Do you REALLY save any money by brewing your own beer?

[olllllo]

Why is it that we must think of this hobby in these terms? It's really rediculous when you compare it to other hobbies you have. It's kind of like saying I spent $1200 in "labor" on a recent 3-day motorcycle trip I took (or ski trip, cruise, etc.)

Gas cost me a fortune and I ate through 1/2 a set of tires, paid for 2 nights in a hotel, bought some grub, and HAD to buy some good beer to relax with in the evening.

I would never try to add in $ for my time, and even though my MC gets 40+ mpg, I'm not trying to calculate how much $$ I saved (spent) based on the distance we rode. We had fun. What else is there to say?

That's really an entirely different equation.
To have that be an accurate analogy, it would have to be in terms of comparing a purchased 3-day motorcycle trip experience vs your self conceived, provide your own equipment 3-day motorcycle trip.

 

[Bobby_M]

I totally agree with you sparky. The answer to the thread's subject is just plain "no", but I got into the detailed analysis of it since it was brought up. I for one don't care what it costs as I'll be brewing clean through the hop "shortage", grain price increases, and fuel costs. However, If I'm asked to look at it in a literal, logical manner, I have to be the highly technical pain in the ass know-it-all that my wife claims I am.

 

[bradsul]

Why is it that we must think of this hobby in these terms? It's really rediculous when you compare it to other hobbies you have. It's kind of like saying I spent $1200 in "labor" on a recent 3-day motorcycle trip I took (or ski trip, cruise, etc.)...

Well said. I'd hate to total up the many thousands I've got invested in my flyfishing equipment and fishing excursions only to have someone point out I can walk to the market down the street and buy trout for $X/lbs. Where's the fun in that?!

I could buy lots of trout for the cost of the GAS to my local river, let alone the time and equipment used to catch the fish.

 

[mr x]

For me, the answer to the question is absolutely yes.

 

[kinison_fan]

Around here, a good commercial beer is 30-35 a case (i.e. Victory), and 18-20 for regular everyday beer (Yuengling).
A good/very good extract batch is probably 40-50.
So 2 cases, 40-50 homebrew vs. 60-70 good commercial vs 40 everyday commercial.
So,
good homebrew vs everyday commercial? = no price savings
good homebrew vs good commercial? = savings start here.
good all grain homebrew vs good commercial? = more savings.

Now this year, I'm in the hole with equipment costs (kegging set up), but pulling a draft beer at home? = PRICELESS.

I'm also planning a being ready for all grain after new year's.
I've got enough on hand for three more extract batches, then I'll make the jump.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, modified response is that in the U.S., you CAN buy beer for less than it would cost to make the equivelent at home (all things considered) even though Most, if not ALL homebrewers' enjoyment of the process offsets the additional cost. In Canada, the price of commercial beer is so high that the homebrewer might save money (all things considered). I'd be interested in seeing what it would cost you if you paid yourself your day job's wages for the time a batch took but then I already know that someone is going to tell me that I shouldn't factor labor into a hobby. Gosh.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Sorry for the confusion but I don't know how many times I have to say that I know that labor doesn't factor in when you ask yourself whether or not you should take on a hobby. The problem is, that's NOT the question the OP asked. If it had been, "is homebrewing worth the effort?" or "does homebrewing cost a lot of money?" you could argue that yes it's worth it and that it doesn't cost a lot of money.

The question was, "do you really save any money by brewing your own beer?" and in my mind that is a buy vs. make question for which the answer should include all costs both obvious and somewhat hidden.

None of use are brewing for the cost savings (unless you're bad at math).

Cost savings is absolutely a big part of why I brew and I'm pretty good at math. The main reason is I love making my own, personal, creative, GOOD brews... but, I wouldn't brew if I wasn't saving money on how much I would spend on beer every year. Even if I just matched it, I'd still brew, but not as much as I am now.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

That's really an entirely different equation.
To have that be an accurate analogy, it would have to be in terms of comparing a purchased 3-day motorcycle trip experience vs your self conceived, provide your own equipment 3-day motorcycle trip.

Good point. Never been good with those analogies. I only scored a 3 on my SAT.

Well said. I'd hate to total up the many thousands I've got invested in my flyfishing equipment and fishing excursions only to have someone point out I can walk to the market down the street and buy trout for $X/lbs. Where's the fun in that?!

I could buy lots of trout for the cost of the GAS to my local river, let alone the time and equipment used to catch the fish.

This is a much better analogy. (I think)

 

[Bobby_M]

Good point. Never been good with those analogies. I only scored a 3 on my SAT.



This is a much better analogy. (I think)

The question for which the fishing analogy should be envoked is something like "does fishing really save you money?". The answer is no, but hobbies are generally not business ventures either.

 

[mr x]

I'd be interested in seeing what it would cost you if you paid yourself your day job's wages for the time a batch took but then I already know that someone is going to tell me that I shouldn't factor labor into a hobby. Gosh.

I don't look it as having labor costs unless I should be working. On my days off, I'm not working so it's a free day. If I could be working at a job where I get paid instead of brewing (or cleaning the house, or washing the car, etc), then I'd have to factor in the labour cost.

 

[Bobby_M]

Cost savings is absolutely a big part of why I brew and I'm pretty good at math. The main reason is I love making my own, personal, creative, GOOD brews... but, I wouldn't brew if I wasn't saving money on how much I would spend on beer every year. Even if I just matched it, I'd still brew, but not as much as I am now.

I'm doing it no matter what. Once you get there, now you start looking for ways to do it cheaper while you're at it. That's where bulk ingredients and efficiencies of scale come in, etc. I often throw around batch cost numbers that I know damn well are innaccurately low because I tend to justify my obsession like some kind of crack addict.

The one variable that is probably highly ignored in this discussion is what your time is worth (remember if you're taking all things into account). A reasonable way to look at it is, if you didn't like beer and had absolutely no interest in brewing, what's the minimum wage you'd take to brew a batch. I wouldn't touch any part time job for less than $25/hr.

 

[toadyus]

Yup the Government In Canada taxes the hell out of beer.....$20/case when you can get a case in the USA for $10 bux...it's ridicules

 

[mr x]

I think a better way to look at the situation is:

'What would I be doing today if I wasn't brewing'?

I was supposed to be brewing today, but I busted a coupling and that got put off. So what did I do - went out to Costco and spent $100 on pickled beets and chocolate milk. ANd other stuff I basically didn't need. Would I have bought it anyway, who knows. Probably not half that bill.

So maybe brewing would have saved me money.lol

As far as I am concerned, unless you would, could, and should be getting paid by somebody for doing labour instead of brewing, then you have no loss of wages, so you have no labour costs.

 

[olllllo]

The one variable that is probably highly ignored in this discussion is what your time is worth (remember if you're taking all things into account). A reasonable way to look at it is, if you didn't like beer and had absolutely no interest in brewing, what's the minimum wage you'd take to brew a batch. I wouldn't touch any part time job for less than $25/hr.

That's really the correct way to quantify it.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I'm doing it no matter what. Once you get there, now you start looking for ways to do it cheaper while you're at it. That's where bulk ingredients and efficiencies of scale come in, etc. I often throw around batch cost numbers that I know damn well are innaccurately low because I tend to justify my obsession like some kind of crack addict.

The one variable that is probably highly ignored in this discussion is what your time is worth (remember if you're taking all things into account). A reasonable way to look at it is, if you didn't like beer and had absolutely no interest in brewing, what's the minimum wage you'd take to brew a batch. I wouldn't touch any part time job for less than $25/hr.

I hear ya on that, but I love brewing as much as fishing, playing my guitar, watching movies, etc: That is why I would never calculate my labor cost amount in. If I didn't like brewing, but just did it for the beer, than ya.. I'd definitely calculate in labor costs. But I don't have money to spend on hobbies right now. My wife and I are saving for a house and I"m trying to pay off my last 4 grand in student loans from college. I mean I do some money for hobbies, but drinking good beer is as much a hobby as brewing is. Since I can satisfy that hobby and do another hobby at the same time... for a cheaper price than doing just that hobby (drinking) alone, then it's definitely a win-win money-wise. I buy grain and hops in bulk, I use tap water, I wash my yeast over and over again, I use my houses ambient temp for ferment control and I have all the equipment I want/need for quite some time.

 

[kinison_fan]

I don't look it as having labor costs unless I should be working. On my days off, I'm not working so it's a free day. If I could be working at a job where I get paid instead of brewing (or cleaning the house, or washing the car, etc), then I'd have to factor in the labour cost.

On a similar reasoning, if I work on my car for example I DO consider the cost of labor as my savings.
Last year my truck needed brakes all around for inspection estimate was $500 or $600. I took the truck home, bought the brakes for around $100, spent sometime on a Saturday doing the job, and $20 for the reinspection. Sure, it took me a couple of hours to do, but in the end, I "saved" over $400 coming out of my pocket.

For hobbies and such I DON'T consider the labor costs. I've done similar auto work for friends for nothing, but they have bought me a case of beer to say thanks. Is my time (couple of hours) worth more than a case of beer? Sure, but its my FREE time to use as I like-whether its helping a friend, making beer, or holding the couch down watching a game on TV.

 

[EdWort]

If I sold all my gadgets I bought in the last year and kept 1 keggle, 1 burner, 2 buckets, and used all my German bottles, then yes.

Otherwise my beers cost me 10 bucks each. But they sure are tasty and the appreciation upon pulling a pint is priceless.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

... but, I wouldn't brew if I wasn't saving money on how much I would spend on beer every year. Even if I just matched it, I'd still brew, but not as much as I am now.

I can state, with absolute certainty, that I have spent more on brewing expenses in the past year that I have spent on beer during the entire previous decade! If I was to factor my time and labor into the equation, it would be more than my previous 43 years of life. (Admittedly, I didn't spend much during the first 15 years.)

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I can state, with absolute certainty, that I have spent more on brewing expenses in the past year that I have spent on beer during the entire previous decade! If I was to factor my time and labor into the equation, it would be more than my previous 43 years of life. (Admittedly, I didn't spend much during the first 15 years.)

That's insane, rough estimate of what you've spent? Do you buy in bulk? Extract or AG? Do you have a bunch of fancy equipment? Did you drink a lot in the past decade (every day)?

 

[Beerthoven]

The one variable that is probably highly ignored in this discussion is what your time is worth (remember if you're taking all things into account). A reasonable way to look at it is, if you didn't like beer and had absolutely no interest in brewing, what's the minimum wage you'd take to brew a batch. I wouldn't touch any part time job for less than $25/hr.

Bobby's right. The idea here is opportunity cost. By taking the time to brew beer you are giving up the opportunity to do something else. How much was that other thing worth to you? That is the true cost of your brewing time.

Of course, that leads to discussions like "Well, if I weren't brewing beer I'd be spending time with my kids." How much is that worth? Equally hard to say.

So most economists use your wages as a measure of your value of time. How much do you make an hour at your job? That is a reasonable estimate of the cost to you of your time spent brewing.

 

[Bobby_M]

There are two arguements (friendly debates) going on here and I'd like to agree on one before we get on tilt.

1. Does brewing save money (absolute)?
2. Is brewing worth it (whether or not it is a positive or negative economy to the homebrewer).

The answer to #1 is no unless you work for free (or very cheap). The answer to #2 is a resounding yes for everyone in the discussion and arguable anyone who is currently brewing. I'd just ask that everyone answering "YES" to #1 stop for a second and realize you're really answering question #2.

Let's try an example:
#1. Does brewing save money (absolute)?
Answer: Yes. It's a hobby and I don't count my labor costs.
Counter: If you're asking an economic question, you don't ignore economic factors.

#2. Is brewing worth it.
Answer: Yes. Period.


This really isn't an issue of false economy because we've already talked about how you can't quantify the joy you get out of a hobby in $$$$ but someone came in here and asked a pointed question about the absolute cost of brewing.

Fixing your car is a totally different thing unless you really enjoy wrenching as a hobby. You figure the mechanic is going to charge a labor rate that exceeds your own so as long as you don't take twice as long to do it, you come out ahead.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

OK, I see what you are saying Bobby, I was translating the question into my own situation which would be question #3:

I love the brewing process. Am I saving money by doing this hobby or should I just buy (quality) beer from the store?

 

[Jo3sh]

As far as just the cost of beer, you may be right. I haven't calculated it all out, but by feeling is that I'm ahead, but I may just be breaking even.

I typically buy the ingredients for 10 gallons of normal-strength all-grain beer for about $40 - 50 (this will go up as hop and malt prices rise, but so will commercial beer). Figure in about $10 a batch for propane, electricity, and other consumables, and I make beer for about $60 for the equivalent of 5 to 5.5 cases. Call it $12 a case. Maybe $15 a case when you figure in equipment? That's better than the prices of Sam Adams at Costco, and I like the beer better.

On top of that, though, I have a great hobby, a circle of good friends to pursue it with, and beer which is unique in the world. These things are priceless.

I think it *is* possible to brew inexpensively, but that has to be your focus. Basic ingredients like prehopped extract and corn sugar will make a beer similar to commercial lager or light ale pretty cheaply.

Instead, homebrewing culture, at least here in the US, seems to be focused on enjoyment of the process, producing interesting beer, stretching boundaries, etc. - all of which can be done for the same price as buying commercial beer.

 

[TexLaw]

Bobby, I know you are trying to illustrate a point and encourage some interesting discussion, but adding wages to the cost of brewing just doesn't worh with a hobby. If you are running a brewery, you have to do it, but not otherwise.

If you add in wages, then my TV really costs something like $400,000.00, due to the hours I watch it. As everyone has pointed out (Bobby, included), time or opportunity cost just doesn't factor into hobbies.

No matter how you slice it, though, brewing is a lot cheaper than therapy.


TL

 

[mr x]

If you are going to try to factor in your labour costs, you have to do it right. So say you consider your time to be worth $25/hour. You spend 6 hours brewing on your day off. So, did your brew just cost you $150 in labour alone? Where was that money going to come from? It can't be considered a loss/cost unless somebody was going to pay you $150 during the time you were brewing. Who was going to do that?

 

[cd2448]

@mr x

I'm with you dude. You can't count labor cost unless it was money lost doing something else. The OP asked if *he* was saving money, not if his beer costs less to make than a brewery.

 

[olllllo]

Bobby is applying sound economic practice for rational decision making. Nothing wrong with it.

We've already acknowledged that we think alot with our guts in this hobby. So much so that we ignore such a sterile analysis.

 

[mr x]

Bobby is applying sound economic practice for rational decision making. Nothing wrong with it.

We've already acknowledged that we think alot with our guts in this hobby. So much so that we ignore such a sterile analysis.

Look at my analysis. Where do you think that is wrong? Where did the money go/come from?

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Right, x has a very logical analysis as well, how is that "ignoring" a sterile analysis. It's just a solid rebutal in this debate.

 

[the_bird]

Bobby is applying sound economic practice for rational decision making. Nothing wrong with it.

We've already acknowledged that we think alot with our guts in this hobby. So much so that we ignore such a sterile analysis.

There's a theoretical argument for Bobby's POV, in that when I brew, I could be doing work on the house that instead I might pay someone else to do (practically speaking, it just doesn't get done). No need to fight about it, though.

I guess the better way to do the equation, as it is, is to solve for the value of your labor. How much would two cases of beer - of the same quality that you are producing - cost you? $60? Subtract off the cost of the ingredients, the cost of the propane, the other incidentals like sanitizer. Then, "depreciate" your fixed investments (burners, keggles, etc., basically, your "overhead") over a reasonable time period, and calculate the total cost of the batch. Let's say that's $40 total.

The hobby's then "saving" you $20 for your efforts; is it worth it for your time?

Answering the same question, just in a backwards manner that may make some more sense.

 

[Adolphus79]

I did the math, and on a bottle per bottle basis I do save money brewing my own stuff, but those saving are easily offset by equipment purchases...

 

[BuffaloSabresBrewer]

to save you the story...for now...i have to go to work more to come later...without factoring labor, because its too F'in fun to call it labor, im breaking even with my first AG batch so a shorter answer is yes i am saving money

 

[the_bird]

Why are we arguing about this, anyway?

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Why are we arguing about this, anyway?

debating, bird, debating

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Why are we arguing about this, anyway?

I agree. I think it's the EAC inside each of us that has to find an outlet, no matter how retarded the issue.

 

[mr x]

There are different opinions on the matter of labour cost. I look at in a classic market value evaluation.

For instance, I constantly argue with a good friend on the value of his house. He insists it is worth a pretty high value. I tell him the truth. It is worth exactly what somebody is willing to pay for it. You don't set the value, the market does. The same as your time. It's only worth what somebody is willing to give you, not any value you set. You may think you are worth $40/hour, but if nobody is willing to pay that, then are you really 'worth' it? Myself, I don't think so.

So if on your day off, when nobody is willing to pay you any money (or you don't have work to do that you could pay somebody else for), what is your time worth? I say $0.

 

[the_bird]

So if on your day off, when nobody is willing to pay you any money (or you don't have work to do that you could pay somebody else for), what is your time worth? I say $0.

Don't have any work to do?

C'mon, let's keep this discussion in the realm of reality!

 

[mr x]

Paid work (or work you would pay for) is what I meant.

 

[the_bird]

Paid work (or work you would pay for) is what I meant.

I know exactly what you meant!

(thinking of the taping and sanding of the new drywal in the second bedroom, the electrical outlets that need replacing, the wainscoating that needs to be installed, the closets that need new shelves, the painting that needs to be done.......... I can go on!)

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Bobby, I know you are trying to illustrate a point and encourage some interesting discussion, but adding wages to the cost of brewing just doesn't worh with a hobby. If you are running a brewery, you have to do it, but not otherwise.

In the context of a hobby, time and wages don't enter into it. As soon as somebody starts considering brewing as a means of saving money, time and effort have to be considered before the comparison is legitimate. It's a different paradigm.

I've spent thousands this year on ingredients and equipment...strictly as a hobby! I've built a nice kegerator, but most of my gear is simple and I can only imagine what the guys with fancy sculptures and conicals must pay. Never in my life have I spent a thousand on commercial beer in a year. (Of course in you count wine, scotch, grappa, bourbon, sake, vodka, etc....then I'd be getting into the thousands!) If efficiently obtaining beer was my goal, I could put in another hour or two of overtime each week and buy more beer than I could drink.