Does anyone use Citra as bittering hop?

[AnOldUR]

First wort hops don't contribute flavor. It's almost all boiled off just like a traditional bittering addition.

From Brewers Friend:

First wort hopping is the method by which a hop addition is added to the boil kettle prior to lautering your grain bed. This allows the hop oils to steep in the 150F-160F wort during the lauter and then be boiled for the entire duration of the boil. There are complex reactions occurring in the hop oils during this low temperature steeping that are not well understood, but the effect is unmistakable. This process is well suited for beers where you would like to accentuate the hop aroma and flavor of your beer ...

 

[peterj]

I think people mean that the bitterness won't be harsh when you use a certain percentage of your bittering hops as FWH. Correct me if I am wrong though....

Yes, this is right. In the reply that I quoted though he stated that it would provide a smooth bitterness and some flavor. The flavor part is not true.

From Brewers Friend:
First wort hopping is the method by which a hop addition is added to the boil kettle prior to lautering your grain bed. This allows the hop oils to steep in the 150F-160F wort during the lauter and then be boiled for the entire duration of the boil. There are complex reactions occurring in the hop oils during this low temperature steeping that are not well understood, but the effect is unmistakable. This process is well suited for beers where you would like to accentuate the hop aroma and flavor of your beer ...

This goes back to a misinterpretation of the concept of FWH. I believe the concept was taken from a paper written in the 90s that described how FWH was used by some German breweries. In the paper they said that it was used to impart a smooth bittering and they believed it helped to accentuate the later flavor hop additions. The actual first wort hops don't provide any flavor themselves.

It's just common sense, why would these hop flavor compounds magically not be boiled off because you added them earlier? If anything they are more likely to be boiled off.

I know this used to come up a lot a few years ago when FWH was really gaining popularity, but I thought everyone finally understood it. I guess not. Maybe it's because of the fact that brewing calculators (at least Brewer's Friend) still incorrectly calculate the IBUs from a FWH like it's a 20 minute addition. I really wish they would correct that.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . why would these hop flavor compounds magically not be boiled off because you added them earlier?

This allows the hop oils to steep in the 150F-160F wort during the lauter and then be boiled for the entire duration of the boil. There are complex reactions occurring in the hop oils during this low temperature steeping that are not well understood, but the effect is unmistakable . . .

I believe there have been blind tests done to support this, but I don't have time to search right now.

 

[peterj]

Actually I just reread the original paper (here is a copy of it: http://www.franklinbrew.org/wp/?page_id=152).

In their experiments they compared beers with only FWH to the "reference" beer with only a traditional bittering addition. They left out all of the late kettle additions for both beers. So basically they were only testing the flavor and aroma contributions of different bittering additions.

They found that in a taste test people usually preferred the FWH beers because they had "a fine, unobstrusive hop aroma; a more harmonic beer;" and "a more uniform bitterness". So there wasn't more flavor from FWH, people just preferred it to the flavor you get from traditional bittering additions. In fact later in the article they do an analysis of the beers and find there are slightly more IBUs in the FWH beers, and in a chromatograph analysis they find less compounds that they associate with flavor and aroma in the FWH beers. They state that this is not surprising because of the longer boil times for the first wort hops.

I think the confusion comes from the experimental design. To do the experiments, they state that the 2 breweries move hops from their typical late kettle additions up to either the FWH or the bittering addition and then they forgo all late kettle additions. They then suggest that if other breweries would like to do their own experiments, "we recommend that first wort hopping be carried out with at least 30% of the total hop addition, using the later aroma additions." I think people misinterpreted that as how they should use first wort hops in their beers, and then all of us homebrewers kind of took it and ran with it without questioning where the information was coming from.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . brewing calculators (at least Brewer's Friend) still incorrectly calculate the IBUs from a FWH like it's a 20 minute addition. I really wish they would correct that.

I use the older version of Beersmith and it calculates FWH as 10% above normal utilization. I believe that IBU testing supports this, but I set boil time at 20 minutes to lower the calculated amount. To my taste the perceived bitterness is lower with FWH and that is what is important to me. The actual IBU number is useless to the guy drinking the beer. It's all about taste.

 

[peterj]

the effect is unmistakable . . .

One random person saying the "effect is unmistakable" with nothing to back up the claim is not enough to convince me of anything. That's how this whole misunderstanding started in the first place.

I use the older version of Beersmith and it calculates FWH as 10% above normal utilization. I believe that IBU testing supports this, but I set boil time at 20 minutes to lower the calculated amount. To my taste the perceived bitterness is lower with FWH and that is what is important to me. The actual IBU number is useless to the guy drinking the beer. It's all about taste.

I guess our tastes are different because I've used FWH as if they would only contribute the bitterness of a 20 minute addition and the beer was nowhere near that. To my tastes they contribute the same as a bittering addition.

 

[AnOldUR]

They found that in a taste test people usually preferred the FWH beers because they had "a fine, unobstrusive hop aroma; a more harmonic beer;" and "a more uniform bitterness". So there wasn't more flavor from FWH people just preferred it to the flavor , you get from traditional bittering additions.

I don't understand the logic of your interpretation. You're saying there wasn't more flavor, but there was a different, better flavor.

What are we arguing here?

First wort hops don't contribute flavor.

You can't have it both ways. There is a flavor contribution or there isn't. It's a better contribution or it's not.

 

[peterj]

I don't understand the logic of your interpretation. You're saying there wasn't more flavor, but there was a different, better flavor. What are we arguing here?

I'm saying FWH don't add more flavor to a beer than traditional bittering additions. You just get a different and possibly better flavor than from a traditional bittering addition. But flavor contributions from bittering additions are pretty minimal anyway, and they are almost entirely covered up by late hop additions especially in the typical American IPAs and pale ales that a lot of homebrewers use FWH for.

So I'm saying they will absolutely not contribute the same or anywhere near the amount of flavor as a 20 minute addition, and people shouldn't move their flavor hops to FWH thinking that they will give the same amount of flavor and bitterness. FWH can be used as a bittering addition that will possibly give you a smoother, more pleasant type of bitter taste. And they can be used for a better flavor contribution from the bittering addition in beers with little or no late kettle additions that rely on the bittering hop for flavor contributions.

Haha, maybe we're confused... what are you saying??

 

[peterj]

You can't have it both ways. There is a flavor contribution or there isn't. It's a better contribution or it's not.

Sorry, I guess that was an overstatement. I meant it in the same way that people say the bittering addition doesn't contribute flavor. Both contribute some flavor, but at very low amounts.

 

[Calichusetts]

FWH is by far the most overrated aspect of homebrewing. Its impact is minimal and if you really want flavor and aroma, it comes at the tail end, not the beginning of hop additions.

I do it out of convenience, not out of some preconceive notion of its effectiveness.

 

[tgmartin000]

I've used citra for bittering lots of times, and the only time I had an issue is when I pitched an infected Conan yeast. Tasted like steak. Pretty awesome, iow.

I think citra is really sensitive to harvest, though.

 

[grittanomyces]

That's what I said!!!!

I got into an argument with a few guys at work who all insisted its a bittering hop. And in all the recipes I've seen with Citra, it seems more heavily favored as a flavor or aroma addition.

Thank you for validating my position. And consider myself subscribed to this thread. I want to see what everyone has to say on this.

Well, of course it is more commonly featured as a flavor and aroma hop, as it has awesome flavor and aroma, but that has nothing to do with whether it can be used as a clean bittering hop. When it can do both, it is a dual-purpose hop, and I've seen citra and many other common flavoring hops described as such.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, clean bittering hops are thought by many to be ones that produce low levels of cohomulone, which is said to be responsible for imparting an unpleasant bitterness.

However, even though Citra has been described as a low cohomulone clean-bittering hop, I've been brewing several beers lately that are bittered with at least some citra (mostly because I have plenty left over, as I've found that a little bit of citra flavoring goes a long way and can dominate the hop profile, so I use less later to bring out the less-dominant hops), and I've finally determined that Citra may be the culprit for a pretty harsh lingering bitterness in these beers.

If you want high AA but a very clean bitterness, I don't see how it can get much better than magnum.