Dry lager yeast: should I make a starter?

[AZ Maverick]

Flavor isn't what you're searching for when brewing? How do you come to the conclusion that you get better, more reliable yeast when making starters? I can understand the more attenuation, because it's measurable, but if the flavor is the same I'm not sure why you'd go through the hassle.

I routinely get warm liquid packs in the mail. Definitely make a starter for that. Only 1 pack has failed me in well over 200.

During the summer here, temps on my front porch are well over 100°F and by the time I get home any delivered liquid yeast (even cooled) is long dead...
In the past, when I direct pitched dry yeast I usually did get acceptable results - but once I started making starters with dry yeast my fermentation takes off much quicker and I have never had a high gravity brew stalled fermentation when using a dry yeast starter (which I have had happen with direct dry pitch).
Like I said in a previous post, I know some brewers will think I'm wasting my time or even doing detrimental procedures - but to each their own.

 

[wepeeler]

During the summer here, temps on my front porch are well over 100°F and by the time I get home any delivered liquid yeast (even cooled) is long dead...
In the past, when I direct pitched dry yeast I usually did get acceptable results - but once I started making starters with dry yeast my fermentation takes off much quicker and I have never had a high gravity brew stalled fermentation when using a dry yeast starter (which I have had happen with direct dry pitch).
Like I said in a previous post, I know some brewers will think I'm wasting my time or even doing detrimental procedures - but to each their own.

No local home brew shop? Maybe try to get a few liquid yeasts during cooler temps and harvest from starters. That's what I do. Store in 1L soda bottles with the screw tops.

 

[AZ Maverick]

No local home brew shop? Maybe try to get a few liquid yeasts during cooler temps and harvest from starters. That's what I do. Store in 1L soda bottles with the screw tops.

Yeah, no local HBS.
Liquid yeast during the cooler temps is the only time I can get them without killing them.
I suppose I really need to start harvesting....

 

[TimLa]

Especially the "cheap" part. Yikes. $8-9 per packet does not induce me to think "I'll just buy two and save myself some time." In my internal battle between laziness and cheapness, cheapness wins.

The question in my mind is, why does putting dry yeast in a starter destroy the cell walls, and putting it into a fermenter doesn't?

Bingo.
Say we have a pressure canned starter 1 liter from DME, a pinch of yeast nutrient at 1.035 OG. Would someone explain to me why a pitch of one packet of dry yeast into this would be a Bad Idea? Yes, the pitching rate would be high for the starter, but why would this be bad for the yeast?

 

[TimLa]

Yeah, no local HBS.
Liquid yeast during the cooler temps is the only time I can get them without killing them.
I suppose I really need to start harvesting....

My 'local' HBS is four hours round trip. Welcome to the South West. I've set up for dry yeast farming in the freezer, I'll let y'all know how it goes.

BTW, there are more cows than people in New Mexico. We love it here.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@TimLa, if you look at the quote from the book Yeast (reply #10), the word is 'depletes' not 'destroys'.

"Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cell reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their product"​

So a starter undoes what the yeast manufacturer did.

But a starter also grows the amount of yeast.

With lager yeast, a higher pitch rate (often 4 sachets) is need. 4 sachets can be viewed as expensive.

Product information associated with Lallemand Diamond Lager yeast contains information on how to make a starter and how to handle the yeast after the starter has been made.

 

[VikeMan]

@TimLa, if you look at the quote from the book Yeast (reply #10), the word is 'depletes' not 'destroys'.

"Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cell reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their product"​

So a starter undoes what the yeast manufacturer did.

But a starter also grows the amount of yeast.

The idea that making a starter depletes cell wall material reserves (sterols) is true, but a little misleading without the whole story. The sterol reserves are "depleted" because they are used to make new cells.

The same thing happens when you pitch dry yeast into main batch beer wort, i.e. the sterol reserves are used to make new cells.

And, in the case of the starter-produced-yeast, the sterol reserves are easily recovered by oxygenating the main batch of wort when pitching the yeast from the starter, allowing more growth. In the case of no starter, the growth will be limited to the reserves in the (lower cell count, unless pitching more packs) non-starter-yeast.

 

[AZ Maverick]

I make starters from dry yeast for all of my brews, even if one package has a high enough cell count.
No HBS Where I live in AZ and liquid yeast won't survive sitting on the porch if I order it and it's delivered (except during the winter).
I have found that when I make starters from dry yeast, I never have a slow or stuck fermentation especially when I brew lagers (which is most of what I brew).
I make my starters in Erlenmeyer flasks on a magnetic stir plate just like I would if making a starter from liquid yeast, and I don't rehydrate first.
I suppose everyone has their own opinion on this issue, mine works well for me so I'm going to keep making starters from dry yeast for all of my brews.

 

[mac_1103]

And, in the case of the starter-produced-yeast, the sterol reserves are easily recovered by oxygenating the main batch of wort when pitching the yeast from the starter, allowing more growth.

Exactly. So making a starter from dry yeast is only a bad idea if you're going to do it wrong.

I'm a direct pitch guy, because I started that way when I didn't know anything and it has always worked for me. I've never had a stuck fermentation and the only time it took more than about 12 hours for fermentation to start was when I pitched on top of a bunch of foam. But that beer still turned out fine.

 

[aceluby]

I don't make starters, but I do make a 1 gallon batch and then pitch the slurry into a 5 gallon batch and then continuously use 1/2 of that slurry for future batches. It's basically a starter, but I get to drink the beer The slurry pitches are definitely better than the dry pitch

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I make my starters in Erlenmeyer flasks on a magnetic stir plate just like I would if making a starter from liquid yeast, and I don't rehydrate first.

What size starters are you typically making? Do you let the starter ferment out and decant the spent wort or pitch the entire starter during active fermentation?

 

[AZ Maverick]

What size starters are you typically making? Do you let the starter ferment out and decant the spent wort or pitch the entire starter during active fermentation?

I make whatever size starter is needed to hit the required cell count.
I usually use a 2L Erlenmeyer flask for the starters and let it ferment out then decant the spent wort, I'll build it up until I hit the cell count.
I always decant the final starter before pitching.

 

[lumpher]

As I said 6 months ago, we each have our ways we use because they work.

 

[TimLa]

@TimLa, if you look at the quote from the book Yeast (reply #10), the word is 'depletes' not 'destroys'.

"Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cell reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their product"​

I never posted anything about 'destroys'. Your quote refers to a post by 'wepeeler', post # 4 in this thread I believe.