Does Nutrient Cause Yeast to Kill Flavor?

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

I know that some wine yeasts are purported to “kill the flavor” of cider. And yet, many popular cider recipes on here make use of wine yeasts. So there is something desirable about wine yeast for cider.

I know that a slow fermentation is best to retain apple flavor and to allow better overall flavor. Yeast nutrient causes “strong” yeast activity, and in IME ferments the cider more quickly.

Is that true in your experience? By that same logic, would not a yeast made more aggressive or “stronger” by nutrient, ferment even faster than it otherwise would, and thereby “kill the flavor”?

Thanks for your help.

 

[bucketnative]

The rate of fermentation is also controlled by temperature. By keeping it cooler, you can slow fermentation. I personally, like using Cote de Blancs yeast in my ciders. I also use a little yeast nutrient. I start them without nutrient, and if they start to throw sulfur smell, I will add small amount of nutrient until it goes away.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I know that a slow fermentation is best to retain apple flavor and to allow better overall flavor.

Actually, low temperature is what preserves the apple flavor. The aromatic compounds are less volatile at lower temperature. Slow fermentation is simply a result of the low temperature.

I used almost exclusively wine yeast for cider. I ferment cold. They have excellent apple flavor.

Yeast nutrient prevents the formation of hydrogen sulfide, a common off-flavor. I highly recommend it's use.
If you don't properly control temperature, nutrient causes a more vigorous fermentation which gets more warm. Control the temp and it's not a problem.

Cheers

 

[bmd2k1]

Some yeasts require more nutrients than others. I have a chart with a lot of em listed but can't find it currently...will post if I come across it.

My go to yeast is D47 - has low reqs & I never use nutrients whilst fermenting in the low to mid 60s. Leaves fabulous appley goodness to all my ciders & cold crashes nicely too.

Here in Michigan...Temps cooling down 4 fall and almost time to start a fresh batch [emoji12]

Cheers & good luck [emoji111]

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

I just realized that my only temperature control is my home’s HVAC...

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

Actually, low temperature is what preserves the apple flavor. The aromatic compounds are less volatile at lower temperature. Slow fermentation is simply a result of the low temperature.

I used almost exclusively wine yeast for cider. I ferment cold. They have excellent apple flavor.

Yeast nutrient prevents the formation of hydrogen sulfide, a common off-flavor. I highly recommend it's use.
If you don't properly control temperature, nutrient causes a more vigorous fermentation which gets more warm. Control the temp and it's not a problem.

Cheers

Ahh interesting. Thank you!

I usually just ferment in a closet on our 69F-degree home. But based on some other things I’ve seen about homebrewers wanting to control temperature with special devices, I probably need to get a “cooling blanket” or something like that, right?

 

[RPh_Guy]

There are lots of cooling options based on your budget and space. I used a refrigerator plugged into an Inkbird 308 thermostat to control temp.

You certainly don't need to ferment cool, but it definitely helps.

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

There are lots of cooling options based on your budget and space. I used a refrigerator plugged into an Inkbird 308 thermostat to control temp.

You certainly don't need to ferment cool, but it definitely helps.

Thanks! I’ve only done staggered 1-gallon batches so far, constantly tweaking in preparation for a “perfect” 5-gallon batch.

Looks like (among other things) a way of cooling to low 60’s or below will produce what I’m looking for!

 

[ten80]

I agree that cold and slow ferments preserve apple aromas. Heat and nutrients will cause yeast to ferment too vigorously and blow off aromas.

Get a cheap (or free) dorm mini-fridge and a $30 temp controller and presto, you have temp control for one carboy. I like to ferment as cold as possible, dropping temps to 38-42F once fermentation starts. Conveniently, this is the temperature of my garage from November through March or so. I don't need nutrients at these temps to avoid H2S.

 

[Maylar]

I just realized that my only temperature control is my home’s HVAC...

And mine is controlled by Mother Nature. Fortunately here in the northeast cider season comes with cooler temperatures, and last year's cold snap that rocked most of North America meant high 50's to low 60's F in my basement which was perfect. I've resigned myself to the idea that temp control is mandatory and this season I'll be spending some money to add that.

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

I agree that cold and slow ferments preserve apple aromas. Heat and nutrients will cause yeast to ferment too vigorously and blow off aromas.

Get a cheap (or free) dorm mini-fridge and a $30 temp controller and presto, you have temp control for one carboy. I like to ferment as cold as possible, dropping temps to 38-42F once fermentation starts. Conveniently, this is the temperature of my garage from November through March or so. I don't need nutrients at these temps to avoid H2S.

I always wondered how one uses a refrigerator for fermentation. Does the temp controller turn the fridge on and off to maintain temp, or is it somehow wired into the temp control of the fridge itself?

 

[madscientist451]

I know that some wine yeasts are purported to “kill the flavor” of cider.

Good cider starts with good cider making apples, or decent juice.
If you are using Sam's club apple juice made from reconstituted Chinese concentrate, there isn't going to be a whole lot of flavor left over from a 70F+ ferment no matter what yeast you use.
My 2 cents: Do whatever you have to do to get your fermentation temperature below 60F, get some decent apples/juice, and avoid using yeast that is going to throw a lot of sulfur, so then you can avoid using yeast nutrient.
I've tried a bunch of different yeasts over the years and IMO good yeasts to try are Cider House Select, WL 002 and 71b in addition to the others already mentioned in the thread. The three I've listed don't need nutrient, don't produce a sulfur taste and work well in the 50'sF.

 

[Lifer59]

I always wondered how one uses a refrigerator for fermentation. Does the temp controller turn the fridge on and off to maintain temp, or is it somehow wired into the temp control of the fridge itself?

You plug the fridge into the controller and the controller into the wall. It has a temp probe you can tape to the side or into a thermowell and the controller turns power on/off to the fridge.

 

[rhys333]

I brew beer rather than cider and I have wondered myself if yeast nutrient "kills the flavor". Specifically the yeast character, esters and phenolics. I used to get wonderfully estery beers until I started adding the recommended amount nutrient, then nothing. When I lowered the amount of nutrient, yeast character seemed to return. I can't say for sure if this is true, but nothing else has changed in my brewing setup that could affect yeast character.

 

[ten80]

I brew beer rather than cider and I have wondered myself if yeast nutrient "kills the flavor". Specifically the yeast character, esters and phenolics. I used to get wonderfully estery beers until I started adding the recommended amount nutrient, then nothing.

Many yeasts produce secondary metabolites when they are stressed or underpitched, so your observations make sense. Adding nutrients promotes healthy yeast and strong fermentations, which in general means fewer secondary metabolites produced.

I don't add nutrients to cider when using wine yeast because I want the slowest possible fermentation in order to maintain delicate fruit flavors. I find that yeast with nutrients will ferment too quickly and generate too much heat; I like to ferment slow and cold to keep fermentation speed low.

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't know if nutrients kill the flavor. I think they're just not needed in cider. I never use nutrients in my cider anymore and the cider still turns out great. Best advice I can give anyone who is convinced that nutrients are essential is to try side-by-side batches and find out for sure. Without nutrients, longer aging *might* be required to get rid of the sulfur. But rest assured, sulfur ALWAYS disappears on its own, typically within a month or two, sometimes less and sometimes more. But ALWAYS disappears all by itself with aging.

 

[S-Met]

There are a lot of bold statements made regarding what IS or ISN'T required. It's your product, you can do whatever you like.

But essentially the only thing I know for sure is that the discussion is cider and nutrients.

Are you using Whole fruit pressed, filtered or store bought.
Yeast, Spontaneous vs pitched and which strain? Starter? Rehydrated? Just sprinkled on top? Over/under pitched?

What nutrients are you adding (dap, fermax, fermaid) and how/when are you adding them: once at the beginning or 1/2 way or when you remember, scheduled, step feeding, tosna?
Temp control?
Degassing?

By all means this is not a comprehensive list of variables, but depending on your selections, you may or may not benefit from nutrients.

 

[bmd2k1]

Many yeasts produce secondary metabolites when they are stressed or underpitched, so your observations make sense. Adding nutrients promotes healthy yeast and strong fermentations, which in general means fewer secondary metabolites produced.

I don't add nutrients to cider when using wine yeast because I want the slowest possible fermentation in order to maintain delicate fruit flavors. I find that yeast with nutrients will ferment too quickly and generate too much heat; I like to ferment slow and cold to keep fermentation speed low.

2nd that! D47 w/No nutrients 4 moi [emoji111]

 

[AzOr]

I always wondered how one uses a refrigerator for fermentation. Does the temp controller turn the fridge on and off to maintain temp, or is it somehow wired into the temp control of the fridge itself?

Yup. It’s plug and play. I believe RPH mentioned the inkbird 308. That’s pretty much the standard. It’s $35 on Amazon. I’ve been using one for about 5 years and I love it.
You also have the ability to hook up a heat source. I use a cheap hair dryer and it maintains the keezer temp in the winter for ales etc.

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

You plug the fridge into the controller and the controller into the wall. It has a temp probe you can tape to the side or into a thermowell and the controller turns power on/off to the fridge.

Thanks for the info! I believe I’ll be getting one for my next batch and scouting a free fridge!

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

Good cider starts with good cider making apples, or decent juice.
If you are using Sam's club apple juice made from reconstituted Chinese concentrate, there isn't going to be a whole lot of flavor left over from a 70F+ ferment no matter what yeast you use.
My 2 cents: Do whatever you have to do to get your fermentation temperature below 60F, get some decent apples/juice, and avoid using yeast that is going to throw a lot of sulfur, so then you can avoid using yeast nutrient.
I've tried a bunch of different yeasts over the years and IMO good yeasts to try are Cider House Select, WL 002 and 71b in addition to the others already mentioned in the thread. The three I've listed don't need nutrient, don't produce a sulfur taste and work well in the 50'sF.

Great info. Thanks for sharing! My latest batch was with Hay’s Cider from Costco, Premier Classique yeast, Chestnut Tannins, Malic Acid, and FAJC (one can for 5 gallons), all in Primary. It is fermenting at whatever temperature the closet in a 70F degree home would allow it to be.

I hope it’s still good (not finished yet), but in any case, next time I will use one of your recommended yeasts and with a fridge and temp controller.

Thanks again!

 

[LittleRiver]

I always wondered how one uses a refrigerator for fermentation. Does the temp controller turn the fridge on and off to maintain temp, or is it somehow wired into the temp control of the fridge itself?

I disconnected the wires going from the internal fridge controller to the compressor, and connected a new three prong power cord to the compressor wires. So my fridge now has two power cords. The compressor cord gets plugged into my external temp controller, and the original cord gets plugged into the wall.

That way the original control panel on the fridge (a large-ish wine fridge) still works, and the switch for the internal light still works, even if my external temp controller is off.

 

[MarkKF]

You plug the fridge into the controller and the controller into the wall. It has a temp probe you can tape to the side or into a thermowell and the controller turns power on/off to the fridge.

Does that work with a freezer?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yep.

 

[AzOr]

+1. I use a chest freezer I found on CL. You can use a fridge as well but I like the flexibility of a freezer.
I recently set my inkbird at 20f and am storing about 30 1gallon jugs of frozen pressed juice. Just waiting for my fermenters to be empty.

 

[gregbathurst]

I only use my own apples and have never used nutrients, never had a problem. The main effect I see is faster ferments with apples that have more nitrogen content. With yeasts it isn't a matter of some yeasts"killing" flavour, rather some yeasts produce esters that "add" to the flavour, I don't really need that so I would prefer a more neutral yeast that just allows the apple flavour to show. I ferment fairly warm, ambient in my cellar is about 22c, I still get good cider (mostly).