Grimsawyer
Well-Known Member
Go Man Go!!!
DIY Thermoelectric Temperature Control
- Thread starter Yuri_Rage
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Todd
Well-Known Member
Looks good.
seanhagerty
Well-Known Member
Thats great for a full keg, what happens when the level gets below the cooling rod on the inside of the keg?
OP
OP
The rod is at the four gallon point. It's for fermenting, not serving. I guess if you made three gallon batches, it wouldn't work so well.seanhagerty said:
This is an awesome thread. I recently was inspired by the heated/cooled fermentors from B3, and I've considered adding a pelt to the side of my conical. I'm curious to see how this all shakes out.
I have one of those cigarette lighter coolers in my vehicle (dorm fridge size), and I may just have to scavenge some parts.
I have one of those cigarette lighter coolers in my vehicle (dorm fridge size), and I may just have to scavenge some parts.
OP
OP
Take 3:
I've insulated the keg with several layers of bubble wrap and hooked up a 12A power supply. There should be no shortage of power now, and the keg is at least somewhat insulated.
Results from the last trial weren't very encouraging. Even with the improved design, I could only maintain 4 to 5 degrees below ambient.
I have it running again, and it's already dropped 1 degree in 10 minutes. I hope it continues that way...
I've insulated the keg with several layers of bubble wrap and hooked up a 12A power supply. There should be no shortage of power now, and the keg is at least somewhat insulated.
Results from the last trial weren't very encouraging. Even with the improved design, I could only maintain 4 to 5 degrees below ambient.
I have it running again, and it's already dropped 1 degree in 10 minutes. I hope it continues that way...
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Yuri, your experiments are leading me to want to hear from some people who own a morebeer.com conical cooled with their TEC's. Yours looks just as professional altough not a conical, and should be similar in cooling capacity. From what I have seen so far a wet towel and a fan sound better than TEC's. I can't wait to hear more, it just is kinda turning me off of the TEC idea now. You are deffinitley the man when it comes to projects, , thanks for the good solid info.
, thanks for the good solid info.Looks like this guy got something similar to work with a fish tank cooler, http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=50031.
OP
OP
That's the site/post that started this whole idea...and the reason why I'm not giving up. Results are still discouraging. I'm almost out of ideas, but I'm not throwing in the towel!!!enfox said:
these things are amazing.. I build cigar humidors and I use peltiers to cool the boxes in hot climates. The catch is that you need a decent circuit to run them and you HAVE to have very efficient ways of removing the heat and cold from either sides. I'm curently building a cigar cabinet that uses 10 peltiers in all (5 under each heatsink). Again AMAZING lil buggers!!! Ill post some pics when the cabinets wired up.
Cheers
Cheers
Jester4176
Well-Known Member
With the Ice Probe, couldn't you mount it through a tub of some sort that holds water, and the carboy is submerged in? Just my thinking, but rather than cut up a keg, and weld stuff together. Instead, you could use a large rubbermaid tub, insulate it, and cut a hole in the lid for the carboy to stick out of. If you used ice bottles to initially drop the temperature of the carboy, the probe should be able to maintain lower temps fairly decently. Am I wrong in thinking this?
Jester4176
Well-Known Member
mageac said:
My point exactly. Not all of possess the tools that would allow us to make ANYTHING, nor do we possess the skills to do so. I'm just thinking of alternatives for us...laymen type folks.
I made a fermenter using a corny like yuri is doing, however I bought the iceprobe instead of making my own. I just bottled my first batch using it and I was able to keep it at 65 C with not much trouble at all (keg was insulated however). My next project is to build a TEC "air conditioner" for a fermentation cabinet I built.
I'm thinking about doing something like this so I an lager, after reading this thread. There are lots of peltier cooler's on ebay anywhere from 20-400+ watts. I was thinking putting a carboy/plastic bucket in a tub of water surrounding it and having say 2-3 coolers @ 70ish watts with fans and maybe a block of Al or copper if I run across some for free, epoxy/thermal grease onto the chip with the heatsink and fan on the other side above the water. Then insulate the tub/bucket thing. I was really wondering if something like this can get the temps down in the lagering range. Maybe replace the Al/Cu blocks that go in the water with heatsinks of one of the materials.
Lol, just curious if there have been anymore upgrades in design to Yuri's cooling project. Man is that guy mechanically inclined.
OP
OP
Believe it or not, I've actually been busy BREWING rather than creating brew gadgets. Usually it's the other way around. So far, no more luck with the self-cooling fermenter. I REFUSE to give up on it, though! More to follow, I'm sure!
Yuri, any links to some research I could do on figuring out mathematically what it is going to take to do this? I'd like to figure this out on paper before I chooses to dive into it and I'm not all that familiar with the peltier devices (energy needed to cool X volume) nor on surface area vs heat disipation, efficiency of the devices, etc.
OP
OP
I found some wattage/BTU calcs for heating and cooling a given volume, but I don't have the link handy.z987k said:
It seems to me that I have plenty of power available, but I'm not transferring heat effectively at all. I'm tempted to buy one of those IceProbe gadgets just to reverse engineer it. I thought I was going to get two 7 gallon cooled fermenters for the price of a single IceProbe, but at this point, I've got two ruined cornies and a bunch of aluminum shavings to show for my work. I'm going to make this work, and I'll share the secret(s) when I figure it out!
MrFebtober
Well-Known Member
Yuri_Rage said:
Yuri, great stuff and you seem to really be on the right track. I used to fiddle with overclocking PCs and have worked with thermal conduction a bit, so I have thought of a couple things for you to check/consider:
1. Thermal grease improves heat transfer, but I've always read (on overclocker-type websites) that it is most effective when used in as thin of a layer as possible and used between two polished surfaces, so that the majority of the transfer is metal to metal, while the grease fills in the inevitable flaws in each surface.
2. Quality thermal grease is (apparently) important. I've personally observed better heat transfer using Arctic Silver instead of the generic white pastey stuff. It's a bit pricey, I suppose, but I've used the same tube for dozens of applications over the years and have probably used less than half of it.
3. How hot does your new, large heat sink get? If it's still practically too hot to touch for very long, then the system would would definitely benefit from an additional fan. You could set them up in a push-pull configuration with one at each end of the sink and moving through the fins length-wise (from bottom to top according to your earlier setup pictures) Or you could go with a higher CFM fan.
I agree that you aren't sunk yet and there's more cooling to be found. It'll just be a journey of tweaking and experimenting. Keep it coming!
MrFebtober
Well-Known Member
enfox said:
Three things to consider (i'm not usually a list-writer, honestly!):
- Which one is heavier?
- Which looks to have more surface area (how many fins per inch, etc.)?
- which can be most practically fan cooled?
Try this tool to see what answer you come up with (you'll need to count the number of fins)
BTW, Yuri, they also have a peltier calculator tool here that you could play around with, though it looks like it would be much more useful it you could put in the results and calculate the thermal resistances instead.
OP
OP
Nothing to add...yet...been very busy lately!
Philip1993
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Yuri,
Great project and lots of food for thought. I may have to tinker with this one a bit. That said, here's a couple of thoughts.
- Heat transfer is maximum when the delta T is highest. Hence, your cooler rod is most efficient at the top of the liquid column. This will also cause some convective currents as the cooler fluid drops down the column.
- Without a circulation pump, the liquid around the rod will form an envelope that is closer to the rod temp than the ambient fluid. This will decrease the delta T and reduce the efficiency tremendously. I suggest a small pump that draws from the outlet and returns to the inlet.
- Even the temperature gradient through the rod will decrease the effectiveness of the heat transfer from rod to peltier device. For optimum results, the cold face of the peltier should be presented with the ambient fluid temp. This means (almost) wort to peltier contact.
All that said, I would recommend you try the following:
- Make an aluminum chiller block of substantial mass. I haven't looked up the temp coefficient of aluminum, but I'd consider 1kg a good starting point.
- create a 1/4" bore that snakes through the block creating as much tubing (i.e. surface area) as possible. Since I lack machine tools, I would probably make a 2" coil of copper and cast it into a block of Aluminum.
- Attach the peltier cold side to the block. Make an insulating plate with a hole the side of the peltier. The insulator goes between the chiller block and the heat sink to prevent thermal xfer.
- Use a heat sink with a ton of surface area, sink grease, and killer fan. Your peltiers maximum cooling is X degrees below the hot side temp. As such, the hotter the hot side is, the warmer the cold side is. Ideally, you would submerse the hot side in a cooler of ice water. Realistically, you want the heat sink surface as near ambient air temp as possible for maximum performance.
- Plumb the in and out lock valves to the chiller block with appropriate tubing and a small pump.
- Insulate the corny. Heat gain from the surface of an SS tube is huge. Get some aluminized thermal bubble wrap, and use a wrap about 2" thick. Alternately, drop the corny into a cardboard concrete form and fill the gap with liquid foam. If you go this route, buy 2 part mix-n-use foam as the spray can stuff requires air and does not harden throughout in large volumes.
Just my $0.02,
Philip
Great project and lots of food for thought. I may have to tinker with this one a bit. That said, here's a couple of thoughts.
- Heat transfer is maximum when the delta T is highest. Hence, your cooler rod is most efficient at the top of the liquid column. This will also cause some convective currents as the cooler fluid drops down the column.
- Without a circulation pump, the liquid around the rod will form an envelope that is closer to the rod temp than the ambient fluid. This will decrease the delta T and reduce the efficiency tremendously. I suggest a small pump that draws from the outlet and returns to the inlet.
- Even the temperature gradient through the rod will decrease the effectiveness of the heat transfer from rod to peltier device. For optimum results, the cold face of the peltier should be presented with the ambient fluid temp. This means (almost) wort to peltier contact.
All that said, I would recommend you try the following:
- Make an aluminum chiller block of substantial mass. I haven't looked up the temp coefficient of aluminum, but I'd consider 1kg a good starting point.
- create a 1/4" bore that snakes through the block creating as much tubing (i.e. surface area) as possible. Since I lack machine tools, I would probably make a 2" coil of copper and cast it into a block of Aluminum.
- Attach the peltier cold side to the block. Make an insulating plate with a hole the side of the peltier. The insulator goes between the chiller block and the heat sink to prevent thermal xfer.
- Use a heat sink with a ton of surface area, sink grease, and killer fan. Your peltiers maximum cooling is X degrees below the hot side temp. As such, the hotter the hot side is, the warmer the cold side is. Ideally, you would submerse the hot side in a cooler of ice water. Realistically, you want the heat sink surface as near ambient air temp as possible for maximum performance.
- Plumb the in and out lock valves to the chiller block with appropriate tubing and a small pump.
- Insulate the corny. Heat gain from the surface of an SS tube is huge. Get some aluminized thermal bubble wrap, and use a wrap about 2" thick. Alternately, drop the corny into a cardboard concrete form and fill the gap with liquid foam. If you go this route, buy 2 part mix-n-use foam as the spray can stuff requires air and does not harden throughout in large volumes.
Just my $0.02,
Philip
pldoolittle, I think you make a few interesting points, but:
1. A pump is pretty impractical for the inside of a fermenter. The pump generates heat, introduces risk of contamination (more so if submerged pump), and power cables or tubes must be run into the fermenter.
2. mixing metals like Alu and copper is a very bad idea in an ionic solution like beer. I'm into the whole water-cooling thing with computers, and while galvanic corrosion can be averted, it usually requires a retardant like antifreeze. Envision green gunk floating in your beer...
Otherwise I generally agree. Cool down that hot side, get more surface area on both ends, and insulate the heck outta it. I'm pretty sure Yuri already most of those in mind, though.
1. A pump is pretty impractical for the inside of a fermenter. The pump generates heat, introduces risk of contamination (more so if submerged pump), and power cables or tubes must be run into the fermenter.
2. mixing metals like Alu and copper is a very bad idea in an ionic solution like beer. I'm into the whole water-cooling thing with computers, and while galvanic corrosion can be averted, it usually requires a retardant like antifreeze. Envision green gunk floating in your beer...
Otherwise I generally agree. Cool down that hot side, get more surface area on both ends, and insulate the heck outta it. I'm pretty sure Yuri already most of those in mind, though.
Philip1993
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Actually, I was thinking about an outboard pump. In fact, the entire unit would be outboard and connect to the in and out ball lock fittings. That way you could chill any old corny. In fact, if you got creative with some T's, you could use it to chill a corny as you serve from it.
Alternately, someone like Yuri could weld two 1/4" nipples into the side of the fermenter just below the "waterline". That would reduce stirring up the trub and convection currents would carry the cooler surface fluid down.
Hadn't thought about the negatives of Al/Cu. No biggie. Just substitute SS for the block, or use SS tubing cast into an Al block. The only moving part the beer encounters is the pump body. And for a diaphram pump, that's just a viton cavity with one flexible wall. Cleaning is nothing more than connecting the ball locks to a container full of santizer and flushing well.
PLD
Alternately, someone like Yuri could weld two 1/4" nipples into the side of the fermenter just below the "waterline". That would reduce stirring up the trub and convection currents would carry the cooler surface fluid down.
Hadn't thought about the negatives of Al/Cu. No biggie. Just substitute SS for the block, or use SS tubing cast into an Al block. The only moving part the beer encounters is the pump body. And for a diaphram pump, that's just a viton cavity with one flexible wall. Cleaning is nothing more than connecting the ball locks to a container full of santizer and flushing well.
PLD
A wholly external system does make a lot of sense, in that it'd be much easier to create a high surface area contact with the wort; an inverted Alu CPU heatsink would probably make for an excellent (and cheap) solution for cooling the liquid. I would almost suggest a water block, but there's too much of a risk of it getting gunked by the fermenting wort.
The downside is that it'd be a bit harder to clean, but you could just power up the pump and run PBW or Oxyclean through it and the fermentor for a while; should take care of most everything.
The downside is that it'd be a bit harder to clean, but you could just power up the pump and run PBW or Oxyclean through it and the fermentor for a while; should take care of most everything.
theoriginalryan
Active Member
im guessing you gave up on this project. Break my heart to, because i have about 20 TEC's that i need a use for, and i wanted to try something like this with it. I think the biggest problem with the system is the hot side of the element. If you are sticking a heatsink with a fan on the hot side, its just blowing the heat back around the fermenter. what about using water blocks on the hot side and piping it off the a radiator, that was getting the heat away from the fermentor. I would be willing to donate atleast 10 TEC, in the hope that you, the weld master, could get this to work. what do you think?
Ryan
Ryan
conpewter
Well-Known Member
I know, old thread. Was wondering if anyone had updates on this. What you really need is a 9" or so round tube about oh.... 2-3' high made of one large peltier, maybe plated with SS (is that possible?) then just plug it in, that would just be great
I guess the actual practical idea is... less powerful TEC, just more of them spread over some sort of fermenting vessel. Something with a flat side would work best of course
I guess the actual practical idea is... less powerful TEC, just more of them spread over some sort of fermenting vessel. Something with a flat side would work best of course
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