Dough in before heating?

[DaveSeattle]

I have a mostly automated RIMS system and could cut even more manual intervention out of my brew day if I dough in prior to heating the strike water, then use the RIMS to bring it to temperature (1500 watt element). I think this would be like a step mash with only a couple minutes at each step and the end result will be only slightly different, perhaps a bit more fermentable for a given final sach temperature, but still totally acceptable for all styles. What do you all think?

 

[feinbera]

Wouldn't it take a lot longer than heating strike water in your boil kettle? I guess it's a trade-off, time for automation, I certainly can't tell you whether the one is worth the other.

One other consideration is, you're going to have a de facto protein rest, unless you're heating way faster than a degree a minute, that's 10+ minutes in the 120-130° range, 20+ minutes within five degrees of that range when you'll presumably still be getting some, if not optimal, protease activity. I'm sure you can compensate for the loss of body and head retention by using more wheat/carapils/whatever, but it's something to think about.

 

[DaveSeattle]

After doing some reading, it looks like the head-degrading proteases ate most active at 122 and the head enhancing ones are most active at 132. So if anything this is likely to enhance head and body. I'll give it a try and if it turns out too thin I'll toss in some maltodextrine.

 

[blizz81]

I guess my main concern would be overworking the element. As touchy of a subject of scorched wort is in regards to RIMS, in doing searches around on the board(s), I've found where people have had it happen is when they're expecting their element to do more work than just holding temp (regardless of 120/240 it seems - more the commonality of the element pretty much always being on for an extended period of time)...which has generally been trying to do step mashes, but would apply here as well.


Not that it's not worth trying though.

 

[helibrewer]

I use a 1650W RIMs and it takes about 3min per degree to raise temps. With the mass of the grain it will take much longer for the mash to get up to temp than by just using heated strike water.

 

[helibrewer]

After doing some reading, it looks like the head-degrading proteases ate most active at 122 and the head enhancing ones are most active at 132. So if anything this is likely to enhance head and body. I'll give it a try and if it turns out too thin I'll toss in some maltodextrine.

In fully modified grain all of the protein has been broken down during the malting process, resting temps have no effect. The low resting temp helps break down any remaining B-Glucan, the cell wall material surrounding the protein matrix where the starch granules are. Most of the B-Glucan is broken down during malting also but there often remains some at the distal end of the grain that the lower temp rest helps complete.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

If you want to reduce manual intervention and you have a computer controller anyway, why not just add a dry grain hopper above the mash tun with a dump valve actuated by the mash temp sensor?

 

[DaveSeattle]

I always do a mash-out, so I would expect that if I were going to get noticeable scorching, I'd get it then. I have a relatively low power element so I'm not at all worried about scorching.

I'm less interested in getting benefit out of the steps than avoiding harm. So if it's doing nothing, that's fine with me.

It won't take any longer to get up to temp because you only need to heat it to mash temp, not to strike temp. You need to put in a constant number of BTUs (watt-hours) to get mash+grain to mash temp, and it doesn't matter if you put them all into the water and then add the grain or heat them together. There may be slight differences due to efficiency of heating and losses through the insulation but they should be trivial.

I haven't seen a really great plan for a grain dumper. The ones I've seen often have problems with not dumping the full load of grain. It's actually on my list to build, but I have to perfect my hop carousel first .

 

[blizz81]

I wouldn't really think there'd be any harm to it outside of scorching (and if you're mashing out successfully like you said, probably no worry there) if 1) you don't mind a more fermentable wort as you suggested (for sweeter styles, you may have issues here, but there's ways of getting around that too) and 2) depending on where you start temp-wise and how long it takes to get up to your target temp / target duration of your mash, you may have issues with full alpha amylase conversion. Which could also be solved by just a longer mash (which may also contribute to attenuation, though I'm not convinced yet).

 

[DaveSeattle]

I often mash 90 minutes anyway, and already get too attenuated wort if I use other peoples' recipes. My goal with brewing is to be able to fire it up on a weekend morning and then go be with my family, go for a run, or get stuff done around the house, and only have to pop down to the garage a couple times. Right now I've got it down to 5+hop additions: start things, dough in, turn on and light propane, add hops as needed, turn off propane, move to fermenter and clean. By doughing in early I can cut one step, the hop carousel will cut the hop additions, and a pilot light propane valve will cut it down to the minimum 2 steps...

 

[mingram]

This is exactly what I'm looking for! I'd love to be able to automate mashing with a timer so I can set it in the morning like a crockpot and time it to turn on and be finished mashing by the time I get home from work.

Once I get my eBAIB setup I'll have to try the same back using both methods to see if I can taste a difference.

 

[Owly055]

I use this methodology already......... I dough in with hot tap water (about 130F), heating and stirring the mash. The net heating time is exactly the same because you have to over heat the strike water to compensate for the cooling when you add the grain. It works very well an seems to reduce conversion time significantly. I typically dwell in the mash temp range only about 20 minutes and get excellent conversion and attenuation.

My Torroidal BIAB RIMS system which I am just beginning to build consists of a piece of stainless steel exhaust pipe projecting down into the brew kettle with a motor above driving an impeller near the bottom (stainless steel prop). The mash will be drawn in from near the surface, and exhausted out the bottom creating a torroidal circulation. A hot plate will be used to provide the heat, and will be controlled by an STC-1000 and SSR. This will allow me to dough in with cold water the night before and wake up to a completed mash by using a timer.

Be careful talking about time and labor saving innovations here.......... The Luddites will accuse you of not liking to brew.......... If you really love to brew, apparently you relish spending vast amounts of time piddling around waiting. Any measures to save time and increase efficiency seem to indicate that you hate brewing ;-(


H.W.

 

[DaveSeattle]

mingram, I tried it once on a small batch (2.5 gal on a system capable of 10) and found that if you don't have much strike water, it doesn't work well because there wasn't enough water above the deadspace to circulate and hydrate the grain. I haven't had the chance to brew again since then though.

Owly you're going to want to upgrade your controller to an STC-1000+ or get a PID, or you'll get pretty bad oscillations in temperature. Otherwise sounds like a cool system!