Do you use Use metabisulphite and/or yeast nutrients in your cider?

[hereistay]

Hi there!
I'm from Italy and it's my first time making cider.
I have some doubts.
I'm going to use a fruit press and a crusher that I use to make grape wine.
I'm reading a book about cider making and I read that it is possible to use potassium metabisulphite just like we do whit wine.
The book says to put it and wait 24h to inoculate the yeast.
According to it, it is possible to add yeast nutrients also.
So what about you?
Do you use these products?

 

[hereistay]

Another simple question, do you wash your apples with simple water or do you use some products?

 

[dmtaylor]

Making cider is basically identical to making wine. Most people do use sulphite and nutrients. But I don't. I haven't found either of those things necessary at all and I still make what I think is the best homemade cider around here (and I have tasted many). I like to stay chemical-free and just don't think that stuff is needed. But I do incorporate heat pasteurization of the raw juice at 160 F for 15 minutes. There is no significant loss of volatiles or change in flavors, contrary to what some will claim.

When washing the apples, I like to rinse them in a sulphite solution. But I don't think that is necessary either if pasteurizing or adding sulphite later. Plain water should work fine.

Enjoy.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Same as wine...

If your juice is nutrient-deficient and you want to ferment quickly, you add nutrient to avoid yeast stress.

If you don't want any wild character in your unpasteurized juice, you add sulfite after pressing.

If you want it to age well, you add sulfite after fermentation, to prevent oxidation.

Sulfite is used in combination with sorbic acid to stabilize before sweetening.
Sulfite by itself will prevent [bacterial] MLF.

 

[hereistay]

And what about clarification of the must?
Do you use enzymes or do you chill the must before inoculating the yeast?

 

[dmtaylor]

And what about clarification of the must?
Do you use enzymes or do you chill the must before inoculating the yeast?

Gelatin works miracles. Add at end of fermentation.

 

[Maylar]

My process uses potassium metabisulfite as soon as I get the juice from the press. I add pectic enzyme about 12 hrs later and let the raw cider clear for a day. Rack off the pectin mud into a fresh carboy and pitch my rehydrated yeast at room temp. When the lag phase is done (must is bubbling) I'll add some nutrient, but just once.

I keg my ciders after aging for a few months and sweeten with natural sugars (FAJC, honey, whatever) with 50 ppm sulfite and potassium sorbate.

 

[hereistay]

Thank you very much for your replies.
By considering that I want to make a sparkling cider just like beer by making a priming...how many days/months have I to wait before bottling?

 

[hereistay]

How much potassium metabisulphite and yeast nutrients do you use?

 

[Maylar]

How much potassium metabisulphite and yeast nutrients do you use?

50 PPM (1/4 TSP for 5-6 gallons) of K-Meta and usually 1 TSP per gallon of nutrient, whatever it says on the package for wine.
If you're going to bottle carbonate then skip the sorbate.

I do cider in the winter, with temps in the 50's. Usually takes a couple weeks to get down to 1.008 or so, and I'll rack to a clean carboy and let it clear before bottling or kegging. With the pectic enzyme it's totally clear within 2 months or less.

 

[hereistay]

Thank you Maylar.
So you don't control the temperature during fermentation?
I would like to wait lower temperatures but the problem is that the must during fermentation reaches higher temperatures.
I use an handmade system to let the must be cooled at about 60°F/16°C.
To have 50°F I should wait January.

 

[hereistay]

So I read the data sheets of my products and they say:

Metabisulphite: 10-30 grams/hl (0,00083334735-0,0025000421 lbs/gallon) before inoculation
Enzyme: 2-4ml/hl at 15-20°C (59-68°F)
Nutrients: 40-100grams/hl (0,002535316-0,008333474 lbs/gallon).
By considering that the apples I'm going to use are good I'll put the minimal quantity of metabisulphite just after pressing .
After 12-24 hours I'm going to introduce the pectolitic enzyme and let the must chill at about 15°C/59°F.
The day after I'm gonna siphon and inoculate the yeast previously started and let it ferment at about 18°C (64°F).

 

[hereistay]

50 PPM (1/4 TSP for 5-6 gallons) of K-Meta and usually 1 TSP per gallon of nutrient, whatever it says on the package for wine.
If you're going to bottle carbonate then skip the sorbate.

I do cider in the winter, with temps in the 50's. Usually takes a couple weeks to get down to 1.008 or so, and I'll rack to a clean carboy and let it clear before bottling or kegging. With the pectic enzyme it's totally clear within 2 months or less.

According to my equivalence, 50PPM should be about 0,09 grams/liter so the minimum quantity of 0,1 grams/liter should be ok.

 

[hereistay]

Another stupid question...I know that the weight/liquid ratio is about at 50% but, how many dregs do you usually throw away?
By considering that I should press about 50kg and should have about 25 liters/6,6 gallons, at the end of the whole process, before bottling, how many liters/gallons will I have?

And last question, do you remove the core with seeds or do you use the whole apple?

 

[dmtaylor]

And last question, do you remove the core with seeds or do you use the whole apple?

Use the entire apple.

 

[hereistay]

Gelatin works miracles. Add at end of fermentation.

I have gelatin in grains.
I will use also pectine before fermentation.
Don't know if is useful for me to use also gelatin after fermentation.
I know that it makes its work with a lot of days .

 

[Maylar]

Dave uses gelatin, I use pectic enzyme. Adding the enzyme before ferment, or even when pitching the yeast, always clears my ciders perfectly.

I don't have the ability to control fermentation temperature other than having a cool basement that gets down into the 50's F in the winter months. I start my ciders at the end of October or early November. If you can keep temperature toward the low end of the yeast's range you will get a better product even if it takes a few months to finish. Farmhouse ciders are started in November when the late season apples fall and bottled when the apple trees are blossoming in the spring.

About pitching yeast however, you should rehydrate dry yeast per the package instructions and pitch at room temperature. Then when fermentation is under way you can drop the temperature down.

 

[hereistay]

I'm thinking about using a wine product in tsbs called Tannisol.
By using a tab/hl it introduces about 50ppm (0.9 grams) of potassium metabisulphite, 0.3 grams of citric acid and 0.2 grams of tannin.
What do u think about it?

To make carbonation, I read that 2.5 volumes of co2 are ok.
It should correspond to about 6,6 grams/liter and develop 1,65 atm.

 

[Maylar]

Never heard of Tannisol. You can get potassium metabisulfite in tablet form called Campden tablets. One crushed tablet adds 50 ppm per imperial gallon.
2.5 volumes is where I carbonate my ciders.

 

[hereistay]

I'm reading that citric acid is not good to add to cider.
It should be better to add malic acid.
Btw I think I'll add only metabisulphite before inoculation.
I'll try to find acid apples

 

[dmtaylor]

And here I try to reduce the acid in my ciders using low-acid apples and malolactic bacteria. To each his own!

 

[hereistay]

Never heard of Tannisol. You can get potassium metabisulfite in tablet form called Campden tablets. One crushed tablet adds 50 ppm per imperial gallon.
2.5 volumes is where I carbonate my ciders.

But, is there an equivalence between co2 volumes and Atmosphere (pressure ) ?

 

[Maylar]

But, is there an equivalence between co2 volumes and Atmosphere (pressure ) ?

Yes. And temperature:

https://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table/

 

[madscientist451]

I'm reading that citric acid is not good to add to cider.
It should be better to add malic acid.
Btw I think I'll add only metabisulphite before inoculation.
I'll try to find acid apples

Unless you have sophisticated test equipment, its probably best to add as little as possible to your cider. The blend of apples used is the best way to influence the flavor. The degree of ripeness also has an effect on the flavor. Try to get tree ripened fruit if you can find it. Most tree fruit is picked before it is ripe, so it doesn't get damaged in shipping.
Most apple varieties you buy at the store are somewhat acidic. Cider apples, if you can get any, can be high or low acid.
What varieties of apples can you get in Italy?
I know Angry Orchard uses apples/juice from Italy in their product, I always wondered what varieties they are using.

 

[Maylar]

I've wondered about that too. I've read that the apple orchards in Northern Italy are the oldest known on earth.

 

[hereistay]

In northern Italy there are mainly commercial cultivars don't really know if they have other local cultivars but they grow dessert apples mainly.