Does wort return method matter much?

[55x11]

Never written all this out before, but I'll give it a try. And know that this stuff isn't set in stone. I'm still learning things with each brew day and making changes. Here's what it is as it stands today.

Here are the specifics of my system:
eBIAB with recirculating mash
62 quart Bayou Classic
MK II pump
Brau Supply 120 v controller (PID)
2x1500 watt elements, one mounted to the kettle, second is a Hot Rod from @Bobby_M
Mash cap made from very large stainless steel cake pan and a bulkhead + tee in the middle
Loc line wort return under mash cap
Plate Chiller, stainless steel brazed with copper

DO Meter:
Don’t have one and I acknowledge the fact that I’m completely flying blind until I get one. At this point I’m simply taking the steps that I know will reduce DO. A meter will be handy when I get to the point where I’ve done everything that I feel is feasible, and if I think my beer still isn’t where it should be then I’ll buy one to trouble shoot the leaks in my process.

Oxygen Scavenging:
Baker’s yeast and dextrose at a dosage rate of 1.6 g/gal and 0.8 g/gal, respectively. Turn on the pump to circulate water and remove air pockets from the system. Allow it to sit for between 45 minutes and 2 hours, depending on what I have going on at the time. Dose with SMB at the end of that time, before ramping up the temp. I’m still trying to figure out how much SMB to use. Was using 100 mg/L because of some misinformation in the PDF that was published, but that was producing some very sulfury beers. Dialed it back down to 25 mg/L the last brew day. No sulfur on the nose, but that might be too low because preliminary results look like the beer came out darker than last time. Will probably go up to 30 mg/L next go round.

WORT PRODUCTION
Milling:
I condition the grain with 1-2% water by weight. I have been adding a pinch of SMB to the conditioning water, but I don’t know that this is necessary. Milling is done as close to dough in as is feasible.

Mash:
I keep hoses as short as possible and use clamps on all my QD to hose barb connections to make sure no oxygen is leaking in. Instead of underletting, I have been slowly lowering the bag full of grain into the mash water. This could be a source of O2 pick up for me, but having read another DO meter wielding BIABer’s account of the issue, it shouldn’t be. I stir minimally with a 24” whisk, trying not to bring any grains to the surface. After that, I put the mash cap in place, let the mash sit a few minutes, then and fire up the pump.

Boiling:
I simmer. I keep boil off rates at 10% or less of initial volume. This is easy to do with an electric system and a controller. For a typical 6 gallon batch I will set the PID to 30% with the other element at 100%, directly plugged into the outlet.

Chiller:
Per the German Brewing folks, the copper in my chiller isn’t ideal. Supposedly there are some super-duper oxidizers found in the oxide layer on copper and aluminum. At this point I’m not convinced that the little amount of copper used to braze those stainless steel plates together is doing much. Even though I can see the little copper lines on the exterior, I couldn’t tell you if there’s any exposed copper on the inside of this thing. I do have a 50’ SS immersion chiller I could be using, but given the ratio of my kettle, it wouldn’t be fully submerged and there’s no doubt it would take longer to chill, exposing the wort to more oxygen in the meantime.

FERMENTATION/PACKAGING
Still working on this one. Currently I use a SS Brewtech Brew Bucket and I do a quasi-gravity feed to the keg. I say quasi because I elevate it, connect the hose to the outlet valve, connect that to the liquid out, remove the air lock and replace it with a CO2 supply hose to backfill the vapor space as it empties. This works OK, but I have a problem keeping the rubber stopper in place for the CO2. I’ve recently bought several more kegs to use as fermentation vessels. In the future the plan will be to ferment under pressure in them and use CO2 to push the finished beer to the serving keg.

I’ve been force carbing (though I did naturally carbonate one lager using the final few gravity points) even though it appears that there’s enough oxygen in the CO2 most of us use to cause some amount of oxidation. I need to figure this part out. Right now the front runner it to let fermentation ride out and then transfer to a serving keg where I can add priming sugar. Because I like to enter my beers into competitions, this would also give me a chance to bottle a few off the primed keg and let them bottle condition.

I guess I also need to mention my keg purging process. Follow this link so I don’t have to type it all out again  https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7691988&postcount=607

I’ll edit this post if I think of anything else to add that I do.

this is an impressive list already and thanks for sharing.
I may go back to trying to avoid aeration on hot side, but several recommendations - like not using copper chiller, or simmering instead of vigorous boiling - while limiting DO, could also be detrimental to beer in many other ways.

Also, I just wanted to point out that the transfer under CO2 (closed) and cold-crashing under CO2 (or in the keg) are relatively simple modifications, while they will result in huge reduction of oxygen in final product. In my (perhaps biased) opinion, paying very close attention to oxygen post-fermentation is definitely worthwhile.

 

[techbrau]

this is an impressive list already and thanks for sharing.
I may go back to trying to avoid aeration on hot side, but several recommendations - like not using copper chiller, or simmering instead of vigorous boiling - while limiting DO, could also be detrimental to beer in many other ways.

Also, I just wanted to point out that the transfer under CO2 (closed) and cold-crashing under CO2 (or in the keg) are relatively simple modifications, while they will result in huge reduction of oxygen in final product. In my (perhaps biased) opinion, paying very close attention to oxygen post-fermentation is definitely worthwhile.

Oxygen control post ferment is absolutely worthwhile.

I don't think of hot side vs cold side oxygen control as being more or less important than the other. The differences that each one causes in the beer are distinct.

The "simmer" is still a boil. I'm still boiling at 212 degrees F, and evaporating 10% of the total liquid. It just _looks_ like a simmer compared to a boil where the wort is practically leaping out of the kettle.

In my experience, boil evaporation % is the number to go by. Target 8-10% in 60 minutes. That level of evaporation is indicative of a boil that is more than sufficient to drive off DMS and give good break formation.

 

[55x11]

Oxygen control post ferment is absolutely worthwhile.

I don't think of hot side vs cold side oxygen control as being more or less important than the other. The differences that each one causes in the beer are distinct.

The "simmer" is still a boil. I'm still boiling at 212 degrees F, and evaporating 10% of the total liquid. It just _looks_ like a simmer compared to a boil where the wort is practically leaping out of the kettle.

In my experience, boil evaporation % is the number to go by. Target 8-10% in 60 minutes. That level of evaporation is indicative of a boil that is more than sufficient to drive off DMS and give good break formation.

so then what do you think of people like Dr. Bamforth, who always very strongly advocates vigorous, rolling boil, for example here:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDBKUCkg8cM[/ame]

and as long as I am citing Bamforth, here's another discussion where he talks about HSA specifically (starts around 22 min mark):
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm2t_5HrMcc[/ame]

 

[techbrau]

so then what do you think of people like Dr. Bamforth, who always very strongly advocates vigorous, rolling boil, for example here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDBKUCkg8cM

and as long as I am citing Bamforth, here's another discussion where he talks about HSA specifically (starts around 22 min mark):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm2t_5HrMcc

Kunze and Narziss have different opinions than Charlie and they are not lightweights.

I am not going to debate Lodo any more than I already have.

If you are interested in trying it, we've put a wealth of information together and posted it on germanbrewing.net. Doing the mini mash test will take no more than 90 minutes of your time and will let you taste the difference for yourself.

If you're not interested in trying it, I'll take no offense whatsoever.

 

[55x11]

Kunze and Narziss have different opinions than Charlie and they are not lightweights.

I am not going to debate Lodo any more than I already have.

If you are interested in trying it, we've put a wealth of information together and posted it on germanbrewing.net. Doing the mini mash test will take no more than 90 minutes of your time and will let you taste the difference for yourself.

If you're not interested in trying it, I'll take no offense whatsoever.

I am fairly open minded and would like to try it.
But here's the problem I have (as well as others I am sure) - I don't deliberately whip up my mash to a foamy state, I gently move mash around to avoid grist balls that are stuck together. I don't pump my wort, even for 10G batches, I just pour wort gently into the kettle. I don't pre-boil and then chill my water, I don't purge my grain with nitrogen, I do boil vigorously on purpose. In other words - I do standard procedure without deliberately or carelessly introducing oxygen but I don't go to extraordinary lengths to avoid ALL oxygen altogether either - not on the hot side. I am anal about cold side post-fermentation though, and I would claim that there is a very broad consensus that on the cold side you SHOULD always avoid oxygen (once fermentation is complete), while I would also claim there is no consensus about HSA, and if anything, the general trend nowadays seems to be that it's a myth.

Now, the problem with doing mini-mash, is that I need to taste the final product, not just smell the mash. So I need to do an entire batch of beer while purging grist and my mash tun with perhaps CO2, simmer- boiling at 98C instead of 100C, and most importantly - not using my immersion chiller made of copper (perhaps no-chill method?).

I wonder why I don't see that many side-by-side comparisons of the two beers brewed with more or less standard home-brew procedure (don't splash hot wort just for sh!t and giggles, but also don't worry too much about rate of boil or de-oxygenating your water and grains), and another one that goes to all these "extremes".

I put it on my mental list of things to try, but I don't think it will be very conclusive because of so many parameters involved.

And then there is a question whether ALL beers benefit from this approach, and differences are clearly detectable in a triangle test - or whether it's perhaps Hells and Pils, while IPAs and stouts and red ales are different enough so that the difference is so tiny that it's undetectable. Assuming it is even detectable in beers like Helles, for which we have no real proof either.

 

[TheMerkle]

Speaking of derailing posts... I'm going to interject with what is probably a stupid question, but in LODO brewing, how do you aerate the wort when it comes time to pitch yeast?

 

[techbrau]

Speaking of derailing posts... I'm going to interject with what is probably a stupid question, but in LODO brewing, how do you aerate the wort when it comes time to pitch yeast?

Like you normally would, just after you've pitched the yeast.

At fermentation temperatures, the oxidation reactions that we're trying to avoid in the hot side move significantly slower - on the order of hours to days, rather than seconds to minutes like in the mash and boil. The yeast will consume all of the oxygen that you give them within a matter of minutes.

I just use an aquarium pump with an inline hepa filter and a 2 micron stone. I dangle it at the bottom of the fermenter and run it for 3 hours.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Why not use pure O2?

 

[techbrau]

Why not use pure O2?

You can do that too.

 

[TexasWine]

I wonder why I don't see that many side-by-side comparisons of the two beers brewed with more or less standard home-brew procedure (don't splash hot wort just for sh!t and giggles, but also don't worry too much about rate of boil or de-oxygenating your water and grains), and another one that goes to all these "extremes".

I've seen pictures comparing the two. The difference is quite incredible. I'll prowl around on the German Brewing site to see if I can dig up any.

@techbrau , do you know of any threads that might have a photo or two comparing finished product?

 

[Yeastieboy]

What makes lighter wort superior to darker wort?

 

[TexasWine]

What makes lighter wort superior to darker wort?

The theory is that darker wort is indicative of oxidation. Lighter wort would indicate less or no oxidation.

 

[atcsat]

Wow, I got in over my head real quick with this post, but GOOD INFO!!! Although I'm lightyears behind Texaswine quality of equip/process, I definitely follow his "best quality of beer for least amount of work" and continually improving mottos.

I am very basic BIAB setup with simple processes, considering adding recirc so following post. I won't be going LODO any time soon, but will be leaning towards reducing O2 exposure when able. I currently sparge around 2.5 gal 170 water thru hoisted bag. So referring to OP, return line thru side of pot (just below upper mash level) instead of thru lid to avoid splash would be better? Or would my sparge nullify it? I see that TexasWine you don't sparge for that reason, correct?

 

[TexasWine]

I see that TexasWine you don't sparge for that reason, correct?

@atcsat , I originally went no sparge out of laziness. Got tired of wrestling my bag. Now it has the added benefit of reduced oxygen uptake.

 

[TheMerkle]

I have decided that I won't be "going lodo" but I'll definitely take steps to minimize oxygen uptake where I can. My question now is not a terribly important one, but I'm curious: when, exactly, do you stop being oxygen conscious and start actually being lodo? Lol