E-BIAB... Is it worth it?

[Ashevillain]

I have been stoked on EBIAB ever since I first learned about it. I even bought a new 15 gal spike bk with a 1.5"tc for a future element addition.

But the more I read and the closer I get to pulling triggers on a build, the more I seem to find that indicates brewing on EBIAB its not quite as relaxing as it originally sounded.

To me the amazing pros are:

-Can easily maintain consistent mash temps by setting temp with a controller and recirculating. When the temp which is kept distributed by pump drops a couple degrees, controller triggers element to fire and adjusts automatically. Set and forget essentially.

-Indoor boiling


I keep reading horror stories about burnt batches, all the different speculations as to why it happened, pumps causing dry firing, having to jump through more hoops with equipment just to get the EBIAB rig to not destroy the beer. This sounds way harder than traditional BIAB, which is not what I want to believe... But I sure as hell don't want to invest into something that will make brewing frustrating. I love it too much!

Is it worth it? Can I build a rig that makes mashing a breeze compared to propane and insulation? I'm definitely back on the fence about it all now, but still the dream for me is a easier, more consistent indoor brew day on an automated electrical single vessel system.

If you have an opinion, a success or horror story, or any suggestions please share.

Cheers!

 

[Horseflesh]

I just switched to an E-BIAB-ish system and so far I really like it.

As you noted there are some points of failure that don't exist in traditional AG brewing. I made some of those posts about scorching myself. But if you have good gear, the problems are manageable. You just have to learn your gear, and when in doubt, be conservative on pump speed (so you don't expose the element) and element power during the boil.

My first brew day with my new system I did a multi-step mash that I wouldn't even have attempted on my previous Igloo cooler system. Like, I could have done it, but... What a hassle! But on E-BIAB, I stirred the mash a few times but the computer and the pump did all the hard work. I hit each temperature step precisely. It was awesome.

Not sparging is awesome. Quicker chilling by whirlpooling with a pump is awesome. Having easy repeatability is awesome.

Cleaning still sucks though!

My brew day hasn't gotten that much shorter however. It takes a full 5 hours to do a batch, including cleaning, if I am working by myself. But while my total time spent brewing has not decreased by much, it is more relaxing since the computer is managing mash temperatures and chilling is now automated. I have time to clean as I go, and do new things like playing with my pH meter.

Bottom line, I am a fan. If you can find the right gear I think you will be too.

 

[Ashevillain]

Thanks for the reply Horse. That is a sick little rig you got! I want to piece something solid together as well, but I guess what I am trying to avoid is spending money on something that will cause problems, or require unexpected or unwieldy gear to function properly. I noticed several people who have ran into scorching problems have either abandoned their pumps or had to buy submersible pumps which come off as awkward and out of place to me.

Im guessing a simpler route is a manual element controller and no pump... then its more similar to regular biab, but the control and temperature distribution is so much more appealing.

I've noticed a lot of people either scorch due to their pump during mash, or due to not stirring well before/during boil. What I want to know more definitively is whether a standard set of practices can give one a consistent assurance of avoiding these problems in the future, just like non electric brewing has a pretty standard set of practices to avoid most batch disasters.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have 30 batches on my recirculating eBIAB rig and never scorched a batch. I can see running the pump too fast having a problem.

 

[Horseflesh]

What I want to know more definitively is whether a standard set of practices can give one a consistent assurance of avoiding these problems in the future, just like non electric brewing has a pretty standard set of practices to avoid most batch disasters.

I think that the "standard" best practices depend a whole lot on the specific rig, gas or electric. I'm starting to develop best practices for my rig, such as:

- begin mash with pump speed at 50%, then increase to 75% after 15 minutes
- maintain boil at 65% element power in cold weather

These numbers have too much to do with the specifics of my system to help most other people, but you should be able to develop your own guidelines in a few batches.

I decided to buy a well regarded pre-made system so that I could have more assurances that the system WOULD work. If I made my own, it would not be as nice--I know my limits. It would also take months of fiddling around which is time taken away from recipe development, and that is what I am really interested in.

If you want to minimize risk, and get to best practices more quickly, you might consider buying/building a system with a lot of other users rather than making one. If you roll your own I would expect more bumps in the road.

 

[Ashevillain]

If you want to minimize risk, and get to best practices more quickly, you might consider buying/building a system with a lot of other users rather than making one. If you roll your own I would expect more bumps in the road.

I dont plan to make any components of the controller or do any sort of diy modifications to hardware, instead I think it would be best to source reliable hardware and put it together. Do you mean find people interested in sharing the system to help put it together?

The replies have given me some reassurance that EBIAB can be reliable and that many of the scorch anecdotes could have been from inexperience with their new rig.

You said you're most interested in recipe building now; that makes me think that everything process-wise must be pretty consistent. I'm curious though. Do you think that switching to electric has improved the quality of your batches? More than convenience, the consistency appealed to me the most. Did the consistency you gained moving from gas to automated electric have a significant impact on your beer quality?

 

[Horseflesh]

I was trying to say that, however it happens, being part of a community is helpful. If you know that there is a forum full of people using the same pump, element, etc, then you are not starting from scratch with every question, or researching parts all the time. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it just wasn't for me.

I have only finished and drank 2 batches with my new setup but I believe it will help me make better beer, yes. Now that I do not have to worry about mash precision at all I am more free to change variables without worrying about being able to execute correctly.

If you are the kind of brewer who always hits their numbers already, brewing with a computer may not help you. I was not that brewer, and so found electric to be a wonderful convenience which I do expect to produce better beer, too.

 

[elbinwyp]

Skip the recirc and enjoy the simplicity of BIAB. If you insulate or even jus throw a blanket on or two you will get minimal temp drop. Move to 10 gallon batches and it will hold heat really well. I just don't see the pump being worth the work/complexity. Ebiab without recirc has cut my brew day time and stress down immensely.

 

[ch19]

Skip the recirc and enjoy the simplicity of BIAB. If you insulate or even jus throw a blanket on or two you will get minimal temp drop. Move to 10 gallon batches and it will hold heat really well. I just don't see the pump being worth the work/complexity. Ebiab without recirc has cut my brew day time and stress down immensely.

I agree. In my opinion, the simplicity of crushing fine and insulating outweigh the benefits from recirculating on my eBIAB system. However, I do like the ability to set up the system the night before a brew, and wake up to hot strike water, ready to dough in.

 

[Ashevillain]

@horse thanks for the info man. Without automated control, hitting numbers is not 100% attainable for anyone, and that's ok for me. But like you I'm interested in seeing what can be accomplished with that sort of control. I'm curious about the tangible differences in control that ebiab can offer, but not entirely sure about the difference in quality that control provides.

Anyone who can attest to quality improvements after going from gas to automated electric please share.

@elbin I think i will start out that way, i really enjoy simplicity and strangely thats why im drawn to ebiab. How do you feel the element works without recirc? Are there any measures you take aside from slight insulation to ensure you get an even mash and prevent any scorching?

After a few short posts i'm feeling much more confident that ebiab is a solid method being used happily and effectively, thanks HBT.

 

[Ashevillain]

I do like the ability to set up the system the night before a brew, and wake up to hot strike water, ready to dough in.

How do you do this?

 

[elbinwyp]

I agree. In my opinion, the simplicity of crushing fine and insulating outweigh the benefits from recirculating on my eBIAB system. However, I do like the ability to set up the system the night before a brew, and wake up to hot strike water, ready to dough in.

I use the ezboil for control. It's amazing.

 

[Berchabar]

Sub

 

[elbinwyp]

I use the ezboil for control. It's amazing.

@horse thanks for the info man. Without automated control, hitting numbers is not 100% attainable for anyone, and that's ok for me. But like you I'm interested in seeing what can be accomplished with that sort of control. I'm curious about the tangible differences in control that ebiab can offer, but not entirely sure about the difference in quality that control provides.

Anyone who can attest to quality improvements after going from gas to automated electric please share.

@elbin I think i will start out that way, i really enjoy simplicity and strangely thats why im drawn to ebiab. How do you feel the element works without recirc? Are there any measures you take aside from slight insulation to ensure you get an even mash and prevent any scorching?

After a few short posts i'm feeling much more confident that ebiab is a solid method being used happily and effectively, thanks HBT.

I use auberin ez boil for control. I do not fire the element during the mash. Heat it to strike temp, kill element, now you have normal BIAB. I have had no issues with conversion or hitting my OG. Throw a few blankets over kettle, stir at 20-30 minutes, and if I am feeling frisky I will pull the bag and get heating for boil.

 

[Ashevillain]

I plan to do all 10gal batches so i suppose inside it would be very easy to keep temp. So you heat strike water absent of mash? Or do you add it and get your exact temp first?

Edit: Whoa, I just checked out the easy boil... It is far more affordable than the majority of controllers i've checked out. Why? At that price I could go electric soon.

 

[madscientist451]

Is E-BIAB worth it? To me, NO, it isn't. Sure, an E-BIAB rig would be nice to have, but its not at the top of my priority list at the moment. But everyone has their own wants, needs and desires, so perhaps it WOULD be worth it to you.
If you don't have fermentation control or a kegging set up yet, you may want to spend your $ on those things first. But again, everyone sees different values in different things, so go what what you think is best.

 

[ch19]

How do you do this?

I'm based in New Zealand where mains power is 10A. I designed my rig to run on 10A so that I can easily make use of off-the-shelf components. I plug my controller into a timer power switch and fill the kettle with water the night before a brew. The power kicks on in the early morning so when I get up the strike water is ready. Since I mill my grain the day ahead, I can dough in, go eat breakfast and get on with the day while the mash is doing its thing. For me, this is the biggest advantage of an eBIAB system.

 

[ch19]

I use the ezboil for control. It's amazing.

I've heard good things about the ez boil. I use the MyPIN TD4 in my controller. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1482722421.387871.jpg

 

[ch19]

Double post

 

[doug293cz]

I plan to do all 10gal batches so i suppose inside it would be very easy to keep temp. So you heat strike water absent of mash? Or do you add it and get your exact temp first?

Edit: Whoa, I just checked out the easy boil... It is far more affordable than the majority of controllers i've checked out. Why? At that price I could go electric soon.

The EZBoil is not a turn-key solution. You have to add an SSR, switches and an enclosure at a minimum. The actual control panel can vary from simple to complex, depending on the features that you want included. Here's an example of about the simplest control circuit you can put together with the EZBoil. Note that this design uses an older version of the EZBoil, and the newer DSPR120 and DSPR300 have different terminal assignments. You can even simplify this design by leaving out the switch that controls power to the DSPR, and you can leave out the fuses if you use 10AWG wire everywhere.



Brew on

 

[Horseflesh]

If you don't have fermentation control or a kegging set up yet, you may want to spend your $ on those things first.

I would agree with that.

 

[wilserbrewer]

E-BIAB can be as simple or complex as you want. It can cost a small fortune or be done relatively inexpensively.

Dead simple IMO for 10 gallon batches would be a 20 gallon pot, bag, 4500w element, 240v gfi power, 30 amp switch and power cord.

Hot rod heatstick from brewhardware.com is worth a look as well.

 

[Ashevillain]

Ive had all ferm control and kegging gear for a while now, and i deff agree they were to two best things i've done for quality control and ease of use. Would never buy/reccomend any serious hardware before taking care of those.

I currently have a 15gal spike kettle designed for ebiab with a tc port, i am hoping this can take care of most average abv 10gal batches (was so close to getting 20gal but the cosmetic defect one sold right before i pulled the trigger).

Thanks for all the info i have a lot of pathways to research. So far i am pretty confident that i wont go recirc immediately, now i need to decide how simple/complex i want the controller to be and the tradeoffs.

@wilserbrewer does this mean the element switch is a simple on/off 100% or 0%. This would mean you never turn the element on after mashing in until the boil right? Ive read several scorch stories about people whove tried to raise their temp and either scorched the bag or had sediment get scorched.

Im leaning towardsa a controller that can grow into something more complex but still very interested in the idea of having something very simple if the pitfalls are avoidable.

 

[wilserbrewer]

@wilserbrewer does this mean the element switch is a simple on/off 100% or 0%. This would mean you never turn the element on after mashing in until the boil right? Ive read several scorch stories about people whove tried to raise their temp and either scorched the bag or had sediment get scorched. .

Yes, on / off. Manually hit strike temp as you would on any basic system and turn the element off. Dough in and wrap the kettle with a couple blankets. 10 gallon batches hold steady temp pretty well.

Remove bag and boil at 100%. IME 4500w will boil 13 gallons nicely in a 20 gallon pot.

If you screw up and need to add heat, I think constantly stirring next to the element would be sufficient to avoid scorching. One could also stir the mash with a hot rod heat stick. Or less preferable one could raise the bag slightly and fire the element for a couple minutes.

Certainly not the "best" way, but better than brewing outdoors in the winter w propane IMO.

 

[doug293cz]

....

Thanks for all the info i have a lot of pathways to research. So far i am pretty confident that i wont go recirc immediately, now i need to decide how simple/complex i want the controller to be and the tradeoffs.

@wilserbrewer does this mean the element switch is a simple on/off 100% or 0%. This would mean you never turn the element on after mashing in until the boil right? Ive read several scorch stories about people whove tried to raise their temp and either scorched the bag or had sediment get scorched.

Im leaning towardsa a controller that can grow into something more complex but still very interested in the idea of having something very simple if the pitfalls are avoidable.

A simple on/off switch can work if your heating element output is well balanced to the load being heated. If the element is overpowered, you may end up turning the switch on and off a lot, which will get old in a hurry. For automatic temperature and boil vigor control, check back to post #20 in this thread. This is a simple controller that could be used just to control boil vigor, if you don't want to heat the mash. But it can also control mash temp (with stirring or recirculation.) DSPR110 is obsolete now, so use a DSPR120 or DSPR300. If you then want to add other functions to your control panel, this design is expandable.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

I would contend that it's really impractical to use an element wattage that fits the boil vigor you want because the ramp time is painfully long (in my opinion). It's like a car with just enough horsepower to keep a car at highway speeds with the pedal smashed to the floor.

 

[doug293cz]

I would contend that it's really impractical to use an element wattage that fits the boil vigor you want because the ramp time is painfully long (in my opinion). It's like a car with just enough horsepower to keep a car at highway speeds with the pedal smashed to the floor.

Very true. This is where a second element, switched separately, can make the system more workable. Personally, I wouldn't use anything other than an EZBoil controller with a single element, but everyone gets to make their own choices, based on whatever criteria are most important to them.

Brew on

 

[elbinwyp]

To further explain myself, switching to ebiab allowed home brewing to remain viable for me. Before we had kids, I could pull off 6 hour brew days in the garage, lugging equipment up and down basement steps, and checking temps regularly. It was "my" time.

Well add a kid to the mix and this time and chit-show of a production was no longer justifiable. My wife enjoys having homebrew around and we both know that if it isnt, we buy expensive craft beer. So we agreed to invest in ebiab (for me this was a simple controller, Bobby's TC integrated element and a GFCI breaker). I can now complete a brew day in under 4 hours, can set temps and wait for an alarm while upstairs, keep all equipment in basement, and can be far more present to the family while brewing.

So, is it worth it? For me, it was how I kept home brewing a part of my chaotic life.

 

[trav77]

Glad to hear you post this. I'm in the process of switching to eBIAB for exactly the same reasons. I could have written your post myself.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I would contend that it's really impractical to use an element wattage that fits the boil vigor you want because the ramp time is painfully long (in my opinion).

With all due respect Bobby, I disagree. The difference between 4500w and 5500w heating time 14 gal from 70 - 212 is about a whopping 12 minutes.
https://www.easycalculation.com/physics/thermodynamics/water-boiling-time-calculator.

What I think is painful is the poor guy brewing outside in the Wisconsin winter because he thinks electric brewing is way beyond his budget and or skill set. I feel lots of folks take a look in this section of the forum and see a wiring diagram like posted above and their hair catches fire, and they run and hug their simple propane burner. A simple fixed wattage approach is within the budget and skillset of the masses. The Grainfather uses a fixed wattage approach to boil and it sure doesn't seem to be hurting their sales?

It's like a car with just enough horsepower to keep a car at highway speeds with the pedal smashed to the floor.

Sorry, I don't like this comparison, highway speed for a kettle is boiling. Once you hit boiling there is a large plateau of energy released and utilized turning the water to vapor, and there really isn't a precise power requirement as there would be in the car / highway example. In my experience there is a pretty wide range of power that will produce an acceptable boil due to the large amount of energy needed for the liquid to gas phase change. Sure, perhaps nicer to turn down a 5500w element to 3800w to produce 1.2 gallons boil off as opposed to running a 4500w element and boiling off 2 gallons. A generously sized kettle is needed.

The Model T Ford was a one hell of an improvement over the horse and buggy. Build or buy the Tesla of E-BIAB rigs if you have the means.

The point I'm trying to make is that I feel a lot of our fellow homebrewers are suffering because the bulk of the information available leads them to believe an E-kettle is either way too expensive or way too complicated for them to build.

Budget controller $11.78


Just as you contend that a fixed wattage boil kettle is really impractical, I feel the simplicity of it makes it extremely practical. Surely all of those Grainfather lovers out there can't be wrong?

 

[Bobby_M]

I probably shouldn't say impractical.
I run my 5500w on 60% output for a vigorous but controlled boil, which equates to 3300 watts. Since there aren't many 3300 watt elements, we'll either go 3000 or 3500. I'll grant the 3500 for this argument. That's 35 minutes to ramp to dough in and another 18 to ramp to boil. On 5500 watts, it's 20min and 11min. While it's true that most people wouldn't build a controller for a few hundred out of pocket to save 22 minutes of heating time, there are other factors you have to consider. First, will you be in front of the pot the moment the thermo reads 155F? No? Factor in time to ditch some hot water and replace with cold. Are you there to watch for the boil over?

I'll modify my position because I don't think fixed wattage systems are impractical. More precisely, I think that given the marginal additional cost of a controller like the EZboil, it is practical to plan to integrate it into your overall electric brewing plans even if you don't plan to let it heat during the mash.

1. Fast and unsupervised ramp to strike temps.
2. Regulated mash temps, should you choose to use it.
3. Built in mash timer with alarm.
4. Built in ramp to boil, with anti-boil over mechanism (and alarm).
5. Quick knob-style intensity adjustment with digital display.
6. Boil timer with end alarm (you could set this timer to your hop additions if you wish).

In addition to just the mash and boil, you can now do long term kettle souring projects and Sou Vide cooking in the same pot.

The last few things I'll say about fixed wattage kettles is that they push you into the same typical costs associated with running a new 240v GFCI circuit but don't make full use of the available current. Putting a 3000 or 3500 watt element on a circuit that can handle 6000 just feels like getting ripped off to me. Finally, if you have a kettle size that allows for different batch sizes, no one fixed wattage is ideal.

I don't know many GF buyers that are completely satisfied with the way the power was designed. Most think the boil is weak and everyone thinks the ramp times are painfully slow which is why I've sold so many hotrods to GF users. Even the simple controller has a low and high setting for mashing and boiling.

 

[ch19]

To further explain myself, switching to ebiab allowed home brewing to remain viable for me. Before we had kids, I could pull off 6 hour brew days in the garage, lugging equipment up and down basement steps, and checking temps regularly. It was "my" time.

Well add a kid to the mix and this time and chit-show of a production was no longer justifiable. My wife enjoys having homebrew around and we both know that if it isnt, we buy expensive craft beer. So we agreed to invest in ebiab (for me this was a simple controller, Bobby's TC integrated element and a GFCI breaker). I can now complete a brew day in under 4 hours, can set temps and wait for an alarm while upstairs, keep all equipment in basement, and can be far more present to the family while brewing.

So, is it worth it? For me, it was how I kept home brewing a part of my chaotic life.

This is me too! The ease of automation that eBIAB enables is what I value the most. I can brew a beer with less time spent watching the kettle and more time watching my kids.

 

[Ashevillain]

Thanks for all the input, i feel like this thread should be a pretty helpful resource for anyone interested in pursuing ebiab. I think my plans will be to go with a controller that has the capability to be fully automated and adjustable, but use it simply without recirc for a while.