. I've only done about 10 of these and each has been its own color. Some light, some orange, some brown. Fun to see the differences since I always use 2-row at 3 IBU at 1.040.

Any luck with the Duchess clone?

 

[dantheman13]

An update on how my 1 gallon sour beer experiments have been going (2 years in):

 

[rorypayne]

Idk if n e one has said this but Carlo Rossi jugs are 1g and u can use the cheap wine to clean out your still. Just a thought.

 

[dantheman13]

I was able to get a shout out to this thread on my interview with James Spencer at BasicBrewing Radio!

http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/bbr01-30-14sourexp.mp3

 

[ahpsp]

I hadn't read this thread until I watched dan's videos last week, but I started doing this with almost all my beers a couple of months ago. So far I haven't been souring, just using Brett, but it's a great way to get variety in the pipeline.

 

[Almighty]

I finally got around to listening to it. You did a nice job, Dan. It's good to see that the information is still relevant. I still use this technique with the 1 gal batches off of my main batch, but more with isolated strains than bottle dregs.

It's pretty interesting to see the changes in homebrewing (and craft beer) since this was started in Aug 2010.

 

[badlee]

I am still on it too

Sent from my GT-I8552B using Home Brew mobile app

 

[statseeker]

When I heard this thread mentioned on BBR I was extremely happy for you Almighty. If anyone deserves a shoutout on the radio it's you man. Good thread. Now if we can get it stickied....

 

[dantheman13]

When I heard this thread mentioned on BBR I was extremely happy for you Almighty. If anyone deserves a shoutout on the radio it's you man. Good thread. Now if we can get it stickied....

+1 on sticky... this thread changed my life.

 

[badlee]

+1

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[passedpawn]

I was able to get a shout out to this thread on my interview with James Spencer at BasicBrewing Radio!

http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/bbr01-30-14sourexp.mp3

Nice job Dan. Just listened to the show while biking.

 

[Mark_tries_brewing]

Are there issues related to temperature with the viability/ effectiveness of the dregs? I have multiple sour beers in my fridge right now. Is there a time limit on how long they can remain below 40 and still be used to make new sours (I hope I haven't ruined the chance of using the dregs already)? I guess this brings up a broader question should store bought sour beers be kept out of the refrigerator until just prior to consumption? I know they get better with age but I unwittingly placed them with all my others and now am wondering if that was a big mistake.

 

[dantheman13]

Are there issues related to temperature with the viability/ effectiveness of the dregs? I have multiple sour beers in my fridge right now. Is there a time limit on how long they can remain below 40 and still be used to make new sours (I hope I haven't ruined the chance of using the dregs already)? I guess this brings up a broader question should store bought sour beers be kept out of the refrigerator until just prior to consumption? I know they get better with age but I unwittingly placed them with all my others and now am wondering if that was a big mistake.

I don't think there is anything wrong with refrigerating dregs or sour beers that will be used later for inoculating. Most of these cultures are stored refrigerated anyway by the yeast manufacturers. In fact, it may be preferable to store them this way. I would recommend making a starter with them once you are ready to use them, and check for viability that way. Give them a week to show some signs of life (which could be as little as some CO2 blow off). I am definitely not an expert on using dregs though, so hopefully more people will chime in!

Thanks all for the compliments on my interview with BBR.

 

[statseeker]

Just hoping sometime soon I can get on there after I do my adjunct experiment. Still haven't gotten that done yet. So many GD issues with cars lately. Ready to just run them into a ditch and leave them there. Lol

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[JeffOYB]

Easy sours -- that's the ticket! Build a pipeline. ...I'm getting excited. If I start something like this I might as well build a Chicken Tractor for the yard and a rabbit hutch and get a bee-hive going, too. Commitment! (Even if on a small scale.) Thanks for all the low-down.

So I saw that Almighty was going to report back after a year (or something like that) but it's been years now and I am clicking thru this HUGE thread and don't see him doing much reviewing. I saw an early review a few months into it that sounded exciting. Then? I'm lost. Too much, too big!

I've done some brewing and have used grains and am falling hard for sours, so...

I've also lately been baking bread. I've found that I just can't go wrong. I make all sorts, every loaf different. All good.

I've never wrecked a beer, either. I'm just thinking this stuff is tolerant and that a wide range of results and differences still fall under the heading of "Mmmm, tasty!"

So I was scared at first to consider sours. But now I'm thinking of jumping in. Thanks!

 

[dantheman13]

Easy sours -- that's the ticket! Build a pipeline. ...I'm getting excited. If I start something like this I might as well build a Chicken Tractor for the yard and a rabbit hutch and get a bee-hive going, too. Commitment! (Even if on a small scale.) Thanks for all the low-down.

So I saw that Almighty was going to report back after a year (or something like that) but it's been years now and I am clicking thru this HUGE thread and don't see him doing much reviewing. I saw an early review a few months into it that sounded exciting. Then? I'm lost. Too much, too big!

I've done some brewing and have used grains and am falling hard for sours, so...

I've also lately been baking bread. I've found that I just can't go wrong. I make all sorts, every loaf different. All good.

I've never wrecked a beer, either. I'm just thinking this stuff is tolerant and that a wide range of results and differences still fall under the heading of "Mmmm, tasty!"

So I was scared at first to consider sours. But now I'm thinking of jumping in. Thanks!

It's a fantastic method to getting started. If a 1 gallon batch turns out really good, you can blend it with a younger beer and get a Solera going. If you get several that are good, blend them into younger beers, Solera them and have them each for blending with each other or whatever... the options are endless with this method!

As for Jeff, you can contact him on his blog: http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/

 

[serum]

This is an excellent thread. I've only just started making AG brews but I've already got myself a little 1 gallon carboy to test this out at some point as love beers with a good bit of funk in them.

I'm making some more Chouffe in a few weeks. Would I be able to take a gallon aside from the primary when the yeast is done, water it down a little so it's not ridiculously strong and add an orval dregs starter to that?

Would it be better to get it going for a bit in the carboy and then bottle once I know it's working well?

Finally, all the beers I've made so far have had priming sugar added. Would I want to do that with something with a bit of sour in it or should leaving it for a long time sort that out?

 

[captgus]

I'm going to midwest brew supply right now as it's barely 1 mile from my office! I have 10 gallons of Blonde ale at home and I think 2 gallons are gonna get funktified!

My blonde was fermented in Primary half on Belgian Ardenes, and the other have on American Ale. I'll put 1 gallon of each into a gallon jug and then I need to decide on which dregs to put on them. I have some Le Prof flemish ale in my cellar, I also have some Jolly Pumpkin. Now that I think about it I have a couple Telegraph beers in my cellar that I've been itching to drink. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Two thumbs up, I'd give three if I had them, for Telegraph!

 

[rrenaud]

Do you ever add your yeast form the original batch in addition to adding the dregs, rather than making it dregs only?

 

[Stevecarb]

First sour beer brew. I followed the recipe for the Milk the Funk Berliner weisse (70% pilsner, 30% wheat). Since the recipe yields 8 gallons of wort, I decided to put 5 gallons into a carboy and 1 gallon each into 3 one-gallon jugs. I didn't hit the 8 gallon target, so the jugs ended up with ~3/4 gallon each. The jugs were purged with CO2 before filling. Dregs then went into each jug.

OG: 1.039

Jug 1: Crooked Stave St. Bretta (Clementine) - 10.2015
Jug 2: Russian River Consecration - Bottled 06.17.2015
Jug 3: Trinity Brewing Magical Brettanomyces Tour No.7 Anomola - 09.2015

It has been about 48 hours since pitching the dregs. Should I be seeing any activity?
Since there is a lot of head space, should I purge with CO2 every so often?

 

[Almighty]

As far as activity after 48 hours that is a maybe and depends on how viable the dregs are as well as the quantity of the dregs. I moved towards doing a small starter (2-4 oz) in each bottle a few days before brew day (freeze some second runnings to use for starters). You will eventually see some activity, but probably nothing too strong with that low cell count and that low gravity.

I would recommend that you top up with more wort the next time you brew. Also the need for topping up also depends on how long you plan to age. If more than a few weeks (fine for the CS and Trinity since they are Brett beers, but probably not for Russian River) I would top up.

 

[darling]

I started my first 1 gal sour yesterday. I made a 5 gal Weissbier (60% Wheat malt, 30% Pale malt, 8% Munich, 2% Acidulated) and pulled off 1 gal after 15 minutes of the boil. I didn't add any hops to this gallon, chilled it and pitched the dregs of three gueuzes (Oude Beersel, Mariage Parfait and Boon Oude Gueuze).

Is it a problem that I didn't add any hops? Will there be stability problems over time? I had considered Alimghty's original post about boiling the full volume with the bittering charge for a certain time, estimating a low IBU, then pulling off the gallon. But I didn't want to over-estimate an ideal target of <5 IBU. In retrospect, my total IBU for the Weissbier is 14, so I would've been OK; but that's the choice I made.

Any ideas?