Dry yeast on a big beer (yeast starter question)

[thejuanald]

So I was just getting rolling with my homebrewing, and I had to move across the country, so that got put on the wayside until we got settled in here. Now I'm ready to get a batch going, and I have one question (after figuring everything I needed to do to transfer my brew days from my garage to an apartment):

This batch I am making is a Russian Imperial Stout. It will be pretty big (about OG 1.106). This recipe called for dry yeast (US-05) and I have never used dry yeast. I always make a yeast starter with any batch I have done, but they were all with liquid yeast. I read on here that some people say you should not make a starter with dry yeast, but others said it's fine to do. So can I make a yeast starter with this US-05? If I can't, I will just buy another packet and re-hydrate the two packets together, but if it is at all viable, I would prefer to make a starter. I've had nothing but great experiences using a starter when compared to not using one (plus I tend to make big beers that require one).

Thanks!

 

[iowabrew]

it's not reccomened to make a starter with dry yeast, i'd go the route you're thinking and just buy 2 packs of 05 and rehydrate. This should be plenty of yeast to ferment a big RIS. FWIW i've made many a large beer (1.080+) and exclusively use US05 with great results.

 

[edognight]

I researched the same question once. Some people said a starter with dry yeast is a no no, but I do it often and have good results. In my opinion, the only thing to avoid is completely underpitching yeast. I have pitched low gravity beers on a huge yeast cake, just to see, let them ferment in a primary a month and had very clean and lite tasting beers, but that is not the textbook answer.

I have heard to not make a starter with dry yeast, but I forget why. I seem to remember it is a mild waste of time. I have a three gallon on the fridge fermenting, and it taste very clean, drinkable at two weeks, and it was done with a dry yeast starter. Just my .02$.

 

[thejuanald]

it's not reccomened to make a starter with dry yeast, i'd go the route you're thinking and just buy 2 packs of 05 and rehydrate. This should be plenty of yeast to ferment a big RIS. FWIW i've made many a large beer (1.080+) and exclusively use US05 with great results.

Thanks, I kind of just don't understand the reasoning why a yeast starter wouldn't work for a dry yeast? You're activating the yeast when you re-hydrate, but what harm could it do letting the yeast propagate to the appropriate population?

 

[thejuanald]

I researched the same question once. Some people said a starter with dry yeast is a no no, but I do it often and have good results. In my opinion, the only thing to avoid is completely underpitching yeast. I have pitched low gravity beers on a huge yeast cake, just to see, let them ferment in a primary a month and had very clean and lite tasting beers, but that is not the textbook answer.

I have heard to not make a starter with dry yeast, but I forget why. I seem to remember it is a mild waste of time. I have a three gallon on the fridge fermenting, and it taste very clean, drinkable at two weeks, and it was done with a dry yeast starter. Just my .02$.

Yeah, that was my thought as well. I don't understand the harm in it. I know that in liquid yeast, part of the reason you do a starter is to activate the yeast (in addition to building up the number of healthy yeast) and you don't necessarily need to do that for dry yeast because re-hydrating the yeast will take care of that.

 

[iowabrew]

From White and Zainasheff's "Yeast" pg. 133: "Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cells reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their products. For dry yeast do a proper rehydration in tap water; do not make a starter."

The book isn't annotated, it just has references by chapter, so I'm not sure exactly which microbiology book he's quoting.

Again, i'm not sure what the harm is either, just going by past experience and some literature. Plus it's less time/effort to pitch the dry

 

[thejuanald]

Again, i'm not sure what the harm is either, just going by past experience and some literature. Plus it's less time/effort to pitch the dry

Okay, I will just go buy another packet, Maybe in the future I will experiment with starters if I need to use dry yeast again, but since this is my first batch since moving, and I have had to change around my brewing techniques to accommodate an apartment, the less effort I have in other areas, the better.

Thanks!

 

[Zoidberg]

I use starters on recultured 05 and dry Notty all the time with no issues. That being said, the issue with a starter for dry yeast is say you pitch the full packet into 2L starter, since there is already some 200+ billion cells it will not propegate and you will be left with the same 200+ billion cells, maybe less if some went dormant immediately. If I were you I would make 2 seperate 2L starters and pitch half or even a quarter of a packet into each. Use what you need and store the rest.

 

[iowabrew]

^ again it would be a lot easier to just buy 2 packs and pitch. That seems like a lot of extra work

 

[BigFloyd]

^ again it would be a lot easier to just buy 2 packs and pitch. That seems like a lot of extra work

This^^^^^^^. The extra time, effort, energy and cost simply isn't worth when you can simply use multiple packets for big beers. One 11g packet, if rehydrated, is enough cells for an ale up to 1.060.

If you pitch dry yeast into starter wort without rehydrating it first, you lose up to half the cells before they get a chance to reconstitute their cellular membranes. You'll then end up culturing what's left just to get back to the initial cell count.

Harvested dry yeast isn't dry yeast any longer. You treat it like liquid yeast.

 

[thejuanald]

I use starters on recultured 05 and dry Notty all the time with no issues. That being said, the issue with a starter for dry yeast is say you pitch the full packet into 2L starter, since there is already some 200+ billion cells it will not propegate and you will be left with the same 200+ billion cells, maybe less if some went dormant immediately. If I were you I would make 2 seperate 2L starters and pitch half or even a quarter of a packet into each. Use what you need and store the rest.

That does make sense as a reason they would not replicate. I think for this one I will stick to just re-hydrating two packets, but in the future I might do some experiments with starters. Thanks!

 

[DaleCooper]

I think for this one I will stick to just re-hydrating two packets, but in the future I might do some experiments with starters. Thanks!

Good call! In the way of explanations, if you are willing to take advice from a fellow newbie ...

While a starter for dry yeast would probably work out just fine, I don't think it would be optimal. The extra effort aside, dry yeast manufacturers include some reserves in their product to get the yeasties off and running quickly after they land in the wort. Doing a starter could deplete those reserves and be counter-productive for dry yeast:

Many experts suggest that placing dry yeasts in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into their product. For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not make a starter.

According to the pitch calculator at mrmalty, you would need approx. 1.7 dry ale yeast packs for 5 gallons @ 1.106, so your plan of rehydrating two packs should work great.

 

[thejuanald]

Good call! In the way of explanations, if you are willing to take advice from a fellow newbie ...

While a starter for dry yeast would probably work out just fine, I don't think it would be optimal. The extra effort aside, dry yeast manufacturers include some reserves in their product to get the yeasties off and running quickly after they land in the wort. Doing a starter could deplete those reserves and be counter-productive for dry yeast:



According to the pitch calculator at mrmalty, you would need approx. 1.7 dry ale yeast packs for 5 gallons @ 1.106, so your plan of rehydrating two packs should work great.

Great, thanks! when I looked at Beersmith it suggested a 1.5L starter and when I looked at mrmalty, it said to use 1.7 dry packs with no option for a starter so I got confused and came here for help haha. Thanks again!