Dog help

[Bedlam]

I'm upset right at this moment, so forgive me if my organization isn't the best. I was just in the middle of a dogfight and quite unhappy.

I'm a pretty experienced dog owner and familiar with pack behavior. I have two dogs. The first, Goodman, is a lab mix adopted from the shelter 4 years or so ago. He's big and mellow. About 105 lbs and intelligent. He never challenges my leadership.

My other dog is Otto, a purebred boxer adopted from a puppy mill. He was burned as a very young pup by the neglect of, probably, a heat lamp. We got him right at 2 months old and he's about 2 years old now. He's about 65 lbs and very energetic. He seems to continually challenge me. He's a joy, but a challenge.

Otto has started to show some food aggression of late. He doesn't mind me messing with his food and I make apoint to do so frequently, but gets REALLY jealous of Goodman. On the few occasions I've seen it happen, Otto seems to start it, but gets his ass kicked by Goodman, because of the size difference. He's had his face bitten a couple of times, twice right around the eye. That scares me. Afterwards, Goodman shys away from Otto, seems to be leery of him and takes a bit of time to warm back up to him. Each time, I immediately put Otto into submissive position for a bit and things will be okay for a few days.

Tonight, I let them in and they settled down on the dogbed as usual. I sat on the floor between them and was petting them. They were both loving it, when suddenly Otto just went for Goodman, right over me. I tore part of a fingernail off and got scratched incidentally as I broke them up. As usual, it was only for a few seconds, I put Otto into submissive position AGAIN, and Goodman made himself scarce for a while. Turns out, Goodman had a little piece of rawhide I didn't see and that's what precipitated the fight. Add to that the fact I was, to Otto's perspective, belly-up and probably looked less pack-leaderish to him just before it happened. Again, Otto DID NOT go for me; He went after Goodman.

But I'm sick of it and would like to hear some suggestions from the experienced dog people around here. I don't want this to get worse and I don't want any injuries. Still, part of me says to just leave it alone, since Otto's getting his clock cleaned, and let them sort it out.

Appreciate any ideas, here. Thanks.

 

[ChshreCat]

I don't have a solution, but wanted to say that leaving it alone is definitely not an option. Otto may be getting is clock cleaned when he goes after Goodman, but what happens if he encounters a smaller dog? Or a child that has food? Not something I'd want to think about.

I've dealt with food aggression between dog and human, but not between dogs so I'm not sure how to help you with it.

 

[Tripod]

Greetings!

Man that is quite a story and a little familiar to me as well! I have a pure-bred boxer, too. "Luger" is about 5 years old now but his first two years were just INSANE! We also have a 9 year old Doberman, "Kale" and those two used to do the exact same thing for what seemed to be no reason other than jealousy.

What works for us is to exercise the BAH-GEE-SUS out of Luger until he is just too tired to pull that kind of crap. We are fortunate enough to have a fenced-in back yard so I can let the pups play even if I can't be with them. I recommend walking Otto - even jogging with him. And when I say "walk" I don't mean a block or two - I'm talking a mile or two. You'll know when he is beat because he'll slow down and pant heavier. Plus you'll get the benefit of exercise, too. It's win-win...

Outside of that, I know boxers mature slowly but will eventually chill-out. Unfortunately, many adopted boxers become outside-only dogs because of exactly what you described. DON'T GIVE UP ON OTTO! He just needs to be worn out every single day. He WILL come around...

Good Luck!

-Tripod

 

[HBHoss]

I've known a few Boxers and found them to be great soccer players They are quite a bit lower on the attention span scale than a lab so they take a lot longer and a lot more repetition to train. Are they both neutered? Boxers can be quite headstrong so maintain the dominance always.

 

[BigKahuna]

I don't have a solution, but wanted to say that leaving it alone is definitely not an option.

Again...we have to disagree.
Dogs are primal animals, no matter how bad we want them to be humans. They simply MUST decide a social order. Perhaps the older dog is a jerk, and perhaps will have to be dealt with, but I'd let them fight it out a few times before I got too worried about it.

And as a side note, Just because a dog is aggressive toward another dog in his domain, is no reason to think that he would ever be aggressive toward a child, or another dog. He sees a threat to his dominate mail position in the house, and he's prepared to die defending it. It's a little thing they call NATURE. You MIGHT be able to break it....but it'll be very difficult.

 

[ChshreCat]

Again...we have to disagree.
Dogs are primal animals, no matter how bad we want them to be humans. They simply MUST decide a social order. Perhaps the older dog is a jerk, and perhaps will have to be dealt with, but I'd let them fight it out a few times before I got too worried about it.

And as a side note, Just because a dog is aggressive toward another dog in his domain, is no reason to think that he would ever be aggressive toward a child, or another dog. He sees a threat to his dominate mail position in the house, and he's prepared to die defending it. It's a little thing they call NATURE. You MIGHT be able to break it....but it'll be very difficult.

But this doesn't sound like it's just sorting out a pecking order to me. It sounds like the dog seeing food and wanting to take it. A little different in my experience.

 

[mrfocus]

Just a few suggestions, you may already follow them.

As a pack leader, you should always eat first. (I actually don't respect that cause my lab knows she'll be lucky as hell to get food from me when I'm eating and she rarely puts my leadership into question.) Make a point of it to eat before them, possibly putting your plate next to their bowl for a minute while eating out of it, or at least chewing while you're sitting next to their bowls.

Second of all, seems like Otto is around the challenging age (~2 y.o.) where he is putting the hierarchy of the pack into question. He wants to take Goodman's place as second in the pack. Except as it is, he shouldn't really try since from what you've said, he'll get the living daylights knocked out of him.

To remedy that, I would recommend reinforcing the hierarchy by eating first, then feeding Goodman, deliberately keeping Otto from trying to eat it (as he may think "hey, I should be eating too"). Then when Goodman is nice and done, feed Otto.

Another tip, when you go outside, you should be the first out of the door/down the steps and try and keep Goodman second and Otto third. This will, once again reaffirm your pack-leader status and the hierarchy of the pack.

As Tripod suggested, exercising your dogs (especially Otto) is important.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tripod]

I've known a few Boxers and found them to be great soccer players

+1 to that! My boxer LOVES the soccer ball. Get Otto a ball and kick for him to chase.

-Tripod

 

[gplutt]

Just a few suggestions, you may already follow them.

As a pack leader, you should always eat first. (I actually don't respect that cause my lab knows she'll be lucky as hell to get food from me when I'm eating and she rarely puts my leadership into question.) Make a point of it to eat before them, possibly putting your plate next to their bowl for a minute while eating out of it, or at least chewing while you're sitting next to their bowls.

Second of all, seems like Otto is around the challenging age (~2 y.o.) where he is putting the hierarchy of the pack into question. He wants to take Goodman's place as second in the pack. Except as it is, he shouldn't really try since from what you've said, he'll get the living daylights knocked out of him.

To remedy that, I would recommend reinforcing the hierarchy by eating first, then feeding Goodman, deliberately keeping Otto from trying to eat it (as he may think "hey, I should be eating too"). Then when Goodman is nice and done, feed Otto.

Another tip, when you go outside, you should be the first out of the door/down the steps and try and keep Goodman second and Otto third. This will, once again reaffirm your pack-leader status and the hierarchy of the pack.

As Tripod suggested, exercising your dogs (especially Otto) is important.

Hope this helps.

I showed my swmbo this thread, and this was her reply; almost word for word.

 

[BigKahuna]

It sounds like the dog seeing food and wanting to take it. A little different in my experience.

DAMMIT!
That means I agree with you too!

 

[dibby33]

Yeup. You are the boss. My dog always follows me out the door. He sits before eating and only does so when told. Whenever I am eating something I give him the last bit. He does not get fed at the table, or outside at the BBQ. That and a couple of spanks when he was young to *inform* him of correct / incorrect behaviour.
Good luck.

 

[jrakich87]

Sounds like Otto needs to get his BUTT WHOOPED.

+1 on exercise, my Jack Russell acts completely different and barks at strangers when he doesn't go on runs 2 times a day...

 

[Ridge Runner]

Just a few suggestions, you may already follow them.

As a pack leader, you should always eat first. (I actually don't respect that cause my lab knows she'll be lucky as hell to get food from me when I'm eating and she rarely puts my leadership into question.) Make a point of it to eat before them, possibly putting your plate next to their bowl for a minute while eating out of it, or at least chewing while you're sitting next to their bowls.

Second of all, seems like Otto is around the challenging age (~2 y.o.) where he is putting the hierarchy of the pack into question. He wants to take Goodman's place as second in the pack. Except as it is, he shouldn't really try since from what you've said, he'll get the living daylights knocked out of him.

To remedy that, I would recommend reinforcing the hierarchy by eating first, then feeding Goodman, deliberately keeping Otto from trying to eat it (as he may think "hey, I should be eating too"). Then when Goodman is nice and done, feed Otto.

Another tip, when you go outside, you should be the first out of the door/down the steps and try and keep Goodman second and Otto third. This will, once again reaffirm your pack-leader status and the hierarchy of the pack.

As Tripod suggested, exercising your dogs (especially Otto) is important.

Hope this helps.

The above is pretty much what I'm doing with our 4 mo. old Beagle pup. The rest of the family is'nt quite on board yet but I really see progress. Consistency is the key. And the whole Alpha thing...

 

[Bedlam]

Just a few suggestions, you may already follow them.

As a pack leader, you should always eat first. (I actually don't respect that cause my lab knows she'll be lucky as hell to get food from me when I'm eating and she rarely puts my leadership into question.) Make a point of it to eat before them, possibly putting your plate next to their bowl for a minute while eating out of it, or at least chewing while you're sitting next to their bowls.

Second of all, seems like Otto is around the challenging age (~2 y.o.) where he is putting the hierarchy of the pack into question. He wants to take Goodman's place as second in the pack. Except as it is, he shouldn't really try since from what you've said, he'll get the living daylights knocked out of him.

To remedy that, I would recommend reinforcing the hierarchy by eating first, then feeding Goodman, deliberately keeping Otto from trying to eat it (as he may think "hey, I should be eating too"). Then when Goodman is nice and done, feed Otto.

Another tip, when you go outside, you should be the first out of the door/down the steps and try and keep Goodman second and Otto third. This will, once again reaffirm your pack-leader status and the hierarchy of the pack.

As Tripod suggested, exercising your dogs (especially Otto) is important.

Hope this helps.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I haven't re-inforced Goodman's position. Hadn't thought about it. I think he's only challenging Goodman.

I've focused on me being the recognized pack leader and do all the other things mentioned about going first down the steps and such. Both dogs have to sit politely before being fed, and no matter how cold it is outside, they have to sit politely in front of the open door until the human SAYS they can come on in.

Otto does not show any aggression toward humans of any age, food or otherwise. Our neighbors three year old is forever running around with Popsicles or candy in his hand and Otto trails merrily along, whenever the kid stops for a minute, Otto plops his butt down politely like he does for me, hoping the kid will give him a bite. No problem.

As for other dogs, Otto is playful with smaller dogs and loves a new friend. But food's never involved at those times, so I can't be sure. He will sit and drool from a distance when our kitten is eating and I'm in the room. Not aggressive in the least, but can be sneaky if my attention lapses.

I think exercise is one of the problems, though, and I've thought of that, too. We keep our dogs busy, but not worn out. That should be able to change when we move to our new house in a couple of weeks. They'll have free run in a National Forest and I'll be hiking the trails with them regularly.

Thanks to everyone for the advice! I'll work on reinforcing Goodman's position and go from there.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

My parents have always owned two dogs at a time (labs, terriers, retrievers) staggered a couple years apart. We have always left them to figure out their pack status and in our case the dogs have always played nice. They constantly wrestle and chase each other around struggling for dominance (I would assume) but the older dogs have always maintained their status until they were very old, by which point the younger dogs have always just respected the position of the older dog (maybe they are just nice dogs???) We have found that this play keep the dogs in fantastic shape and much happier overall.

Maybe it would be best to allow them to figure it out on their own. Unless you think one is trying to kill the other....

 

[VatorMan]

I showed my swmbo this thread, and this was her reply; almost word for word.

I did that to my swmbo-pushed her away from the dinner table and got smacked. WTF?

 

[Damonic]

+1 for exercise.

Secondly, there's no such thing as a pecking order in a balanced pack. It's ALPHA DOG (you) and the PACK (everybody else). If Otto is trying to dominate Goodman its because he isn't fully recognizing that you're the pack leader. That being said I too agree with you eating first and showing you "own" the bowls and food. Then allowing Goodman to eat and then Otto. It sound like you understand pack mentality and are doing things right. You may just have to work it a little more and exercise is key.

 

[Orfy]

I'd take the food treats away while it is a problem.
Only give them when you are there and take them away when you are not.

Boxers are not the brightest of breeds and at 2 they are probably at their most dominant age.

The lab probably doesn't need it but while there are problems yo have to be more dominant.

You need to be tough. That's how pack leaders deal with it. If there is an issue get aggressive. (Or make them think you are)

 

[TeleTwanger]

I've got an English Bulldog and a little ****z Shu and the little dog always badgers the bigger dog. The bigger dog usually hold back but recently she just had sugery to remove a tumor and so the other dog is biting at the shaved/stitched area. The bigger dog could easliy destroy the little dog but she holds back and even runs away sometimes. Often I wished she would beat the crap out of the little mutt but she won't and we usually break it up. My feeling is that getting the little dog 'fixed' will fix the problem. Kind of drastic though.

 

[Orfy]

I think all pet dogs should be "fixed". I took it for granted it was.
If it isn't fixed it isn't a pet.

 

[flyangler18]

I think all pet dogs should be "fixed". I took it for granted it was.
If it isn't fixed it isn't a pet.

+1. Unless you plan on breeding/showing, there's just no reason to have them 'intact'.

When we adopted our beagle from the SPCA, mandatory neutering was part of the adoption agreement.

 

[Orfy]

They are then show/working dogs not pets. You should then expect problems and probably fights.

 

[Bedlam]

Both of my guys are fixed and have been for quite a while. Goodman came from the shelter already fixed and Otto was fixed at the appropriate age. As the owner of several rescue pets, I am wholeheartedly in favor of owner responsibility in that regard.

 

[Tripod]

Bedlam, Anything new too share? How are the pups?

 

[HairyDogBrewing]

We had 2 Australian Shepards, a male puppy (Lager) and an older female (Lacey).
All was good.
Then we adopted another young male (Bowie), just out of puppyhood.
Bowie would pester Lager into a fight every couple of weeks.
We tried all the dominance stuff, but I think Bowie had a "upwardly mobile" mindset and Lager was having none of it.
Over six months there were several trips to the vet and doctor.
Every day after work I expected to find one of them dead.
Finally, Bowie found a new home with a much older dog that doesn't want to be dominant.

So, in the end, our best efforts and expert advice couldn't overcome a personality conflict.
As for breaking up a fight, don't work on the sharp ends.
If you have help, grab their back legs and pull until they let go.

 

[Bedlam]

Sorry to be absent folks, but that's what happens when you are trying to move!

(Not to mention that our new place only has dial-up 'net for now. Thanks to Embarq, who LIED to us about DSL. )

Here's the update:

We moved to our little cabin on the mountain and immediately Otto (the boxer) started going after Goodman again. I mean, the actual day we moved the dogs out here, Otto went for him. The first two fights, El Hubbo and I broke it up, made both submit to us and released, but the situation was very tense. Goodman would shy away from Otto, who thought he'd won.

Well, the third fight got started a little distance away from us, and what do you know! By the time we got there, Goodman, our mellow dog, finally had gotten PISSED about it and was fired up. I told El Hubbo we'd let 'em fight this one out and Goodman made Otto submit not once, but twice. Otto suffered a minor ear tear that bled like stink, but was no big deal. Still, Otto well and truly got his ass kicked by Goodman in a real way that time.

Soon after this fight, things went back to normal. Dogs playing with each other, sharing toys, the whole nine yards. This lasted for over a week, but today Otto did it again. This time, we didn't intervene and it was a very short fight. It re-opened Otto's ear wound, but again, no big deal. Tense situation now, again, and we'll just have to see how it plays out. (Otto's so dense. It's cold here now, and Goodman is like a little doggie-furnace. Otto, with no body fat and little fur, is really sh!tting his nest by picking a fight with his best option for a heat source.)

I think, at this junction, that Otto's behavior has to do with trying to establish dominance here at the new place. There's no other reason that I can think of, now. They have 5 acres to play on here, and there's lots of hiking with us and exercise. I think we will let them sort it out, as what I was doing before didn't work. If it continues or gets excessive, I'll seek out a trainer or behaviorist for consultation.

Thoughts?

 

[mr_goodwrench]

Jill, first of all, congrats on the new place! A cabin up in the woods sounds like absolute heaven!

As far as your dog issues, I am surprised I missed your original post. SWMBO & I have had at least two dogs since shortly after we were married. We have had mostly Scottish Terriers with a mix thrown in the mix for good measure. We also spent several years before we had our daughter as a foster home for Scottie Rescue. During that time, we had lots of different dogs in the house along with our own pack. They were all different ages, and dispositions and had to be handled pretty much the same.

The first thing I would say is that you are on the right track with trying to establish pack leadership. What I would say though is that there can be only one Alpha. You and El Hubbo need to work out who that is gonna be and stick with it. The dogs must be submissive to ALL humans but there can only be one leader. In our pack(which I view as dogs + humans) I am the Alpha ~ just how we decided it. Both SWMBO and I will put a dog in a submissive position when it is necessary, but they know that I am the boss. She threw me a bone & let me be in charge of one thing...

We have come to see food as a major issue with dogs ~ especially terriers! I agree with everyone else who said you must eat first. Our dogs get fed twice daily. In the morning, I am the only one up before going to work so I eat breakfast and the dogs know that once I am done, they eat. In the evening, they know that all humans(including our 6 year old daughter who at times takes FOREVER to eat dinner) must finish eating before they eat their dinner. We also feed the dogs separately due to the fact that one will scarf his food and try to intimidate the others away from their dishes. All humans in the house are able to take food right out of their dishes without them even being phased.

As far as letting them 'fight it out', it looks like from your last post, that things are shaking out. I wouldn't let them go at it so that they get hurt, but a little nip I wouldn't worry much about. The tough thing is treating them like dogs and not coddling the loser. The low dog on the totem pole should be treated that way. Not to be cruel, but to reinforce pack hierarchy. When everyone knows where they stand, no one is confused. I always greet everyone in order of the pack when i get home from work for example. And especially while you are dealing with this issue, I would stay off the floor with them. Especially as you pointed out being in a submissive belly up position. When I play with the dogs on the floor, I am always in a dominant pose. I am not by any means mean to the dogs, just firm. We love the dogs like they are our own kids.

I also want to thank you for rescuing a puppy mill dog. Our youngest Scottie is a female who was rescued from a puppy mill along with some of her litter mates and the father...unfortunately they sold the mother off before the rescue coordinator could get in to buy them all. She has terrible trouble with food allergies and can only eat beans, potatoes and some vegetables. She spent the first year and a half of her life doing nothing but itching until we figured out many of the things she was allergic to. We call her our million dollar dog because she has been to the vet and the Cornell Vet Clinic too many times to count!

Good luck with your dogs, and keep us posted! And sorry for the long reply ~ dogs are one thing I am passionate about along with beer!

 

[mr_goodwrench]

Oh yeah, moving to a new house is stressful on everyone, dogs included. We have had plenty of issues with dogs after moving to a new house. Most of our issues revolved around chewing or messing in the house, but this could be playing into Otto's behavior at the moment as well.

 

[Sastrugi]

Hi-

I'm new here but a long-time dog person, from labs to sled teams, and Boxers in particular for several years now thanks to my wife (who is currently a vet student). When she and I first got together she had an older Boxer (Otis) and we adopted one together -- a shelter dog that had been neglected and was deaf on top of it (Milo), who was not yet a year old.

We naturally assumed Otis would be the dominant dog. Milo had other ideas. He was sick when we got him but once he recovered and settled in he started picking on Otis over things like food, treats, and -- as you describe in your post -- attention from us. We broke it up (Otis was getting old and didn't need the hassle) but it still got bloody from time to time.

We took Milo to trainers and worked hard with him (I did most of the training and so became the Alpha), and I second everything mrfocus said. It's all about hierarchy. Dogs will be dogs, so the owner needs to take control and -- this is key -- be very consistent. Exercise the dog (this helps a lot!). And like mr goodwrench said, decide which of you will be Alpha and Beta (Milo still tries to challenge my wife in subtle ways, like getting in between us when we're sitting on the couch together).

We also -- and I know I'm setting myself up for some good razzing -- put him on fluoxetine, also known as Prozac. Yep, for real. I thought it was absurd when our vet suggested it but it actually reduced Milo's anxiety enough to make him trainable. We tried to wean him off it a couple of times and he got out of hand. So, it actually works on dogs. I know they're marketing it under another name now for separation anxiety -- and charging a premium for it -- but we get the regular generic people stuff at the pharmacy and it's pretty cheap, about $10 a month.

EDIT: One other thing I thought of after re-reading your posts: one of the biggest obstacles we had was in accepting that Milo was going to be dominant over Otis. It didn't make sense to us (and kind of pissed us off: who did this little whipper-snapper think he was?), but in their world that was what was going on. By treating Otis as the dominant one even though he acted submissive to Milo we were probably prolonging the struggle. If Goodman shies away after a fight, it sounds like he's letting Otto be dominant (a dominant dog is jacked up after a fight -- think Begbie in "Trainspotting" -- not slinking away), though maybe that's changed after their last scrap when he cleaned Otto's clock.

 

[Bedlam]

Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest in the case. Every time I log on, I pick up new and valuable info!

I'll keep you all posted, as dial-up allows...

 

[Tripod]

First, congrats on the move!

I think you are spot-on about the relocation being a source of confusion for the pups. By nature, dogs look for opportunities to challenge the order and moving into a new place that is strange to both dogs is a perfect time in their eyes. In your old place, Goodman at least had time to make it smell like his home. In contrst, your new place doesn't yet smell like either dog. By the way, I'm not calling your dogs smelly! I'm just saying dogs live by scent...even ancient ones and they ID each other that way even if they smell like roses.

Boxers just take extra time to get the message sometimes. It sounds like you are doing everything right.

Good Luck!

-Tripod