Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)

[HokieBrewer]

Inspired me to pick up two Flanders last night and give this a go on my next batch. Looks like fun.

 

[Almighty]

What Flanders did you pick up? Because most are filtered, especially from Belgium.

 

[phished880]

Almighty:
What east coast stuff were you thinking about?

 

[ashmgee]

J/P oro de calabaza was a no go on ferment, so I picked up a bottle of orval to throw in hope this one takes, I running out of room in the jug.

 

[HokieBrewer]

Petrus Aged Pale Ale and this:
http://www.bockor.be/en/our-beers/bellegems-bruin

Perhaps they're not Flanders, still getting my arms around tha funk...

 

[Almighty]

phished880-
The three I want to try the most are:
Captain Lawrence Cuvee Castleton
Anything from Allagash's coolship
Anything from Bullfrog

Ashmgee-
That bottle of JP Oro de Calabaza should have very active dregs - what is the batch#?
What are your procedures?
Are you putting the bottle in the fridge for a few days to make sure the dregs collect on the bottom?
Are you using a starter in the bottle?
Are you adding yeast nutrients?
Are you aerating the wort before pitching the dregs?
How long are you waiting for activity?

HokieBrewer-
I had decent results with Petrus - not my favorite strain but you may enjoy it. This is a small bottle so a starter may help depending on the age of the bottle and strength of the wort. (just add a few oz of starter + nutrients right to the bottle)
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/08/homebrew-tasting-petrus-common.html

And the Bockor I think is filtered. Shine a light in the bottom of the bottle to check for dregs.

Those are 2 great gateway sour beers that are tasty. They both are mild on the sour and have very little funk compared to others out there. Good Luck

 

[ashmgee]

almighty,

the bottle was labeled from 5/?/11 without looking. (bottle is currently buried and filled with beer)

with this one I used the same procedure as the last one. let bottle be still for 4 days in the fridge. drink out of glass, and then pour the last inch and a half into the wort.

not using a starter
not using nutrient although I have some i could use. to late to add now?
definitely aerating wort prior to pitch
realizing this is a slow process I give at least a week for results.

this week hadn't been a good one for fermenting at my house. my dregs batch didn't take and also a belgian that I brewed did not take with wlp550. just had to repitch last night and had activity this morning.

this is only my second dregs gallon attempt, but the first one took quickly with the la roja. was expecting the same with the oro de calabaza, but it was a couple of months older by date. the la roja was dated august if I remember correctly (it is also buried).

for my worts, I have been making simple extracts with belgian style steeping grains.
not high OG and not hopped. I usually add a small amount of hops at 15 min, but these batches have been separate from other beer making because I wanted to make an environment that would be easy on the yeasts.

the plan is to get a couple of these churning and then add to 4 gallons of wort that I will make in similar style for these if I like the direction they are heading. I figured that one a month would be plenty and this is month 2, but month 2 has already exceeded budget with the J/K not taking, and having to buy more beer. (that's ok because i like beer and these experiments)

 

[Almighty]

Yeah, it seems like you are doing everything right.

I guess maybe a starter could help. I just use run-off from a main batch. After I'm done sparging I run through another 1/2 gal and then boil down on the stove so it is at 1.030 - 1.040. Cool it, pour in a ziploc then into the freezer. When I want to make a starter I break off a piece of the starter ice cube, bring to a boil , add 1/8 t of Wyeast Nutrient and boil for 5 minutes. I cool it cover in the sink and then pour it into the bottle.

Keep the updates coming, it is interesting to hear other results.

 

[ashmgee]

that is a clever way to keep starter material around. I will have to try that, although I don't have the equipment to brew all grain. I could easily use that method to make starters, and that could help because I would be able to verify viability of dregs before adding them to my wort.

do you just cover the bottle with foil?

 

[Almighty]

Yes, I sanitize the foil with Starsan stored in a spray bottle. And then I shake the bottle as often as possible. I usually get activity in 1 -3 days. The activity in these small starters are not as obvious as they are in larger batches.

 

[dougdecinces]

First things first: excellent idea. I put the dregs from a bottle of Hannsen's Oude Kriek in a gallon of my Kentucky Common and it has a nice pellicle already. I also have a bottle of Noel de Calabaza and a Bruery Sweet Potato ale that I can use for other nefarious purposes.

I do have a question, though. Rather than open up another thread, I thought I'd go to the source. I have a bottle of Bayerischer Bahnhof Leipziger Porticus in my fridge. I know it is fermented with Brett and I know that it is bottle conditioned. I was wondering if you or anyone else knew if there was usable brett in this bottle. I am brewing a persimmon brown ale and I think that may be fantastic with brett.

 

[Almighty]

Bayerischer Bahnhof Leipziger Porticus - what a cool sounding beer - where did you find that bottle?

If it is bottle conditioned I would imagine the Brett is still viable. Make a small starter in the bottle to find out.

And a persimmon brown ale with Brett sounds very good. I wonder what strain of Brett is in the Bayerischer. You may be able to email the brewer and ask. I find most people in this industry are happy to share info.

I added persimmons to a pale base beer with Russian River dregs and I'm looking forward to see how those flavors mesh.

 

[ashmgee]

maybe you all could help me with this question.

I have started two gallons in containers. One was a dark wort with minimal cascade hop late addition. The second was a Belgian saison style. I am looking to start a third at some point this coming month and was wondering if you all had any ideas for a pairing of dregs with style of wort you were particularly pleased with?

Bare with me, I only have the capability to brew extract with specialty grains. I would love to hear the styles you have success with, and then could formulate a recipe in that direction. Some of the styles that are presented here seem to be out of my brewing range, but I could be totally off on that.
Thanks again

 

[Almighty]

ashmgee-
I'm going to need a lot more information from you to give you a good response. It really depends on your taste. I know this might not be all that helpful, but the best way to know is to try beer. Once you have a good background of your taste then I would suggest you read a few beer blogs to get inspiration.

I read quite a few to get ideas and try to understand flavor combinations. Start with some of these resources.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/homebrew-beer-recipes.html
Mike is the one that inspired me to start trying to brew these beers. He has a very extensive recipe list and with tasting notes.

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/p/beer-recipes_7155.html
My other favorite. Ryan really tests some flavor combinations and uses some unusual ingredients. He also has a great beer recipe list with tasting results.

http://seanywonton.blogspot.com/search/label/Funk
Sean also has a bunch of recipes, not that many funky or sour, but still a good reference.

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/p/beer-recipes.html
My beer recipe list and I'm trying to get better about posting tastings

There are many others I am missing so just look at the reading list on people's blogs.

I also suggest looking at commercial beers that are released. Some of my favorites

Start here - http://dankbrewingcompany.blogspot.com/2011/09/us-sour-beer-guide-sour-brett-and-funk.html
He listed so many sour beers and where they come from

Upright Brewing - http://uprightbrewingblog.blogspot.com/ - really creative beers

Cascade Brewing - http://cascadebrewingbarrelhouse.com/beer.asp - I suggest subscribing to their newsletter, they produce so many varieties of sour beers it is crazy. And I really like to see what they are doing to get some good flavor combinations.

Jolly Pumpkin - http://www.ratebeer.com/brewers/jolly-pumpkin-artisan-ales/4923/ - This is particular helpful if using their dregs you can see what they think works well.

Lost Abbey - http://www.ratebeer.com/brewers//port-brewing-lost-abbey/7043/ -
These dregs are also easy to get if you live in CA

Russian River - http://www.russianriverbrewing.com/pages/bottle/index.html - the bottle log tells you what they used and Vinnie has been very open about recipes so you should find them around the internet.

Many more.

As far as process, I think you can brew any of these beers. Most of the flavors for these beer are made during the fermentation. I think the base wort has pretty low importance for these styles as compared to other styles. If you have specific questions feel free to ask.

 

[Guess42]

So I have three gallon batches going with dregs. I popped the lid on all of them last night to take a smell. They all smelled like the rubber bungs I used with the airlocks. Hoping this smell doesn't get into the beer, how are you guys air locking the jugs?

 

[Almighty]

I use a size 6.5(?) rubber stopper in my glass jugs and have never had a problem. It is the same kind that is used in my carboy.

 

[Guess42]

Yeah, that's what I use, mine are giving off a horrible rubber smell. Guess I'll just have to taste a sample to see.

 

[Solether]

My Russian River Temptation bottle made a great starter. Took about 4 days to get anything active in there, but once it was clearly rolling I pitched it onto my 1 gallon jug of Saison. It is fermenting away quite nicely now. Can't wait to see what it's like down the road. One thing I am a little worried about is that it had a decent sized late hop addition of amarillo. I hope it's not too hoppy to let it age long enough for the bugs to do their thing.

My brewing buddy and I took a bit of a hiatus to replenish our bank accounts so we don't have any new batches to pitch on at the moment, but I'm thinking that once we get rolling again in a month or so we will do a 5 gallon blond ale or something plain like that to do 5 different bug pitches with.

We've also started saving the dregs of non-bug bottles that we like and plan to cultivate some yeast strains with them as well. Can't wait to grow the sake yeast from The Bruery's Faster Bigger Better Bolder and make a Japanese IPA with sorachi ace hops.

Will keep updating as things progress.

 

[Almighty]

So you are using the same kind as you use in your main batch and you have never had a problem before?
Not sure how the batch size would change this.

Another thought, what dregs have you used so far? Could this smell be an over-the-top Belgian phenol? This can happen with certain types of Brett if brewed at higher temps. I had it happen with 100% Brett C brewed in the high 70s. It had to be blended to be drinkable.

 

[ashmgee]

almighty-

I have been reading through the links that you posted, and there are some great ideas there. I think for the next one that I do I will go a little bigger and make a 3 gallon batch of an orval clone that I copied down from the Jamil podcast I listened to about belgian specialty beers. I seems like a fairly strait forward recipe, but he said on the podcast that you secondary the beer with brett for 3 months. I assume that that is with a brett containing yeast packet. If I wanted to do this with dregs from orval bottles would it still be 3 months? Seems like all the info I have gathered so far points to much longer secondaries. I do all my bottling with grolsh swing tops so I know they can take more pressure, but is there a reason for the shorter secondary. I looked at the 2 month orval thread on here and it seems that if you age orval longer it picks up more character with time, but couldn't that be done in a carboy?

Have you brewed something this way? Does bottling sooner take oxidation out of the equation?

And off topic from this post. My first gallon batch is now showing signs of a pellicle forming! Thats pretty cool and also a little disturbing to look at. In a couple of months if I wanted to taste it how bad is it to disturb the pellicle?

 

[Almighty]

ashmgee - I'm glad someone is getting some use from the info.

An Orval clone is where a lot of people start when getting into wild beers and using dregs. Mainly because it is really easy and the results are great. I have not used Orval dregs, but similar. (I have a few bottles of Orval waiting for a vertical tasting). I have read several accounts of great success.

To answer your questions:
3 months?
Time limits don't work well for wild beers (or any beers for that matter) because they depend on so many factors. I have used a bottle of Mikkeler It's Alright dregs in a gallon which supposedly used the same Orval Brett B strain. (reminds me I need to do a tasting)

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/03/dreg-series-mikkeller-its-alright.html

The beer was stabilized and bottled in about 3 or 4 months. But that involved checking the gravity twice.

Orval is a very interesting beer and you should try to do a vertical tasting of some, fresh, 1 year old and 2 year old vintages. You will see a big difference.

The issue with bottling is that it will pick up carbonation as it ages and without brewing the same beer for a hundred years you can't be certain how much it will carbonate. So to be safe us homebrewers wait till it stabilizes. If you do the math, every gravity point drop is around .5 volume of CO2. I'm not sure what the Grolsch bottles are rated for so do your research.

No worries on disturbing the pellicle you will just want to avoid doing it very often and try not to completely destroy it. I take sample every 3 months and don't have a problem with oxidation or acetic acid. Oxidation from bulk aging is really not a problem with these types of beer.

I have never been convinced that bulk aging is much different than bottle aging (unless using a barrel or wood aging). The main issue is to avoid over carbonation.

In Summary,
Go for it. Brew a nice dry blond base beer that will finish low. (The lower it finishes the less concern with over carbonation.) In secondary, add a bottle or 2 (anymore probably won't make a difference) of Orval. Check the gravity at 2 months and 3 months. If no drop in gravity, bottle to 2.5-3 Volumes and make sure your bottles can handle up to 4-5 Volumes and you should be safe.

 

[dougdecinces]

Bayerischer Bahnhof Leipziger Porticus - what a cool sounding beer - where did you find that bottle?

If it is bottle conditioned I would imagine the Brett is still viable. Make a small starter in the bottle to find out.

And a persimmon brown ale with Brett sounds very good. I wonder what strain of Brett is in the Bayerischer. You may be able to email the brewer and ask. I find most people in this industry are happy to share info.

I added persimmons to a pale base beer with Russian River dregs and I'm looking forward to see how those flavors mesh.

Sorry for the delay in response. I just cracked this open today. It had a wonderful brett aroma (balsamic and barnyard mostly). Unfortunately, it didn't taste nearly as funky as it smelled. You can tell there was a slight brett influence, but it was mostly overrun by the roasted malts.

I got it from a fine wine and beer retailer here in Indy. It hasn't been rated a whole lot on beeradvocate, so it must be a bit of a rare find. The shophand recommended it to me.

I just made a small 1 cup starter. Time to see if it is viable. I would love to have this in my persimmon brown.

 

[Guess42]

Another thought, what dregs have you used so far? Could this smell be an over-the-top Belgian phenol?

Could be, I fermented two of them spontaneously for a month and then added Jolly pumpkin dregs. As it was smelling exactly like the bung I assumed it was that. I'll wait to see if the third (S05 and Hansenns) develops the same smell.

 

[othellomcbane]

Random-ish question: when you bottle these 1 gallon batches, do you use a regular bottling bucket, or some kind of... mini bottling bucket? I always have trouble getting that last little bit out of the bucket, and with such a small batch to begin with, I'd worry about losing any of it.

 

[TheCrimsonSquirrel]

Great idea!

So I have a new idea when it comes to making sour beer. So here are the complaints that I often hear about making sour beer:
1) Don't want to mess up the rest of your equipment
2) You don't have enough space to store the beer
3) You don't want to buy more equipment just to store beer
4) It can take a long time and you might not end up with a good beer.

I think I have the answer, well at least for myself. With the exception of a few styles (Flanders Red, Oud Bruin, and pLambic) I have decided to brew small 1 gal batches. By doing this I can use 1 gal jugs that are pretty cheap ($5.50 with cider at Whole Foods or $8 at the Homebrew Store). I brew every 3 weeks so by then I can drink a gallon of cider (without too many of the bad consequences), the other alternative which I have tried is to take whatever yeast I'm using at that time and pitch some in the store cider.

Ok so you now you either think yeah I like doing small batches for the ability to test an idea OR you think they are a waste of time and expensive. For you that think the later here is how I appease you. Another problem with making sour beers is that they do not perform well when the IBUs are high. So my idea is after making my wort and bringing it to a boil, I will add my bittering hops. And within a specified time depending on the amount of IBUs you want I will run-off some wort into my gallon container. Yes I understand it is boiling, but I have preheated the container under hot water and have not had a problem. I then cool this wort in the sink.

For yeast I do not buy any commercial yeast because to me that is cost prohibitive but I will pitch the dregs from a sour beer. This is nice because I have a great excuse to buy great beer and I have a nice beer to drink as I finish making the rest of the base batch. I try to buy a beer that I want my beer to have similar results. Make sure that you cool the bottle and let it settle, the longer the better. Pour the beer slowly and stop with about an ounce left in the bottle. Swish this remaining beer up very well (~minute), then pitch into you gallon container.

For these beers, I am fermenting that at ambient temperature which is 68-75F. I am starting these out using an airlock, then pitch some boiled oak cubes (.2-.4oz) depending on the beer and the taste that I want. I can then bottle these beers with separate tubing and if I like the beer than I can make a full batch the following year and use the gallon container as a starter.


I will update with my results.

Kreik (Old Beersel Framboise dregs)

Sour Pale Common (Petrus dregs)

Black Jolly Sour (Jolly Pumkin Bam Noire dregs)

 

[Almighty]

That is a good question. I have ended up using kegs (usually my 2.5 gal version) as my bottling bucket. I lose less than a few ounces and reduce the risk of oxidation.

I tilt the keg and pour the beer from the jug into the keg. With these small batches there is really no need to risk infection by racking the beer. Plus I probably pick up less oxygen this way. Then I dump in my priming sugar and yeast if needed. Purge the keg and swirl the keg to get good mixing. Then set my regulator at 1-2 psi and fill bottles with my picnic tap.

I typically get 8 or 9 - 12oz beers plus a 4 oz hydrometer sample. But it really depends on the batch (fill level and amount of fruit added).

 

[dougdecinces]

Sorry for the delay in response. I just cracked this open today. It had a wonderful brett aroma (balsamic and barnyard mostly). Unfortunately, it didn't taste nearly as funky as it smelled. You can tell there was a slight brett influence, but it was mostly overrun by the roasted malts.

I got it from a fine wine and beer retailer here in Indy. It hasn't been rated a whole lot on beeradvocate, so it must be a bit of a rare find. The shophand recommended it to me.

I just made a small 1 cup starter. Time to see if it is viable. I would love to have this in my persimmon brown.

So two nights ago, I took my brown ale and transferred some on to 2 one-gallon jugs each with 2 lbs of smushed persimmons. I had half a gallon left over, so I bottled it as is. I pitched the dregs of the Porticus in to one of the jugs and left the other be. Best I can tell, they used Brett Claussenii. I've read that export stouts and porters sometimes naturally obtained a mild brett character, so this would jive with the style of beer.

I wanted to wait longer to pitch to see if my Brett starter was 100% viable, but I needed to free up a 5 gallon carboy. Fermentation has started again in both gallon jugs.

Now I want to know what I can expect from this. I checked the FG and it is 1.011 down from 1.046. The persimmons should add a few gravity points. The ale sits at about 21 IBU and really seems like a perfect vehicle for the Brett. If left alone, how low should I expect the FG to go? Should I heat up an ounce or two of DME and pitch it to feed my brett?

 

[Almighty]

Sounds pretty good. I just bottled 1 gallon of my Belgian Golden Strong with Russian River dregs and 1 lb of fresh then frozen persimmons. It's about 14 months old and is now getting very sour. Some of that is probably due to the acidity of the persimmons.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/10/dreg-series-russian-river-golden-sour.html

I personally really like darker beers that have a bit of roast and funk. I'm getting excited about my Old Ale that was pitched with Brett C and has been aging for a year.

The persimmons probably won't add much alcohol depending on their sugar content because of the amount of offsetting water.

It is about impossible to guess the final gravity. It just depends on so many variables. What temp did you mash? Mash thickness? What Sacc strain? and even if I did know that it is still a guess.

My advice would be to let it go for a few months. Measure gravity and take a taste. Then adjust from there. You can add more fruit, dextrose, lactose, DME, fresh wort or nothing. What you add depends on where you envision the beer going.

 

[dougdecinces]

Thank you for the quick response. I mashed at 152 using the BiaB method. I tried to mash higher, but did not hit my temperature like I wanted. I used S04 as my yeast. My question about the FG was more about me making sure that what I did can produce some level of funk. For now I'll leave it alone and check back on it some time in late winter.

And I'm interested myself in trying a a strong, dark sour ale. Porticus would have been perfect had the funk been upped 20%. I plan on doing a Kate the Great clone and try to sour a gallon of that. I have a bottle JP Oro De Calabaza, but it's a couple years old. I may try something else for my souring.

 

[Almighty]

Let me clarify something about adding bugs. I should really change the title of this thread from "sour" to "wild" (actually I need a better name since these yeasts and bacteria aren't really wild anymore)

If you add just Brettanomyces, depending on the strain, you may or may not get any sourness. The amount of acid produced also depends on the amount of oxygen and available food sources. And most typically Brett will produce acetic acid.

If oxygen and the food sources are kept low then very little or no acid will be produced. But you will still develop the funky smells and flavors that Brett is known for. And the amount of funkiness is mostly dependent on the amount of time from my experience. Orval is a great example of this.

Most of the souring will come from pediococcus and/or lactobacillus. The are lactic acid producers which also happens to be the most mild and preferred acid. So if a certain level of sourness is wanted then make sure that these bacteria have food when they are active in the wort.

The reason I say this is because you need to know what organisms are in the dregs and condition of your wort so that you know the possibilities of the finished beer.

For example, I like roasty, malty beers with funk, but in my opinion I don't think that very much sourness mixes well with roast. So if I'm adding dregs to achieve this, I will first ferment out the beer with a relatively high attenuating English strain then add dregs that are Brett only. It is also important to make the wort knowing it will be aged for a long time, so I would mash extra high to ensure the malt and body feel full.