Drinking Homebrew Young or Early

[remilard]

Good for you. That's great.

To be more clear, I'm not just talking about my own stuff...I've never tasted anyone else's beer that wouldn't have been better beyond 6 weeks.

I'm not saying that you are communicating your experience improperly but rather that you should consider the possibility that your experience is limited.

 

[indigi]

I'm not saying that you are communicating your experience improperly but rather that you should consider the possibility that your experience is limited.

Yeah, I agree with this. Especially when it comes to things like hefeweizens.

 

[tjp68]

I'm not saying that you are communicating your experience improperly but rather that you should consider the possibility that your experience is limited.

What I am communicating is that I am skeptical that there exists some mystical art that can make green beer taste good, and that just maybe we all have different taste thresholds. Nothing wrong with that.

Just as you can't throw a few ingredients into a pot and expect it to taste like osso buco in 30 minutes, it takes awhile for beer to taste, well, like beer.

It's not just about creating off flavors through my flawed and inferior brewing technique. Flavors meld over time. Some diminish, some intensify. In most cases, it seems about right at 8 weeks. Are there exceptions? Sure. I just don't believe that a gifted brewer can accomplish this with most recipes through superior technique.

 

[SC_Ryan]

What I am communicating is that I am skeptical that there exists some mystical art that can make green beer taste good, and that just maybe we all have different taste thresholds. Nothing wrong with that.

Can you explain exactly what green beer tastes like? What is the green flavor? Surely this is something that you can quantify with your superior taste threshold.

 

[tjp68]

Can you explain exactly what green beer tastes like? What is the green flavor? Surely this is something that you can quantify with your superior taste threshold.

I'm not the one claiming superiority in this thread. I acknowledged that what I believe tastes "ready" might not be what someone else does.

As far as describing what green beer tastes like...probably about like what you are drinking right now.

 

[gr8shandini]

I don't think you need a lot of money to produce clean beer that doesn't need weeks of time for off-flavors to age away. A large vessel for yeast starters, a $6 washing tub for a water-bath for your fermenter, and the time and effort to have impeccable sanitation are the only requirements, in my book.

See, if you don't create off-flavors, you don't have to age them out.

This is my thinking. Perhaps I'm impatient, but if I'm creating off flavors in my beer, I'd rather correct my process than just wait for them to go away.

This would be an interesting experiment, however: Most microbreweries are run by pretty accessible folks and would probably tell you when they plan to package a batch. So, it would be possible to buy some beer, hang on to it for 8 weeks after the "born on date", then pick up some beer directly from the brewery on their next packaging run. That way you could do a side-by-side comparison and settle the question. Of course you could do that with homebrew as well, but I know I'm not at the level of consistency yet where I could guarantee that one batch didn't just come out better than the other.

 

[Golddiggie]

I have an brew in primary for just over two weeks now (OG of 1.054) that I'll be pulling a sample from today to get a reading on, and taste... Chances are, though, it will run until this weekend before it gets bottled up.

I'm finding that my brews with an OG of under 1.060 are good with a 2-3 week primary, then 3 week carbonating/bottle conditioning time frame. 1.060-1.080 are usually in the 3-4 week primary range (maybe longer depends on how they taste). Over 1.080 and all bets are off. I have one that's aging on some oak chips that was brewed on 12/20/10. It was in primary for a month, and has been on oak ever since then... I sampled it late last week, and it's getting closer to my target flavor profile. Chances are, I'll prime and bottle it up this weekend too. I brewed on Sunday, hitting 1.072 for the OG... I plan on letting that one ride for two weeks before pulling a sample from it. Chances are, it will go 3-4 weeks before it gets primed and bottled up.

One way to avoid off flavors, I'm finding, is to let the wort ferment in the right temperature range (I have no control right now, but the weather is helping me out) and to NOT have really violent/active fermentation going on during the first few days to a week. The last brew I made that took off like a rocket, blowing foam through the airlock, needed time to combat the off flavors such activity produced. I did use a starter, and used a 6 gallon carboy (luckily) but it still shot foam through the airlock in under 7 hours. In the brews since then, I've done what I could to ensure more relaxed fermentation rates. More of a 'slow and steady' approach. I'm also typically making my starters about two days before brew day, so that the high activity inside the starter is done, with a nice sized yeast cake on the bottom. I used that method for yesterday's brew and it's going nicely right now. It was active (nice krausen inside the fermenter) between 7 and 10 hours after pitching the yeast. I did aerate this wort better (used the same home-made tool I used in the mead batches to aerate) and used a little nutrient (wanted to ensure happy yeast with the higher OG of the wort)... Stressing the yeast less makes for better beer... Learning what works for YOU to get there, makes you a happier brewer.

I'm making ales right now, styles from the British Isles... Which, I believe, are a bit more forgiving than some of the other styles. I don't need to maintain ultra tight temperature ranges, and such. I'm also picking yeast that is happy within the temperature ranges I can keep them at. I do see myself making some lager's at a point in the future. But that will be once I've moved to a larger place, and can set up properly for it.

I don't need to have beer from grain to glass in under two weeks. For one thing, I'm not kegging, so it's pretty much not going to happen right there. If a brew is 'ok' or even 'good' at two weeks, it could be even better given just a little longer. Of course, since all of my brew's OG's have been over 1.050, having them ready for bottles in under two weeks just isn't going to happen.

As already pointed out, this is a hobby... Granted, people tend to get passionate about it. I think we'll always have the two camps of people wanting to have their beer done NOW, and those willing to wait for the beer to be ready. Even when I get a fermentation chamber (or make one) I'll give each brew the amount of time IT needs to complete, or be ready.

One good way, in my opinion, to learn patience in brewing is to brew something really big. A hefty BarleyWine, Braggot, or even a sack mead. Talking about something that won't be ready for 10+ months. With those, you'll learn to appreciate aging, and see how they change over time. Even just a few months makes a difference...

 

[SC_Ryan]

As far as describing what green beer tastes like...probably about like what you are drinking right now.

Actually I have a pretty good pipeline. The Brown Ale I have on tap right now is probably just about 10 weeks old. I can't say that I think its any better than the other half of the batch that I tapped at 3 weeks.

My question stands. What does the green flavor taste like? If you can't quantify it then the improvement from aging that you are experiencing is likely placebo.

 

[Rev2010]

What about lagering? Is everyone also saying lagered beer turnaround can be done in two weeks? Lagered beers - lagers, pilsners, etc, seem to be the most common on the market, so since we're talking about 2 weeks grain to glass do you all still feel it's easy to do with lagers?


Rev.

 

[TTB-J]

I'm not so sure that we're all talking about the same thing. I've noticed a significant difference in things like mouthfeel, flavor, and the length of finish on beers that have spent extra time in the bottle. It's not that there were off flavors that needed to age out, the beer just tasted kind of thin, the spices we had added were too strong as compared to the body, and there was no lasting flavor, it was gone as soon as you swallowed. After a month or two in the bottle, it got noticeably better, and i wasn't the only one that thought that as we did an unveiling of sorts with friends after 3 weeks in the bottle and then the same people tasted it again two months later at a different get together.

That being said, we have a local microbrew here in town that I swear tastes better if you drink it from the actual brewery after taking a tour. I feel like the only logical explanation for that is freshness.

 

[Golddiggie]

Of course you could do that with homebrew as well, but I know I'm not at the level of consistency yet where I could guarantee that one batch didn't just come out better than the other.

That's where having a good brew log comes into play. Taking good notes during each part, where you need to, helps to repeat a recipe later... Even going so far as to note the actual final temp when you're done mashing, and how long you sparged for. This way, X months, or even years, down the road, you have a solid shot at making the brew again, pretty damned close to how it was the last time. Or, correcting what went wonky the first time.

For lagering, I believe that's where having real tight temperature control comes into play. You could do a few weeks from grain to bottle/keg (not saying glass since that depends on if your bottling or kegging it up)...

Different brew styles lend themselves to different methods/processes for fermenting and any aging... Some will be best with more brief fermentation times, and ready to drink as soon as they are carbonated (~2-3 weeks from bottling/kegging)... While others will benefit from longer primary fermentation times, with aging after that, before being bottled up... There are those that are really not best for several months from when they are actually started.

It really is a case of the brew being ready when it's going to be ready. Us wishing for them to be ready sooner/faster won't make it happen. So depending on what you're brewing, it will be done when it's done.

Hence the importance of having a decent pipeline... I figure that I can have one large brew going at any given time, and still keep my pipeline going (brewing every two weeks, something that is grain to glass in ~6-8 weeks). I have two batches in bottles, one was bottled almost a month ago, with the other just over two weeks ago now. I'll be bottling another batch (or two) this weekend, with one of them being ready in 2-3 weeks. Not sure about the other, since it might need more time to carbonate (1-3 months from what I read/hear)... I'm brewing again in two weeks (2/26) which should be ready for bottles in 2-3 weeks (a cream ale)...

Now that it's also been mentioned by others, I'm probably going to start hunting for the different brews in stores. Things that I've not had before, but are in line with what I'm brewing (or the style is from the same region)... I am starting to make a list of brews I want to try, so that I can then see if I want to clone them or not...

 

[SC_Ryan]

What about lagering? Is everyone also saying lagered beer turnaround can be done in two weeks? Lagered beers - lagers, pilsners, etc, seem to be the most common on the market, so since we're talking about 2 weeks grain to glass do you all still feel it's easy to do with lagers?


Rev.

We are talking about ales. I've never seen anyone suggest that lagers can be rushed along in two weeks. I think the "Two weeks from grain to glass" is mostly being brought up by the folks that are sticking to the 6 weeks is minimum rule.

What I am suggesting is that not all beers need to be aged 6-8 weeks to achieve their best flavor. I have recipes that do improve with some age and others that do not. When I put my three week old brown ale on tap it wasn't out of impatience. I had several "aged" beers that I could have put on tap. This particular recipe hasn't shown benefit from aging in the past. This beer wasn't rushed it was finished so I tapped it. Like I said the second half of the batch I have on gas right now isn't any better.

When I was new to homebrewing aging helped every one of my beers. Now that I have a firm grasp on pitch rate and steady and appropriate fermentation temps, I find that some of my beers are optimum sooner. Ramping up temp toward the end of fermentation has helped with this. Some beers improve with age, not all.

 

[phasedweasel]

I, too, am really curious what the "green beer" the aging advocates talk about tastes like. Can you describe it, or point to exaggerated examples? I don't care if I bottle in 2 weeks or 2 months, I have a fat pipe, but I am trying to understand my process better. I've had several beers that tasted delicious early, and I did not like how they tasted as much two months later. Let's leave aside the extreme examples of hefeweisen, spiced and high gravity beers.

 

[remilard]

What I am communicating is that I am skeptical that there exists some mystical art that can make green beer taste good, and that just maybe we all have different taste thresholds. Nothing wrong with that.

Just to be clear you are saying that the BJCP judges who sent three of my beers that were 4 or 5 weeks old (the 5 week old ones were lagers) to the second round of the NHC last year simply lack your discerning palate?

I guess that is it.

 

[remilard]

What about lagering? Is everyone also saying lagered beer turnaround can be done in two weeks? Lagered beers - lagers, pilsners, etc, seem to be the most common on the market, so since we're talking about 2 weeks grain to glass do you all still feel it's easy to do with lagers?


Rev.

4 weeks for standard gravity lagers with no decoction is pretty easy. They may get better after that but if you know what you are doing they are better than 90% of homebrew lagers at that point.

 

[Golddiggie]

I, too, am really curious what the "green beer" the aging advocates talk about tastes like. Can you describe it, or point to exaggerated examples? I don't care if I bottle in 2 weeks or 2 months, I have a fat pipe, but I am trying to understand my process better. I've had several beers that tasted delicious early, and I did not like how they tasted as much two months later. Let's leave aside the extreme examples of hefeweisen, spiced and high gravity beers.

From what I've tasted, 'green' beer (not beer designed to be green for the holiday) is still harsh when it's not supposed to be. Or has off flavors in it, that you did not expect, or were not by design. Of course, there are commercial beers out there that pass those things off as what they intended to do (probably not the case the first time or two, but they shipped anyway and now it's their 'style')... I find that ales that have aged a little longer, or matured, are smoother in the right places, and still stick out where they're supposed to... Sort of like a good woman... :rockin: Good body, smooth, but strong enough to lay you out if you have too much of her. Personally, I don't like high IBU brews, so I'm not into tarts either.

 

[gr8shandini]

I, too, am really curious what the "green beer" the aging advocates talk about tastes like. Can you describe it, or point to exaggerated examples? I don't care if I bottle in 2 weeks or 2 months, I have a fat pipe, but I am trying to understand my process better. I've had several beers that tasted delicious early, and I did not like how they tasted as much two months later. Let's leave aside the extreme examples of hefeweisen, spiced and high gravity beers.

Same here. If you read the books, you get answers like this one from "How to Brew"

Acetaldehyde
A flavor of green apples or freshly cut pumpkin; it is an intermediate compound in the formation of alcohol. Some yeast strains produce more than others, but generally it's presence indicates that the beer is too young and needs more time to condition.

I've never once experienced that, but then again, I've only brewed ales and never tried tasting one prior to a week after pitching. A lot of the "what does green beer taste like" threads come back with answers like "yeasty," but that just means you have yeast in suspension. You can take care of that in 24 - 48 hrs with a cold crash and finings. I don't see any reason to wait 6 weeks to clear a beer.

 

[Indyking]

This discussion is so pointless. The only folks who are in position to discuss which method is better are the ones who already compared them in the real world.

For me, I found out that longer fermentation periods combined with longer kegging/bottling results on anything from slight to way better beer, usually 2 months from grain to glass is my minimum. You have to make the experiment yourself if you want to prove anything.

If you think your 2-3 weeks beer is great but you never tried the same product aged, how would you know it is actually better?

Oh, BTW, don't use competition results as examples to prove aging because perhaps the same beer aged would have done even better! Unless you have results of the competition showing the very same beer getting a higher score compared to it's aged version in the very same competition, competition results cannot be used as arguments.

Thing is ... There are very good beers but also there are excellent outstanding beers and not everyone's palate is able to clear distinguish them.

 

[IffyG]

I, too, am really curious what the "green beer" the aging advocates talk about tastes like. Can you describe it, or point to exaggerated examples?

The most blatant example of 'green beer' I experienced was my pale ale that tasted extremely astringent and almost soapy when I force carbed a 20ounce bottled with my carbonator cap. Over 4 weeks in the keg, it faded away and it's now one of the best beers I've brewed.

 

[tjp68]

4 weeks for standard gravity lagers with no decoction is pretty easy. They may get better after that but if you know what you are doing they are better than 90% of homebrew lagers at that point.

Really?

 

[SC_Ryan]

Oh, BTW, don't use competition results as examples to prove aging because perhaps the same beer aged would have done even better!

You are looking at it wrong. He used competition results as proof that you don't need to age your homebrew in order to make fantastic and award winning beer.

 

[remilard]

Really?

Maybe. But when they are good enough to score 40+ I think they are good enough to be free from you criticizing them from your armchair.

 

[Indyking]

You are looking at it wrong. He used competition results as proof that you don't need to age your homebrew in order to make fantastic and award winning beer.

I did not say his award winning beer was not good... it surely was... what I said was that perhaps if he allowed the same beer to ferment longer and age in the bottle, it would have got better scores... anything beyond that is out of scope here...

What is in discussion in the OP is:

Aging is a myth or not?

The issue: "can quickly made beers taste great and win awards" is a totally different story!

 

[Rev2010]

We are talking about ales. I've never seen anyone suggest that lagers can be rushed along in two weeks. I think the "Two weeks from grain to glass" is mostly being brought up by the folks that are sticking to the 6 weeks is minimum rule.

All fine and well, but the original post made no distinction about any one specific category of beer that can be done in 2 weeks grain to glass turnover, it simply said "homebrew".


Rev.

 

[tjp68]

Maybe. But when they are good enough to score 40+ I think they are good enough to be free from you criticizing them from your armchair.

I haven't criticized anything in this thread. I've acknowledged that some recipes can be turned around quickly. You haven't acknowledged that it is ever appropriate to age a beer, unless of course the brewer is an inexperienced noob who obviously introduced off flavors through poor technique.

 

[remilard]

I haven't criticized anything in this thread. I've acknowledged that some recipes can be turned around quickly. You haven't acknowledged that it is ever appropriate to age a beer, unless of course the brewer is an inexperienced noob who obviously introduced off flavors through poor technique.

Yes you have. You have quite clearly stated that anyone who thinks a beer younger than 6 weeks is very good lacks your own discerning palate.

As for me acknowledging that it is ever appropriate to age a beer, I was never asked to make that acknowledgment and I never said otherwise.

 

[SC_Ryan]

What is in discussion in the OP is:

Aging is a myth or not?

The issue: "can quickly made beers taste great and win awards" is a totally different story!

Actually what the OP discussed is whether it is a myth that homebrew needs to be aged.

I read an article, can't recall where, last fall that talked about they "myth" that homebrew needed to age.

I would say that based on the fact that you can make fantastic and award winning beer without aging that you clearly don't need to age your homebrew. Myth dispelled.

[thread/]

 

[Indyking]

Yes you have. You have quite clearly stated that anyone who thinks a beer younger than 6 weeks is very good lacks your own discerning palate.

As for me acknowledging that it is ever appropriate to age a beer, I was never asked to make that acknowledgment and I never said otherwise.

Just curious... have you actually ever tried to compare quickly-made vs. longer fermented/bottled conditioned versions of the same recipe of yours?

 

[Indyking]

Actually what the OP discussed is whether it is a myth that homebrew needs to be aged.



I would say that based on the fact that you can make fantastic and award winning beer without aging that you clearly don't need to age your homebrew. Myth dispelled.

[thread/]

It depends... Like I said before:

There are very good beers but also there are excellent outstanding beers and not everyone's palate is able to clear distinguish them.

 

[SC_Ryan]

Yes you have. You have quite clearly stated that anyone who thinks a beer younger than 6 weeks is very good lacks your own discerning palate.

tjp68 and a couple other posters also went on to suggest that those who do not age their beer out further were lazy and impatient.