Dumping a Barleywine..

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L0-FI

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Should I dump this barleywine? I was scanning the sour beer image thread - and this looks like a wild yeast/bacteria scenario. Primary went 4wks (glass) & just racked to secondary 3 days ago. Part of me was hoping it could have been wax from the 6#'s of raw honey that I used (two separate full vol 60min boils -SG: 1.122 FG: 1.022, 13.13abv) - but then again - I feel like I'm trying to convince myself that it is not infected. Smells great (i can smell floral/fruity esters, but not cider-y) & tastes great(oddly not hot from alcohol). Should I dump or what? Is this a definable yeast/bacteria? What if i let it sour? Rack into a bucket and try skimming? Let it go an see what happens? Should i quarantine this from all other things beer? Of course this happen to my most expensive/labor intensive brew to date!! ImageUploadedByHome Brew1404300811.092828.jpg


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Definitely do not throw it out until you let it finish up and you taste it. Hard to tell from the photo if that is just patches of bubbles/yeast from normal ferment or patches of pellicle...... But you said you racked "3 days ago".... It generally takes a while for a pellicle to form - even when directly pitching souring bugs.

I would say that no matter what, you want to let this ride just as you had originally planned. When it gets closer to the time you had planned to bottle or keg, draw some out and taste it to see where you are at.
 
Nothing in there is going to hurt you, ride it out. Looks like even just some CO2 bubbles from some light secondary fermentation (Hard to tell from the pic). Either way, let it go and see what comes out.
 
Yeah, it's a little difficult to tell, but I would be surprised if that's a pellicle. Why in the world would you even think of dumping it if it smells and tastes good? Even if it gets contaminated, let it sit for a year. It's a shot in the dark, but it could turn into something good. I have 10 gallons of a contaminated Wee Heavy that I'm going to experiment with fruit, Brettanomyces, and blending. Right now it just tastes like tart cherries, quite delicious even given the ugly pellicle it formed.
 
If you are short of fermenter space, its an excellent legitimate reason(aka:excuse) to purchase more fermenter space. I freaked out on the imperial red rye IPA I transfered to seconday as it looked exactly like that for a couple days, itll drop out over time. (like every said, if it smells good and tastes good, as well, it could turn into something really awesome IF it is actually infected)
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. I recall a brew friend of mine stating that nothing will kill you in an 'infected' batch. I was just more curious if someone has something like this happen. - and if that had an unavoidable horrid tasting outcome (regardless if it tastes great now) since I was going to bulk age for approx 6 months. Those sour beer images certainly look funky!
It could be just c02, but Ill see how it changes with time.
Blending seems interesting. I have 2 meads going and an 'imperial braggot' could be a neat experiment.
I look at even brew as an experiment, so this will certainly be one. ill upload more images in the next few days to log changes. It was just a shock when I peeked at my BW baby last night


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There's a lot of alcohol in that beer, which helps to fight off bugs. If it starts growing something maybe up indeed.

For a secondary to age in there's too much headspace. Not much you can do about it now, but for your next aging brew make the batch a gallon larger so you can fill the secondary all the way to 2-3 inches from the top. Then bottle the leftover.

If you have CO2 you can purge that headspace.
 
I would leave it and sit on it. If it is infected then maybe it'll be a good sour. Let it ride.
 
those look like like rafts of CO2 bubbles to me.

The thing people don't get is that infections are like Trees falling in the woods...if no one is there, does it make a sound?

Similarly, if you can't taste/smell an infection, is it infected?

In other words, if it is infected: You'll know.
 
Ya - Ill be letting this one ride for sure. Thanks again guys! It also has increased my interest at attempting a sour beer, rather than potentially stumbling upon one..


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Ya - Ill be letting this one ride for sure. Thanks again guys! It also has increased my interest at attempting a sour beer, rather than potentially stumbling upon one..


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Do it!! I just stepped into the sour world, and it's addicting!
 
A 13% barleywine is probably a tough nut to crack for an infection. Just in case, you can send it to me for proper testing. :mug:
 
Alright - so it was just rafts!! It all settled out! I was quick to suspect infection based on a secondary that didn't look familiar. I've done only about. 20 or so batches and never came across it before.


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Yeah I just had my 3rd infection in 2 1/2 years, a pellicle is pretty obvious. There is a film and white bubbles with white debris and often white strands.

None of my infected batches tasted any different, they all were great, but I chilled and kegged them. Bulk aging is different, glad it worked out.

I'm about to get into sours, the bucket from my just infected batch and auto siphon volunteered to be for sours only now (how nice of them!)

I bought 2 sours from my favorite sour brewery, Cascade Barrel House, to pitch the dregs into my 1st sour batch. Then figure out how to wait a year...


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Yeah I just had my 3rd infection in 2 1/2 years, a pellicle is pretty obvious. There is a film and white bubbles with white debris and often white strands.

None of my infected batches tasted any different, they all were great, but I chilled and kegged them. Bulk aging is different, glad it worked out.

I'm about to get into sours, the bucket from my just infected batch and auto siphon volunteered to be for sours only now (how nice of them!)

I bought 2 sours from my favorite sour brewery, Cascade Barrel House, to pitch the dregs into my 1st sour batch. Then figure out how to wait a year...


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I was thinking the same about my thief/siphon if my brew was infected! (primary was in glass) - sorta like a 'welp, since this equipment touched a sour beer (so I thought) - I might as well dedicate these to sours instead of tossing them'

I just dove more into some sour articles last night and it seems so interesting!

I also though my 90 shilling had some sour off flavors from the bourbon soaked oak chips (didn't bother to heat up it- just soaked for 3weeks before adding all contents to secondary). It wasn't until last night that i found out that unsanitized oak is sometimes used for sours. it has now been in the bottle 3 months and the harshness/sourness is fading into the background. It was my first experiment with oak so I cannot tell if that is the standard progression of oak flavors, or possibly a little funkiness. I'm going to wait a couple more months before trying any more. I will say that the slight addition of peated malt mixed with the oaky sourness tastes pretty complex..


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Yeah I just had my 3rd infection in 2 1/2 years, a pellicle is pretty obvious. There is a film and white bubbles with white debris and often white strands.

None of my infected batches tasted any different, they all were great, but I chilled and kegged them. Bulk aging is different, glad it worked out.

One has to question that if your pellicle-forming beers don't taste any different from your other non-infected beers, are your beers really infected (or do you know what a pellicle really looks like)? Or, are all of your beers infected and that is why they all taste the same?

Point being: An infected beer SHOULD taste, smell, look different. If it doesn't taste/smell/look different, is it really infected?
 
I figure they didnt taste different because I cold crashed, kegged and drank them fairly quick. Chilling to low 30s really puts a damper on the bugs. If I bottled, that would have been 3 more weeks in each case for the infection to progress and produce off flavors.

I also only primary for 2-3 weeks max, enough time for an infection to start, but not really affect the flavor yet, at least in my limited experience. If it was frequent, I'd re-look things, but 1 batch/ year isn't so bad.


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I figure they didnt taste different because I cold crashed, kegged and drank them fairly quick. Chilling to low 30s really puts a damper on the bugs. If I bottled, that would have been 3 more weeks in each case for the infection to progress and produce off flavors.

I also only primary for 2-3 weeks max, enough time for an infection to start, but not really affect the flavor yet, at least in my limited experience. If it was frequent, I'd re-look things, but 1 batch/ year isn't so bad.


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If you got enough of an infection to get a pellicle in 2-3 weeks, you got a pretty ripping infection going on. I don't see how you aren't getting off-flavors with that level of infection, but to each their own.

You say you only primary for 2-3 weeks (which is a bit long if you ask me, but that is a topic for another time); that is certainly enough time for an infection to go and kill the flavor of the beer, in MY limited experience (n=1). The infection I had made the beer undrinkable within a week. All the cold crashing in the world wasn't going to make that one better. I'm not interested in further testing, either.

If it were me and I was going on a 1 infected batch/year, I'd be looking at my process. I've had 1 infected batch in about 15 years of homebrewing; I think the consensus is that infections are pretty rare if you are doing everything right.

I'll shut up now.
 
I appreciate the feedback and your perspective. I'm sure they were infected and I'm sure they tasted fine, maybe it is just the type of bug I got. Lacto? Not enough time to sour it? The pellicles were just barely getting started. It's probably time for new buckets, I think maybe bugs are hiding in the lid or in scratches.


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I appreciate the feedback and your perspective. I'm sure they were infected and I'm sure they tasted fine, maybe it is just the type of bug I got. Lacto? Not enough time to sour it? The pellicles were just barely getting started. It's probably time for new buckets, I think maybe bugs are hiding in the lid or in scratches.


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My impression from sour mashing is that the sour character will develop in 36-48 hours. Again, seems like if a pellicle is forming, it would have been soured to the max and back again.
 
Ive made a berlinerweiss using a 48 hr sour mash and it was definitely tart.

These were totally different with no flavor impact. My theory is the hops, ABV, and yeast competition kept it at bay so it was barely starting to take hold visibly on the surface, but hasn't impacted flavor yet.

Lacto doesn't like hops at all so some surface action w/o the bugs being able to take hold in the wort due the the hop AAs makes sense. I always have some leaf hops on the surface in the bucket.

There are gazillions of different bugs with all different mannerisms. In my beginner readings about sours, I've encountered tales of quite varied results with some people getting little tartness pitching bugs (lacto) after a yeast fermentation and aging for a year.

Brett would be totally different, from what little I know I can see that immediately having an effect.


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Send a couple different ones into a good size competition and see if unbiased, blind tasting, by other people reach the same conclusion (there are no off flavors of infection) as you do.

I have to agree that I don't see how you can get a full blown pellicle and also have your beer taste completely fine. Something is not in agreement there. Bacterial infection, wild yeast infection does not produce beer that tastes as it was intended to taste. It may or may not still have a "desirable" flavor - but a "lacto" (or other bug) fermented pale ale or brown ale is not going to taste "normal."
 
Not that any of you were hanging on your seat - but took a gravity reading/ taste today. My lord.

OG: 1.122 // FG: 1.010.
15.1%?!
I included a decent dose of orange blossom honey & a 2hour boil. Brewed on 6/7/14 and still fairly hot (duh) from the alcohol. The aromatics are awesome though - a fairly confrontational red wine and honey character in the nose, but not acidic. The most wine-y smelling BW I've witnessed.

I wonder if a wild yeast is present in the raw honey that I used?
After digging into sour beers (I have not brewed one yet, but reading my books, and picking up a couple bottles a week to get a feel for the 'styles') and experimenting with wild yeast capturing - It would make sense to why I am still seeing co2 rafts after 3 months. It could also explain why this is less malty/thin then my 154F mash would suggest. I guess it is hard to address the body of this beer so early on. The alcohol is definitely adding body too. Either way, this one still needs a LONG time to come together before consumption. Any opinions on how long I should bulk age?
 
Sure! Now I have only brewed about 10 'from-scratch' recipes, so go easy on me! Looking back on it now I probably could have left out all of the Black Patent, but we are always learning. This was my first brew with doing a yeast cocktail approach - since I knew the OG was going to be up there & I had fresh yeast around with new store bought yeast. I also used DME since my 9gal BIAB setup couldn't handle all of the grain I needed.
6/7/14
9gal BIAB
12#'s Muntons Pale Malt
1/4# Chocolate Malt
1/4# Black Paten Malt
6#'s DME (light)
3#'s Orange Blossom Honey
3oz Challenger (60)
1oz Northern Brewer (45)
1oz Northern Brewer (30)
2oz EKG (20)
1oz EKG (5)

WY1028 1L starter
Two mason jars of 2nd Gen 1056 (not all yeast, but typical amount from washing a cake from the previous batch)
WLP099 1L starter (pitched approx 20hrs into active fermentation)

Mash @ 154 for 75mins - Dunk sparge with 1gal
Boil 60 mins
Turn off heat, add Honey & extract.
Resume boil and begin the 60min hop schedule.
Cool, pitch yeast as mentioned above.
I periodically added 4 'squirts' (new unit of measure?) honey every other day for 8 days.
Primary was active for 3 weeks (62 deg), then moved to a part of my house that is around 68-70 deg for the yeast to clean up.

I was also transferring a batch of orange blossom mead on 7/31 so after racking that for it's 3rd time, I dumped the last of the mead in the carboy to my BW fermenter. This is where I believe the wild yeast could have made it's way into the BW - if that is at all possible.

Please note that this is not a 'tried & true' recipe. It is still far too young to my taste to tell how it will end up. I thought the yeast clunked out at around 1.022 (6/28), but when recently tasting (9/11) it dropped to 1.010.
 
Any opinions on how long I should bulk age?
Bulk aging will depend a lot on what temperature. If you bulk age at a colder temp, you will see less yeast autolysis, but it might not change as much over time. If you age warmer, you might get more pronounced flavors from autolysis. Taste can tell you a lot. Were it my beer, I would bulk age longer, at a warmer temp (50's-60's) but rack every couple of months. BUT I have very little experience bulk aging barleywines. I usually age mine in the bottles held at cellar temps.
 
Not that any of you were hanging on your seat - but took a gravity reading/ taste today. My lord.

OG: 1.122 // FG: 1.010.
15.1%?!
I included a decent dose of orange blossom honey & a 2hour boil. Brewed on 6/7/14 and still fairly hot (duh) from the alcohol. The aromatics are awesome though - a fairly confrontational red wine and honey character in the nose, but not acidic. The most wine-y smelling BW I've witnessed.

I wonder if a wild yeast is present in the raw honey that I used?
After digging into sour beers (I have not brewed one yet, but reading my books, and picking up a couple bottles a week to get a feel for the 'styles') and experimenting with wild yeast capturing - It would make sense to why I am still seeing co2 rafts after 3 months. It could also explain why this is less malty/thin then my 154F mash would suggest. I guess it is hard to address the body of this beer so early on. The alcohol is definitely adding body too. Either way, this one still needs a LONG time to come together before consumption. Any opinions on how long I should bulk age?

When was the honey added, in the boil? If so, there's definitely no wild yeast coming from the honey. Even if it were added after the boil, my understanding is that honey is an awful environment for yeast/bacteria to hang out in, so the likelihood of yeast coming from there is still pretty low. Not saying there aren't other sources you could have picked up wild yeast from, but I truly doubt it's the honey.

EDIT: Just saw the note in the recipe on when the honey was added.

At this point, you shouldn't even be concerning yourself with the yeast/CO2 "rafts." It could be any number of reasons, even something as simple as a temperature change. If you form a true pellicle, and you will know when you do, then you know it's been contaminated. Before then, unless it starts to taste sour or funky, you have nothing to worry about, so don't even think about it.

Bulk aging will depend a lot on what temperature. If you bulk age at a colder temp, you will see less yeast autolysis, but it might not change as much over time. If you age warmer, you might get more pronounced flavors from autolysis. Taste can tell you a lot. Were it my beer, I would bulk age longer, at a warmer temp (50's-60's) but rack every couple of months. BUT I have very little experience bulk aging barleywines. I usually age mine in the bottles held at cellar temps.

Autolysis won't be an issue if you rack to secondary. Once. Not every couple of months. The more you rack, the greater the risk of contamination, and there's no need to rack more than once. Just get it off the yeast cake, and you'll be fine. BIB, I'm not meaning to step on your toes, but this is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest racking more than once, let alone as often as every couple months.

I'd let it sit at room temperature, and plan on aging it a year. You can taste it every few months, but I think this will really come into its own after a good long rest. It will need to sit to let the alcohol mellow at the very least.
 
No problem, no toes stepped on. I love that we can all offer our opinions, and then decide who we want to listen to.
Wine makers may rack multiple times during long term aging, in part to avoid off flavors from the yeast. I don't think beer is any different. The main difference may be that wine makers sanitize with sulfite, which had the added benefit of minimizing oxidation. Purging with CO2 could accomplish the same thing for a beer.
 
I was also transferring a batch of orange blossom mead on 7/31 so after racking that for it's 3rd time, I dumped the last of the mead in the carboy to my BW fermenter.

Just curious what the thought process was for adding some mead to the Barley Wine? I have no opinion on right or wrong just an interesting move.
 
Just curious what the thought process was for adding some mead to the Barley Wine? I have no opinion on right or wrong just an interesting move.

A really dry mead could be good for mixing into a barleywine that never wants to finish (over 1.050 range).

Not that I've done this, but this is the first thing that came to mind for me. Could be interesting. A really really dry beer might work, but I don't know many beers (besides sours and some saisons) that finish under 1.003.

It could also just be the sake of fun/experimentation. Would be kind of fun, a little sweet 12% barleywine with tons of left over sugars, blend with an 18-20% dry mead.
 
There's a lot of alcohol in that beer, which helps to fight off bugs. If it starts growing something maybe up indeed.

For a secondary to age in there's too much headspace. Not much you can do about it now, but for your next aging brew make the batch a gallon larger so you can fill the secondary all the way to 2-3 inches from the top. Then bottle the leftover.

If you have CO2 you can purge that headspace.


If you do age in that vessel, I got some glass beads. Boil them and put them in to take up space and force out the air. Just a thought.


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I wouldn't risk it. You're better of dumping it. Actually, let me 'dispose' of it for you.
 
I've been past the point of contemplating dumping - definitely hanging on to this one :). I just got all freaked out soon after primary, like a beginner would.
The reason of adding the leftover mead was purely for fun/experiment. My orange blossom mead smells like the middle of a breezy orange grove - and I vigorously boiled/fermented essentially all of those precious aromatics out of the BW. I realize this mead mix makes this recipe harder to replicate exactly, but I'm not bound exclusively to BJCP guidelines. Let the dice roll.

'Braggot' is a fairly loose term from my understanding (in terms of %'s) so this may be a better descriptor. I am also planning to try a blended braggot with wildflower mead/stout (both in 5gal carboys). For that braggot approach, I will certainly set up a taste test with different measured qty's to find the golden ratio.



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- and until I graduate from biab, I won't touch an AG starting gravity this high with my 9gal pot & bag!!


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