Dorm Brew

[olllllo]

You seriously think that could possibly happen? That homebrewing is so borderline acceptable, that it could be snatched up by the man forever?

Especially over one guy who wants to learn how to brew here? I think you are overthinking this just a bit.....Ok granted....lie to us, you are under 21 and that is law, I can accept that. But to think that one person getting caught brewing at college would bring this all the a screecthing stop is just beyond me

The acceptability of online forums and social networking is where danger of losing THIS forum comes into play. Many forums go under because they cannot do an acceptable job of regulating content. There is the federal COPA law to consider as well.

 

[the_bird]

The acceptability of online forums and social networking is where danger of losing THIS forum comes into play. Many forums go under because they cannot do an acceptable job of regulating content. There is the federal COPA law to consider as well.

What's the COPA law?

 

[trinitone]

What's the COPA law?

Child Online Protection Act

 

[olllllo]

The Children's Online Protection Act.

It was specifically drafted to protect youth from pr0n and requires that websites take measures to prevent children under a certain age...

It's why TX has to police avatars and images we throw down.

Although alcohol is not covered, it is a politically appointed commission. Without getting too partisan, a certain administration has exanded the powers of these commissions to further a certain social "movement" i.e FCC, Education, DHHS, etc.

Point is it serves as a blueprint to restrict a free internet and sites like ours if someone was so inclined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Online_Protection_Act

EDIT: Yes, Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) has a program to promote abstinance for 29 year olds.
http://www.rawstory.com/showoutarti...on/2006-10-30-abstinence-message_x.htm?csp=34

 

[Desert_Sky]

Im just going to agree to disagree here, and leave this thread alone from now on.....


its just that comments like "drink kool aid, kid" and such that really bother me when we were all there at one point. When I say we were all there Im referring to drinking in college. I just wish I had started appreciating better beers back in college like it seems he is trying to, instead of following the crowd and pounding BMC

i guess its ok to lurk as long as long as you dont ask questions

 

[olllllo]

Im just going to agree to disagree here, and leave this thread alone from now on.....


its just that comments like "drink kool aid, kid" and such that really bother me when we were all there at one point. When I say we were all there Im referring to drinking in college. I just wish I had started appreciating better beers back in college like it seems he is trying to, instead of following the crowd and pounding BMC

I don't think we're too far apart on opinion about that. I think that some of us feel that abetting this kind of behavior MAY cause some parent to bring this site down.

 

[Evan!]

You seriously think that could possibly happen? That homebrewing is so borderline acceptable, that it could be snatched up by the man forever?

Chimone, dude, I live in a state where the government treats alcohol like a barely-necessary evil. Hell, the STATE ("Alcoholic Beverage Control") is the ONLY entity that can legally sell distilled spirits here. And that's for law-abiding adults. When it comes to colleges, alcohol (in any form, whether it be moonshine or homebrew or natty lite) is treated as the devil incarnate. They blame all their problems on booze. Whenever a kid dies or gets hurtin an "alcohol-related" incident, the colleges get together with local law enforcement and "crack down". And when they crack down, they don't care if it's a case of Aristocrat, or a case of homebrew.

I really do wish I shared your optimism, but I don't. It wasn't 5 years ago that I was in college...and I remember quite well how the University treated booze: like something that should be banned outright, and if they could, they would.

This country LOVES scapegoats...and booze is an easy scapegoat. This is why I worry.

Especially over one guy who wants to learn how to brew here? I think you are overthinking this just a bit.....Ok granted....lie to us, you are under 21 and that is law, I can accept that. But to think that one person getting caught brewing at college would bring this all the a screecthing stop is just beyond me

I'm not saying it's all that probable, I'm just saying, why take the f'n chance? Is it really worth it? What do we get out of it? Nothing, really. Personally, it's not worth the risk. If there are kids on here who willingly submit that they're underage, I won't aid in their actions. For me, it's just not worth it. I've seen way too many freedoms taken from us because of politicians who are more than willing to exploit the fears of the people. And believe me...kids making booze and getting drunk off it and dying is certainly a fear that many parents feel...or, rather, WOULD feel if some headline-whoring news organization brought it to their attention that kids were homebrewing and getting help from adults on the internerd.

 

[Evan!]

Im just going to agree to disagree here, and leave this thread alone from now on.....


its just that comments like "drink kool aid, kid" and such that really bother me when we were all there at one point. When I say we were all there Im referring to drinking in college. I just wish I had started appreciating better beers back in college like it seems he is trying to, instead of following the crowd and pounding BMC

i guess its ok to lurk as long as long as you dont ask questions

Or just lie about your age. It's not that hard.

 

[trinitone]

It is one thing to unkowingly or unwittingly commit or help someone commit a crime. It is a completely different thing to knowingly do it.

 

[Brewpastor]

How do we control this? Do we research each post's author to see if the age they post is of drinking age? If this is to be controlled do we need to set up sign-ins that require age declaration? Do TxBrew and the mods start banning anyone under legal drinking age in their particular place of residence? This is not an easy situation to manage.

 

[olllllo]

How do we control this? Do we research each post's author to see if the age they post is of drinking age? If this is to be controlled do we need to set up sign-ins that require age declaration? Do TxBrew and the mods start banning anyone under legal drinking age in their particular place of residence? This is not an easy situation to manage.

I think we're doing it now. Good faith effort.

 

[trinitone]

How do we control this? Do we research each post's author to see if the age they post is of drinking age? If this is to be controlled do we need to set up sign-ins that require age declaration? Do TxBrew and the mods start banning anyone under legal drinking age in their particular place of residence? This is not an easy situation to manage.

I think it just requires some simple CYA verbiage in the signup. Something like "I affirm that knowledge derived from this forum and/or it's members will not be used for any illegal activity."

 

[Yuri_Rage]

For the simple reason that it always stirs heated debate and emotions, I think that we should avoid posts by underage folks. It always seems to get personal - either with the OP or with each other. I wasn't going to get involved in this one except to mention the UC Davis program, but then the kid started whining and making excuses as to why we should help him with his shady venture. Now I, too, am guilty of getting my feathers ruffled over something rather simple. Apologies for the impoliteness of my earlier comments, no apologies for the over-arching sentiment.

 

[RichBrewer]

I'm concerned about legal issues. If something happened to an under aged person (drunk driving, bing drinking etc...) and it was determined that this site taught and encouraged them to make home brew, could HBT be held liable? I think no but lawyers have a different way of looking at things.

Maybe there should be age verification upon entering. I've been to a few beer sites that require it. It wouldn't be that big a pain for us. I know it won't stop kids from viewing and posting on HBT but it might release liability.

I personally will not encourage underage drinking. Did I do it? Oh yes I did. But with age comes wisdom and we all know that kids can get themselves into a lot of trouble by drinking.
I've got 3 teens at home and the thought of them drinking sends chills down my spine. I know I can't stop them when they are out with friends but I hope I have taught them to be responsible.

All this said, I have been known to be an EAC.

 

[the_bird]

I really wish that Tx would step in and let us know how he feels about this issue. If there WERE to be any legal issues, wouldn't it inevitably entangle him at the core?

 

[abracadabra]

and I am not asking for info on how to hide my brew, My RA has helped me build a beeramid before, I was simply asking about the smell.
You guys are so opinionated.

I thought people that came to this site were looking for opinions.

 

[Hippie]

FWIW, I always thought that brewing beer smelled similar to a BREADMAKER

I agree with the need for some kind of a CYA messure, I'd hate to see something happen to this site.

 

[abracadabra]

you have to state that you are 21 or over inorder to access the Sweetwater brewery web site.

 

[Hippie]

I was thinking something like...

"Homebrewing is an adult activity, restricted to those 21 years and older, and Illegal to those younger. I agree to not use any information obtained here in an illegal manner, and agree that HBT cannot be held accountable for my actions"

Or something similar...

You may need something having everyone agree that they are over 18 for that to be binding though... kind of like a legal contract, I really don't know...

 

[Evan!]

How do we control this? Do we research each post's author to see if the age they post is of drinking age? If this is to be controlled do we need to set up sign-ins that require age declaration? Do TxBrew and the mods start banning anyone under legal drinking age in their particular place of residence? This is not an easy situation to manage.

Seems rather simple to me, actually. Quite a few beer company sites do it. For example, if you go to Miller's website, it asks you to enter the date of your birth. Now, there is, of course, no way for them to actively verify that you are telling the truth. I could claim that I was born in 1922, and the system wouldn't care. As long as I enter a date prior to today's date in 1986, it lets me in. It's a simple setup that, while it doesn't really stop kids from accessing the site, it effectively shields the owners of the site from liability (as far as I can tell, given that I'm sure that Miller has some knowledgable lawyers vetting this stuff out). That's all, just something that asks for your birthdate when you set up an account here, and if it's less than 21 years from today's date, it denies the registration.

 

[Cheesefood]

Tx should enforce age limits. Since we have to enter our birthday, it should forbid anyone who states that they are over 21. However, this site is intended for informational purposes only and does not condone or encourage underage drinking. This site has nothing to do with alcohol, it's purpose is to describe the ingredients and procedures used to create alcohol.

Freedom of speech will protect him. One cannot be responsible for the content of their site if the information being shared is legal (i.e. not kiddy pr0n or defamatory remarks or encouraging acts of violence.)

Look at all the sites that give info on how to make meth, grow weed, pick up prostitutes, etc. There's plenty more to worry about than homebrew.

 

[Evan!]

There's plenty more to worry about than homebrew.

Tell that to some dirtbag opportunist lawyer who would sue his/her own mother if the whim struck them.

 

[FrewBrew]

I'm gonna sue the bar association for turning our society into a society where everyone just looks for frivolous lawsuits.

This thread is way off topic, and completely rediculous

 

[Fiery Sword]

This thread is way off topic, and completely rediculous

Thanks for the insight, there, buddy. I think you are completely wrong, and that this is one of the more important threads that's been brought up here in a while.

Here in MA, there is precedent for bartenders getting into legal trouble for 'overserving' patrons. Now, agree or disagree with this (as I'm sure eople will), it is law. So it is not that big of a stretch to assume that if a minor is helped in doing something illegal that this site could find trouble. And I say sucks to that.....ban 'em all, let the Beer Gods sort 'em out.

 

[Hopfan]

15 years ago, would any of you have thought you would be taking the moral high ground on any issue? I can't really disagree with any of the sentiments put forth here. While alcohol can easily be made the scapegoat for all the ills in our country, it is exactly the same as in any other issue that comes to a head in our society. The root issue is that parents have to take responsibility for teaching their children right & wrong, acceptable behavior, etc. Will we all be successful at that? No. Is that any excuse to find some other "real" cause of the problem? Gimme' a break.

However unfortunate the circumstances, our litigious society has created an atmosphere of paranoia and mistrust in which you must cover your a** by any means necessary lest the moral majority take you to task. I, too, think we should have a disclaimer and/or age barrier on the site.

 

[Torchiest]

I think anyone should be allowed to get any information they want and do anything they want with it, and I certainly did my share of drinking when I was underage, but I think there are a lot of people out there who would indeed try to cause problems for anyone they thought had "aided" an underage person in any illegal activity.

It's just like at my bar. Plenty of my friends and myself drank before we were 21, but I still card anyone that looks too young, and I'm a hardcore a**hole about it too. I've pissed off plenty of people, but I'm looking out for the business, and trying to avoid liability.

In that way, I think it's valid to want to avoid directly giving information to someone we KNOW is underage, just to cover our asses. I disagree with the law, but while it's in place, I'm going to make damn sure I don't get into trouble with it.

 

[sause]

It's just like at my bar. Plenty of my friends and myself drank before we were 21, but I still card anyone that looks too young, and I'm a hardcore a**hole about it too. I've pissed off plenty of people, but I'm looking out for the business, and trying to avoid liability.

I too am an a**shole about carding people at the liquor store that I work at. I turn four or five groups of people away when one person doesn't have an ID or are under 21. Hell I've asked a a person who was sitting in the car out side to come in. That being said I originally posted here when I was under 21, one month to be exact but I didn't drink one bottle until the day I turned 21. In fact the people at the LHBS wouldn't sell me a kit or ingredients unless one of my parents were there.(Good for them) I would not have been able to post on this forum if the proposed rules were in place but when I joined this site only had 175 members. If joined now I would be able to find any question out there by using the search feature which I believe is able to be used if you aren't a member. I would be behind an age limit for joining. The only concern for me is that some places don't have 21 as the age limit, are we going to discriminate against them?

 

[Torchiest]

That's a really good point. This is an international forum, and hence, we can't really be held to any particular standard or law. That's the awesome beauty and majesty of the internet. It defies localization and constrainment. We actually have no idea where tmabbotutep lives, so how can we say with any certainty what laws are applicable?

 

[Fiery Sword]

That's a really good point. This is an international forum, and hence, we can't really be held to any particular standard or law. That's the awesome beauty and majesty of the internet. It defies localization and constrainment. We actually have no idea where tmabbotutep lives, so how can we say with any certainty what laws are applicable?

I believe that the laws apply from where the board is hosted - but I'm not sure how that relates to users in other parts of the country and world. In the end, though, if we are talking about protecting HBT then I think the 21+ age limit for posting is across-the-bar reasonable. I wouldn't see that as discriminatory to say that the rules abide by the laws from the country of origin, the US.

 

[Evan!]

That's a really good point. This is an international forum, and hence, we can't really be held to any particular standard or law. That's the awesome beauty and majesty of the internet. It defies localization and constrainment. We actually have no idea where tmabbotutep lives, so how can we say with any certainty what laws are applicable?

Unless the user has some kind of intricate obfuscation program, anyone with network skills can ping him quite easily and find out where he's signing on from.

At the end of the day, just because a website is open to international use doesn't exempt it from laws that would normally apply.