Dogfish Head 90 Min IPA

[carbon111]

I tried it last weekend and wasn't impressed by it as compared to something cheaper like southern tier ipa. I also tried Stone Ruination which I much preferred, funny since I HATE Stone IPA. The 90 wasn't as hoppy or as complex as I expected. Now, their indian brown is really good.

I love Ruination despite the fact that it's a "bitter bomb".

I was really surprised by DFH's Indian Brown! I tried it for the first time last week. Maybe the "sweetness" I notice in their beers just suits that style better?

 

[davesrose]

*Disclaimer - The BJCP doesn't have a category for English Imperial IPA, so I couldn't link to that. I thought about going to English Barleywine, but figure that there is enough Hops in the 90 Minute to call it an American Barleywine. Since the 90 Minute claims to have 90 IBU, 9% abv, I have to assume they target 1.090 (though with the amount of sweetness I would guess higher for the less attenuation and retention of 9%abv).

The BJCP doesn't list "English Imperial IPA" because one doesn't exist. Americans have been upping hops and ABV...especially with pale ales. And barleywines don't taste anything like DFH 90, plus they are a higher ABV. I do think DFH is doing fine by calling the 90 minute a DIPA....it does seem to fit the characteristics for me, even if it is too sweet for my tastes. I also wouldn't go by attenuation in judging sweetness either. My rye IPA seems to be having a ABV of 8 and the FG is right at 1.020....it's not sweet at all due to the heavy amount of rye and little crystal. With the 90 minute having 90 IBU, it does have plenty of hops....it's just the type of hops and balancing between bittering vs flavoring is less pronounced. I think "hoppiness" does boil down (no punn intended) to your balancing of bittering/flavoring/aroma hops as well as type (IE I like some of the more recent high AA hops more then others). I've noticed IBU rating alone won't necessarily indicate how hoppy a beer will taste.

 

[chri5]

TAnd barleywines don't taste anything like DFH 90, plus they are a higher ABV.

The first thing I thought when I tasted DFH90 was, "Wow. Why didn't they call this a barleywine." It wouldn't be an extreme example of barleywine, but it would certainly be in the range.

For my taste, there is very little in the way of hoppiness to this beer. Of course, Ruination is my absolute fave beer, so I've definitely tuned myself into big hop flavor.

 

[davesrose]

The first thing I thought when I tasted DFH90 was, "Wow. Why didn't they call this a barleywine." It wouldn't be an extreme example of barleywine, but it would certainly be in the range.

I don't see it as a barleywine....a good example of a hoppy barleywine to me is Rogue's Old Crustacean: 110 IBU, ABV 11.5, 85% attenuation. It still has some nice smooth maltiness (and not a sweeter one from a lot of specialty grains). I've also noticed some barleywines that don't have a high IBU still will try to keep specialty grains to a minimum.....the thing about many "American" imperial styles is that they do throw in all sorts of things to get ABV up (and may have more unfermentable sugars that also ups sweetness).

 

[Dave6187]

A few weeks back I picked up a mixed case of 60 and 90 min for a party. I absoluetly love the 60, and plan on making some of that myself. The 90 was friggen awesome as well, but was a little too much in terms of body for me to drink it all night. My gf kinda enjoyed the 60 as well, which is saying something considering she hates most beer....

 

[user 22118]

Originally posted by chri5
The first thing I thought when I tasted DFH90 was, "Wow. Why didn't they call this a barleywine." It wouldn't be an extreme example of barleywine, but it would certainly be in the range.

My thoughts exactly. In fact, I would not be having this discussion if it was called a barleywine. I would look at it in a different light completely. Not saying it would change my view on liking or disliking the beer, just from a critique (not the word I want to use, just can't think of another) sense.

I don't see it as a barleywine....a good example of a hoppy barleywine to me is Rogue's Old Crustacean:

.....the thing about many "American" imperial styles is that they do throw in all sorts of things to get ABV up (and may have more unfermentable sugars that also ups sweetness).

And barleywines don't taste anything like DFH 90, plus they are a higher ABV. I do think DFH is doing fine by calling the 90 minute a DIPA....it does seem to fit the characteristics for me, even if it is too sweet for my tastes. I also wouldn't go by attenuation in judging sweetness either.

My rye IPA seems to be having a ABV of 8 and the FG is right at 1.020....it's not sweet at all due to the heavy amount of rye and little crystal.

With the 90 minute having 90 IBU, it does have plenty of hops

I am glad that we can have a good debate like this to iron out different thoughts on the same subject. And I love a good Rye IPA, just kicked my keg of the stuff that was 8.5%. Have three pints of that and you wake up without your pants, sleeping in the garage

In the top where you mention Rogue, it is hoppy and I didn't find the 90 minute to have the hop prowess I thought it would. Where you mention it not being a barleywine, I want to show how the BJCP describes a barleywine. They can call their beer whatever, but to me this is an accurate description of what I taste in the 90min:

Flavor: Strong, intense malt flavor with noticeable bitterness. Moderately low to moderately high malty sweetness on the palate, although the finish may be somewhat sweet to quite dry (depending on aging). Hop bitterness may range from moderately strong to aggressive. While strongly malty, the balance should always seem bitter. Moderate to high hop flavor (any variety). Low to moderate fruity esters. Noticeable alcohol presence, but sharp or solventy alcohol flavors are undesirable. Flavors will smooth out and decline over time, but any oxidized character should be muted (and generally be masked by the hop character). May have some bready or caramelly malt flavors, but these should not be high. Roasted or burnt malt flavors are inappropriate. No diacetyl.

The second sentence alone nails what I tasted in the 90min.

When I think about IPA, the first thing that comes to mind is hop aroma. If I am drinking a Pale Ale then I want bitterness from hops, though not as much the aroma of hops. IPA also is dry, sometimes on the edge of bone dry from both the hops and the attenuation. When I think DIPA, I think higher alcohol, but still dry finish and hoppy aroma. There can be more sugar left in it, but the bitterness of the hops and the hop acid should make it have the perception of dryness. The 90 minute to me missed its mark there by not having any hop aroma (maybe I got an old bottle when I retried it last month, but at the beer fest it was a fresh keg and I don't remember any aroma) and then by being sweet. Not just malty, but sweet.

That is why I wouldn't call it an IPA, but a barleywine. And under the BJCP guidelines, the Imperial IPA can have an OG of up to 1.090, where the barleywine goes from 1.080-1.120. And as a barleywine, I think it is an excellent example.








*Another Disclaimer - the local god here, Russian River, calls their Pliny the Elder and their Pliny the Younger both Imperial IPA. The Younger is definately barleywine strength at 10.5%abv and is hopped to bejesus, but they still call it an IIPA. So DFH can keep calling them whatever they want.

 

[davesrose]

I am glad that we can have a good debate like this to iron out different thoughts on the same subject.

I agree...beer geeks are always going to have differences of opinion since we have different taste palates and preferences

Just to re-itterate what I think of as a barleywine vs a DIPA....a barleywine to me can be more subtle and is meant more of a sipping beer like wine. I think of it as normally having a good balance between not overly citrusy hops and a pure malt base profile that will not hinder it too dry or sweet.

If I'm going to quote the BJCP, the area that makes it hard for me to see the 90 minute as being a barleywine is this:

"Low to moderate fruity esters. Noticeable alcohol presence, but sharp or solventy alcohol flavors are undesirable. Flavors will smooth out and decline over time, but any oxidized character should be muted (and generally be masked by the hop character). May have some bready or caramelly malt flavors, but these should not be high."

I think the main thing you don't like about the 90 minute is that it doesn't have agressively bitter hops (I think it's got plenty of flavor hops, but I agree that it's not an aggressive in your face hop). But to me, those sweet notes coming from the 90 minute are the undesirables of a barleywine From taste preferences, it actually looks like we have very similar preferences. I too like dry IPAs, but I've noticed the ones I don't like can get quite sweet (and this is more of a caramel to fruity sweet then subtle malt sweet). I've had some other DIPAs where I go yuck over the sweetness or hotness (the 90 minute isn't the prime example, but it's subtley like that: too fruity and hot): I haven't had that with barleywines or imperial stouts...since they tend to use less caramel malts or balance it with roasted malts. Actually, for just enjoying hoppy beers, I probably prefer sticking with an insane IBU and aroma in an ABV 8% range or below. Once it goes above 10%, give me a smooth barleywine or an insanely hopped imperial stout

Oh, one more thing:

There can be more sugar left in it, but the bitterness of the hops and the hop acid should make it have the perception of dryness. The 90 minute to me missed its mark there by not having any hop aroma (maybe I got an old bottle when I retried it last month, but at the beer fest it was a fresh keg and I don't remember any aroma) and then by being sweet.

See, I agree with you from a preference thing. But one thing I've notice about hops is that it is a balancing act. I have had IPAs that get a citrusy pucker and sweetness (from both the flavor hops and specialty malts) because they didn't have as much bittering or aroma hops (and I think flavoring hops can add its own fruity esters if not tamed by bittering AA). With the 90 minutes I've had...they've had a more subtle hop profile then some other DIPAs....I did get some aroma and flavor. But there wasn't as much hop bitterness as I'd like, and it was a bit too sweet from those particular hops as well as specialty grains (ie more fruity and caramelly then malty).

 

[user 22118]

In this day and age I like to think that we are all able to get beer at its freshest no matter the distance from the original brewery. I mean, what is a week going to do in terms of flavor? That said, I just drank a bottled Pliny the Elder tonight (bottled 6/10/09) and it had zero malt smell, sits pretty at 8%abv and has "let's call it" the same IBU (though I think technically it is more around 85 or so, but some say high as 200, so...). It is a very healthy DIPA and features everything that I like to think any DIPA that I try to brew should have. Malty balance in the taste, acid from the hops, balanced bitterness and a beautiful hop aroma. That hop aroma to me is key. If there is no hop aroma then I start searching for a different class of beer to place it in. In fact, if someone dry hops a barleywine and then ages it for two years I almost want to say that they have wasted the hops.

That said and returning to my original point, I might have gotten an older bottle of the 90min that had aged enough that the hop aroma was gone. I don't think so though. Also, the bitterness was not apparent and the only thing I can chalk that up to is the fact that they don't attenuate down below 1.020. I can't think of it any other way. They also don't get the ph low enough. I measured my last IIPA at 4.5ph. It tasted that way too. The hop acids come through amazingly well.

Balance is the key and without it you have a beer that tastes flat. To me, the 90 min is not balanced well. Again, there are so many different palates and tastes that I can not say that it is a terribly made beer and that no one should ever drink it because it is ****. I can however not purchase it myself and leave more for all of you fans out there

all around the border of the label it says things like "drink young" "Pliny the Elder is a historic figure, don't let this beer become one" and I gather that is because of the half life of hop aroma from dry hopping

 

[davesrose]

In this day and age I like to think that we are all able to get beer at its freshest no matter the distance from the original brewery. I mean, what is a week going to do in terms of flavor? That said, I just drank a bottled Pliny the Elder tonight (bottled 6/10/09) and it had zero malt smell, sits pretty at 8%abv and has "let's call it" the same IBU (though I think technically it is more around 85 or so, but some say high as 200, so...). It is a very healthy DIPA and features everything that I like to think any DIPA that I try to brew should have.

Oh man, I'm so envious:cross: I've been wanting to try Pliny the Elder, but it's not here in GA. I heard from one of the beer stores that GA has an old single distributer policy (and the distributer for the Atlanta region doesn't carry Russian River). But yeah, I notice that most bottles of Great Divide (from Colorado) are dated and tend to be under 3 months old. But their DIPA has a hoppier feeling then 90 Minute (and I believe their stated IBU is 85)...it's not as sweet as 90 Minute either. And for an East coast beer that's close to Dogfish in location....I think you'd like Weyerbacher's DIPA much better. If a beer isn't going to be balanced, I guess I'd rather it be weighted towards overly hoppy, roasted, or genuine malt....I don't like overly sweet.

As for bitterness with a DIPA....have you tried a continual hop schedule? The more I'm experimenting, the more I'm less of a fan of continual hopping. With batches I've tried, I seem to get more of an aroma and flavor, but less bitterness. I do think that to get a nice feeling of hops (whether subtle or intense), it's nice to go with a set bitter to flavor to aroma schedule. I do think that's more important then FG, since I've had plenty of beers turn out with desired attenuation that was above 1.020, and weren't that kind of fruity sweetness I taste with the sweet DIPAs.

 

[SteveM]

In this day and age I like to think that we are all able to get beer at its freshest no matter the distance from the original brewery. I mean, what is a week going to do in terms of flavor?

I mentioned this issue early in the thread - that the folks who don't care as much for DFH tend to be far from the brewery. I don't think it's just a matter of regional preferences (but who knows?).

On paper, transporting beer should not be all that tough to do, but having worked in the logistics business for 30 years, I can tell you that what works on paper seldom works exactly the same way in reality. The cost of true "cold chain management" is enormous and would push the cost of beer through the stratosphere. So you are left at the mercy of truck drivers, truck reefer systems and minimum wage loaders and unloaders. Hey, what could go wrong?

 

[user 22118]

I mentioned this issue early in the thread - that the folks who don't care as much for DFH tend to be far from the brewery. I don't think it's just a matter of regional preferences (but who knows?).

I agree that there are a lot of factors, especially with a more fragile product like beer. I don't want my beer cooked in a truck for four days while it journeys across the states. That said, Stone brewery is known as being an exceptional beer on both sides of the country and are known for their hop flavors and aromas.

1. Oh man, I'm so envious:cross: I've been wanting to try Pliny the Elder, but it's not here in GA. I heard from one of the beer stores that GA has an old single distributer policy (and the distributer for the Atlanta region doesn't carry Russian River).

2. I think you'd like Weyerbacher's DIPA much better. If a beer isn't going to be balanced, I guess I'd rather it be weighted towards overly hoppy, roasted, or genuine malt....I don't like overly sweet.

3. As for bitterness with a DIPA....have you tried a continual hop schedule?

4. I do think that's more important then FG, since I've had plenty of beers turn out with desired attenuation that was above 1.020, and weren't that kind of fruity sweetness I taste with the sweet DIPAs.

1. That is known to happen which is why distribution is such a pain in the neck for so many people and breweries. I just picked up an Avery Maharaja DIPA, but haven't tried it. I have been told it is good and would check it out if you can.

2. I will try Weyerbacher's if I find it at my local store. The next part of what you are saying is what I described as being the geographical preference. There can be overly bitter for me, but not overly hoppy in the aroma and flavor. Malty works well in balance (we're talking DIPA's here) along with the hoppy bitter and it is a fine line to walk them both. I personally don't like Lagunitas IPA because I feel that they make too bitter of a beer. I keep trying it, but to no avail.

3. I have not as I haven't found a beer that employs this method that I want to copy.

4. In DIPA if you are finishing above 1.020 then I think that you are not attenuating enough. It might work for your taste buds, but other IPA fans might find it to be sweet if there isn't enough bitter to balance it out. I made up one that was right at 1.020 and I was worried about it not maintaining that balance, so I dry hopped the crap out of it to make sure that it wasn't sweet. Of course, after the dry hop started to wear off that malty sweetness started to come back and so now I try to have it attenuate to the 1.018 level or so. It's a fine line though, because I had another get all the way down to 1.012 and it was way too dry for the amount of hops that I put in. Overpoweringly citrus and pine and hop acid.

 

[davesrose]

4. In DIPA if you are finishing above 1.020 then I think that you are not attenuating enough. It might work for your taste buds, but other IPA fans might find it to be sweet if there isn't enough bitter to balance it out.

Well it also does depend on your grainbill. Sure, if you have a relatively simple DIPA recipe that uses say nothing but crystal malt and honey, then that extra F.G. will be from unfermented sugars (crystal and certain types of honey give you caramelized sugars that do add sweetness). Dogfish might indeed have a higher FG due to there being sweeter unfermentable sugars . But I was just making sure that if we generalize...we do have a distinction between the term "sweet" vs "malty". That plus gravity readings do not just read sugar/ IE sweet tastes (it just reads density).

 

[user 22118]

agreed 78910

 

[FreeM80s]

So my state does not carry dogfish Luckily I have really awesome friends and i just scored a 4pk of 90 and 4 120min's. I'm gonna save the 120's for my next brew day, but i just really had to say something about this 90min: FUNKIN AWESOME! People like the makers of doghead make me want to be a better brewer. This is the reason I got into homebrewing and gives me a reason to want to step my game up. Kudos dogfish :rockin::fro:

 

[user 22118]

Glad that they have inspired you to hopefully make better beer. Still don't really enjoy their beer.