Dry hopping

[chris000]

I have done dry hopping of (D)IPAs in the past and followed more or less whatever the recipe called for.
Since I've never been someone who can do a recipe twice without at least a little bit of tweaking it, I want to play around more with dry hopping.
However, I need to get a better understanding of the topic, for example:

a) the effects of hopping at the end of fermentation ('scrubbing' effects by the yeast) - am I wasting hops here (quick turn around time is not an issue for me) or are there some quality benefits for rather early dry hop additions?

b) very late dry hopping (e.g. lager the beer for a couple of weeks before dry hopping), since I noticed that my hopbombs change faster than I can drink them (but like to have something in my keezer all the time and my schedule/ability to brew varies quite a bit)

c) additional dry hopping of beer that is already on tap (obviously already carbonated), since flavor/aroma has changed over time

d) I don't intend to keep the hops for an extended period in the beer, but I wonder what is the longest that people did without noticing too much grassy flavors

e) is there an advantage (less oxidation) if I dry hop fully carbonated beer (or will I just end up with a huge mess, less beer and no benefit)?

f) I often bubble CO2 through the beer/soda, but I wonder if that might also strip some of the more volatile hop flavors/aromas when done with IPAs. On the other hand, it guaranties that there is no O2 in the beer after any dry hop addition

g) dry hopping substituting for late boil/whirlpool additions. idea is to create a "blank" IPA that serves as base for different dry hopping variations. what to watch out for?

If you mind to share your thoughts and other consideration, I might have missed, would be appreciated

 

[V-Fib]

I can't answer all but when I dry hop, I either put them in a nylon pain straining bag or a 300 micron SS dry hop cylinder I got of Amazon for around $20. At the start I used to zip tie them to the upper part of the dip tub but now I just put them in the bottom of the keg. I think the longest I've had the hops on the beer was about 2 months and no one has said anything about a grass type flavor. My normal dry hop is 2-3 oz for 5 gallons.

 

[PADave]

I also am really liking the dry hops in the keg. I use a SS dry hop cylinder and leave the keg a week at room temp. Then chill and just leave them in. The dry hop intensity doesn't fade like it would in a bottle. No grassy flavors after a month.

 

[bigdawg86]

I am a IPA novice and am doing my second brew... first had boil, 7th day addition, secondary, then another round for 3 days. The aroma was phenomenal.
The brew I just did calls for a dry hop at the 2-3rd day of primary fermentation. I did 48 hours because fermentation was already slowing. Curious to see the results.

I know I didn't answer a single question...

 

[chris000]

....
I know I didn't answer a single question...

LOL

nobody has yet, not even started to discuss 'em or tell me I'm out for lunch on the entire topic

BTW, I'm using those screw top mesh tubes as well. Anyone a simple and hygienic way of attaching them to the lid so I don't need to go fishing for them (or push the beer over to another keg)?

 

[PADave]

LOL

nobody has yet, not even started to discuss 'em or tell me I'm out for lunch on the entire topic

BTW, I'm using those screw top mesh tubes as well. Anyone a simple and hygienic way of attaching them to the lid so I don't need to go fishing for them (or push the beer over to another keg)?

Why not just leave it? Once chilled the amount of oils released from the hops reduces greatly compared to room temps. To me it's just enough to maintain the hoppyness till the keg is gone, instead of having them fade over time.

 

[chris000]

Why not just leave it? Once chilled the amount of oils released from the hops reduces greatly compared to room temps. To me it's just enough to maintain the hoppyness till the keg is gone, instead of having them fade over time.

good point, dry hopping temperature is another variable I have not yet considered.
In a previous DIPA, I put a good load of pellets in the tube, when I opened it later, it was completely packed (pellets disintegrated and swell). I'm sure I only got a fraction in the beer of what I anticipated based on weight

 

[couchsending]

a) the effects of hopping at the end of fermentation ('scrubbing' effects by the yeast) - am I wasting hops here (quick turn around time is not an issue for me) or are there some quality benefits for rather early dry hop additions?

In my opinion and from what I have tested over maybe 40 batches of hoppy beers in the last 12-16 months... the dry hopping earlier during fermentation has more impact on flavor than anything else. However adding too much to early can be a waste. Personally I’ve gone to using 1/3rd or less during very active fermentation then the rest when there is only a slight bit of yeast activity.


b) very late dry hopping (e.g. lager the beer for a couple of weeks before dry hopping), since I noticed that my hopbombs change faster than I can drink them (but like to have something in my keezer all the time and my schedule/ability to brew varies quite a bit)


The issue is here the effect of Dry Hopping at lower temps and it’s impact on extraction of flavor and aroma. From everything I’ve read it’s better north of 60 but maybe less than 66.



c) additional dry hopping of beer that is already on tap (obviously already carbonated), since flavor/aroma has changed over time


Tons of people dry hop in the keg. I’ve done it, don’t do it anymore. Can’t stand the amount of particulate you end up with on most pours and I just don’t think it adds enough to the final product. If you do a great job minimizing o2 pickup you don’t need hops in the keg in order to maintain that punchy Hop flavor and aroma.


d) I don't intend to keep the hops for an extended period in the beer, but I wonder what is the longest that people did without noticing too much grassy flavors


2 months. No grass


e) is there an advantage (less oxidation) if I dry hop fully carbonated beer (or will I just end up with a huge mess, less beer and no benefit)?


More likely to get a foamy mess.


f) I often bubble CO2 through the beer/soda, but I wonder if that might also strip some of the more volatile hop flavors/aromas when done with IPAs. On the other hand, it guaranties that there is no O2 in the beer after any dry hop addition


I’ve read that the scrubbing can happen although it seems standard for most pro brewers to “rouse” the hops a few times with CO2 in the conical to keep them in suspension.




g) dry hopping substituting for late boil/whirlpool additions. idea is to create a "blank" IPA that serves as base for different dry hopping variations. what to watch out for?


I’ve started doing something lately that has produced great results but I still need to do some more screwing around. I’ll add a small DH charge with a decent amount of activity left, say 8 points from FG.
I’ll let the beer finish, Diacetyl rest, etc. I will then cool it to 60 for a few days which is usually enough to get most of the yeast to flocc. (Helps to have a highly flocculent yeast) then add a small amount of low flocculating, rehydrated, dry yeast and a small amount of sugar with the larger DH addition. This additional yeast ideally will consume all the added O2 during DH, maybe give you a little Biotransformatio impact but it also won’t flocc out and pull hop oils with it. Ideally if I had a unitank I’d capture all the carbonation at this point but hopefully sometime in the future. You Could do it in a keg although then you’d most likely need to bag the hops which I’ve stopped doing lately as I think utilization seems a lot lower when you bag pellets.

I’ve started filling a keg with water/starsan, pushing that out. Purging 2 or three times with 30 PSI and then transferring. It has also made a huge impact on O2 pickup in my kegs and they remain really punchy and aromatic a lot longer than before using this method.

Also the burst carb, speedy carbonation method everyone loves seems to do more damage than good. I’ve had better luck retaining aroma using the low and slow method. Sure you get to drink it faster but it will also fade a lot quicker. And honestly I think super fresh hoppy beers are kind of gross. Sharp and bitter, and just not great to drink.



If you mind to share your thoughts and other consideration, I might have missed, would be appreciated

Hope that helps

 

[chris000]

Couchsending, thanks for the response!

1.5 days ago I tossed a SS cylinder with (10g Citra, 5 g Centennial) into a half full (well, half empty if you ask me...) keg (3ºC). Foaming wasn't that bad, about 20% volume increase. Did only a little head space purge (no bubbling, just regular gas in), since it foamed up and had already nearly a foot of CO2 blanket on top. So, any O2 should have been taken away as fast as possible.
I tried a beer after about 24h (next one planned tonight). Some of the aromas were there, but not really as expected. I read that most of the extraction of the desired aromas happens within the first 2-3 days. Unfortunately I could not find any more advanced study that showed how much this depends on temperature or pH.

Speaking of it does anyone know what is the pH difference between a finish fermented IPA before and after forced carbonation (sorry, don't have a working pH meter currently)? pH plays a major role in polyphenol extraction (alcohol content and temp. too).

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but dry hopping while there is some yeast activity is done to diminish the effects of O2 exposure to the hops.

So, my thinking is that if the extraction profile is not significantly different due to pH (perhaps just a bit slower due to temperature), I'd rather use CO2 directly instead of relying on the yeast.

Regarding the suspending of the cylinder, I thought of just welding a loop or hook to the lid. However, I found it very interesting that so many of you have not experienced veggi flavors after having the hops in the keg for months. Again, have never left anything in there myself for more than 10 days and only read about the negative effects. At the very least, it makes me wonder if I should try to fill a bottle or two with and without hop and let it sit to see for myself.

 

[couchsending]

Couchsending, thanks for the response!

1.5 days ago I tossed a SS cylinder with (10g Citra, 5 g Centennial) into a half full (well, half empty if you ask me...) keg (3ºC). Foaming wasn't that bad, about 20% volume increase. Did only a little head space purge (no bubbling, just regular gas in), since it foamed up and had already nearly a foot of CO2 blanket on top. So, any O2 should have been taken away as fast as possible.
I tried a beer after about 24h (next one planned tonight). Some of the aromas were there, but not really as expected. I read that most of the extraction of the desired aromas happens within the first 2-3 days. Unfortunately I could not find any more advanced study that showed how much this depends on temperature or pH.

Speaking of it does anyone know what is the pH difference between a finish fermented IPA before and after forced carbonation (sorry, don't have a working pH meter currently)? pH plays a major role in polyphenol extraction (alcohol content and temp. too).

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but dry hopping while there is some yeast activity is done to diminish the effects of O2 exposure to the hops.

So, my thinking is that if the extraction profile is not significantly different due to pH (perhaps just a bit slower due to temperature), I'd rather use CO2 directly instead of relying on the yeast.

Regarding the suspending of the cylinder, I thought of just welding a loop or hook to the lid. However, I found it very interesting that so many of you have not experienced veggi flavors after having the hops in the keg for months. Again, have never left anything in there myself for more than 10 days and only read about the negative effects. At the very least, it makes me wonder if I should try to fill a bottle or two with and without hop and let it sit to see for myself.

I have only ever read about PH affecting polyphenol extraction during the boil.

I know that PH drastically increases with DH additions. Beers I’ve fermented with S-04 will be around 4.1-4.2 before DH addition and usually end at 4.4-4.5 when all said and done.

 

[chris000]

I have only ever read about PH affecting polyphenol extraction during the boil.

I know that PH drastically increases with DH additions. Beers I’ve fermented with S-04 will be around 4.1-4.2 before DH addition and usually end at 4.4-4.5 when all said and done.

quite interesting. 4.5 is not overly low for an ale. is this after or before carbonation completed?

I finally found something interesting regarding pH/temp that suggest, depending on the hop compound, one has a greater influence than the other (at typical pH range). In short, it gives the impression that any combination of pH/temp will result in a different aroma profile.

I was thinking of making my life easier with going the cold/carbonated beer dry hopping route, but it might become one endless journey. If I want to go down that road, I better ask Santa for a good pH meter...

 

[couchsending]

quite interesting. 4.5 is not overly low for an ale. is this after or before carbonation completed?

I finally found something interesting regarding pH/temp that suggest, depending on the hop compound, one has a greater influence than the other (at typical pH range). In short, it gives the impression that any combination of pH/temp will result in a different aroma profile.

I was thinking of making my life easier with going the cold/carbonated beer dry hopping route, but it might become one endless journey. If I want to go down that road, I better ask Santa for a good pH meter...

4.5 is low? You mean high... once you get much above 4.5 I believe shelf stability comes into question a little.

I’ve never seen anyone consider Ph of a carbonated sample, it’s generally degassed to measure it.

 

[chris000]

4.5 is low? You mean high... once you get much above 4.5 I believe shelf stability comes into question a little.

I’ve never seen anyone consider Ph of a carbonated sample, it’s generally degassed to measure it.

"not overly low" meaning high, but not necessarily anything concerning, sorry for the confusion. high pH is certainly not perfect for stability (it can also be an indicator of autolysis, but not necessarily)

degassed - exactly. but that makes me wonder, how do you degas fully at home (Helium bubbling or sonication are no options for me). are you just shaking the sample like hell?

 

[chris000]

some update on my little trial without a reference.
after day 3, there wasn't a lot of aromas, so I thought why not shake it up to move more beer through the mesh before I go to the next step of increasing temperature.
well, that wasn't such a great idea. I got lots of hop particles back in solution and I don't know if it was some sediment from the dispensing keg or fresh hops. either way, that pea soup was not drinkable. so tonight I'll try again if settling it out did the trick or if the veggie flavor sticks around.

 

[chris000]

For now I have to declare this experiment as failed!
I have not figured out if it was the carbonated beer, the (dry) hop (unlikely since they were only 3 days in the beer) or some old hop junk that was lingering somewhere in the keg for a month or so (and didn't seem to make much of a negative contribution until it was shaken up). All I know is that Oxygen was not a factor for this instant change in flavour.
Despite lots of gelantine, it took a few days before the tiny hop pieces settled and were not any longer drawn up the dip tube (or I just flushed them out).
Regarding the taste - it has not changed much: For the first time, I have the veggie flavour in my IPA and since space in my keggerator is always limited, I'll dump this keg.
Good thing is that I have two more IPAs coming, which I have started dry hopping the traditional way (warm and not carbonated).
By the way, I got some long stainless steel tongs for removing the mesh tubes until I get time to weld on some lids.