DIY Electric Brew Kettle Help Needed

[Jaybird]

No. You want wire that's protected, meant for use outside of walls. More like this:

http://www.homedepot.com/s/10%2F3?NCNI-5


Looks reasonable. FYI, "nuetral" should be "neutral". I thought it was a typo the first time you did it, but you've done it more than once. Doesn't change your wiring.

Please make sure to use a 30A/240V 2-pole GFI breaker on this setup.

Kal

Kal
Your dedication to safety and electric brewing assistance is top notch man, we're lucky to have you on the board!


Cheers
Jay

 

[Brounds24]

You don't need both a breaker and switch in the control box. One will do. You'll find that switches rated for 240V/30A are hard to come by/expensive. A breaker is simpler. Note that either this breaker or the one that protects the main circuit should be GFCI protected for safety reasons.

Kal

So I will need a breaker than.

 

[Brounds24]

You know I love my diagrams (visual guy):

Better?

*Control box is a typo ment project box

 

[kal]

You already have a breaker in your main panel so you don't need a separate one in your control box.

What you should have is GFI protection which is usually done in the breaker, so you'd have to swap out the one in the main panel for a GFI breaker.

If you wish to leave that breaker in the main panel as is (not a bad idea if you use the 30A outlet for other things that may prove problematic on a GFI breaker), put a separate GFI breaker in your control box as your last picture shows.

Thanks for the compliments Jay!

Kal

 

[Swab]

Maybe I've missed it, but how are you controlling the amount of power to the element? If you are using a manual 'switch' you won't be able to control the vigor of the boil, you'll need something to control the output to the kettle to do this (PWM, PID, etc.).

However, if you plan to use the vessel in question as a mashtun, a switch will work (although not as elegant as a PID setup).

 

[Brounds24]

Kal:
The Breakers in my main panel are all GFI so I will be fine. Thank you again for all of your help. I am making a KBS clone at the end of the month and I want to make sure I dot my i's and cross my t's.

Swab:
will this unit really create that vigorous of a boil? I generally make 10 gallon batches and Ive heard 1500W isnt enough to keep 5-6 gallons at a slow rolling boiling.

 

[kal]

Kal:
The Breakers in my main panel are all GFI so I will be fine.

That is very unlikely. GFI breakers are 5-10 times the cost. There would be absolutely no reason to have all GFI breakers, and some devices may not work properly with GFI breakers. There's no way a house builder or electrician would put all GFI breakers in a breaker panel. The cost would be astronomical for no reason. You're likely thinking of something different.

Kal

 

[Swab]

Kal:
Swab:
will this unit really create that vigorous of a boil? I generally make 10 gallon batches and Ive heard 1500W isnt enough to keep 5-6 gallons at a slow rolling boiling.

What size an element are you using? I use a 5500 watt element on my setup. For 5.5 gallon batches (so starting at 7 or so is gallons) I run it at 68% to maintain a good boil.

 

[Brounds24]

What size an element are you using? I use a 5500 watt element on my setup. For 5.5 gallon batches (so starting at 7 or so is gallons) I run it at 68% to maintain a good boil.

I have a 5500W also, but I will be using it on 12 gallons give or take. If you at 70 percent for 7 gallons (roughly 10% power per gallon) im assuming ill be running at 100%. I know its not a linear trend but it will be close.

 

[kal]

For a 60 min boil I usually start with 13.9 gallon (preboil) and boil down to 12 gallons. End result is 10 gallons packaged at the end of the day. I run my 5500W/240V element at 85%. YMMV.

Kal

 

[sabbato753]

Kal:
The Breakers in my main panel are all GFI so I will be fine. Thank you again for all of your help. I am making a KBS clone at the end of the month and I want to make sure I dot my i's and cross my t's.

Brounds, I will offer a bit of unsolicited advice:

The brew setup that Kal has outlined through the years with the Electric Brewery work WONDERS. However, I cannot stress this enough - DO NOT SHORTCUT your testing. It took me almost 3 months of fiddling just to make sure all of my kettles were good, grounded, leakproof and controlled properly. Now, I built mine over the course of evenings here and there but just making sure everything fit (both dry and wet, then tested for heat because things expand) took some time. It's pretty clear you haven't yet begun the wiring, and making sure that it seals is CRITICAL to safety.

Please just don't rush your setup - the investment pays off over time to really know and understand how everything fits together, and how things wire up. You are NOT playing with "I got a little tingle" power. Understanding what things are protective in your setup (GFI), what are convenient (switches) and what are dangerous (how waterproof are you making your connection to the heating element?) are crucial not just to the "finer" controls (PID vs SSVR) but also for keeping yourself safe and your first batch from being ruined.

The TL;DR of this is: You're mixing 13 gallons of water with enough electric that it can kill you by the time the breaker trips. If you are unsure of what you're doing here, brew your next batch the OLD way and take time to build and UNDERSTAND this kettle. It'll be around for the brew after that, and all the ones to come if you do it right. Stay safe!

 

[Swab]

I have a 5500W also, but I will be using it on 12 gallons give or take. If you at 70 percent for 7 gallons (roughly 10% power per gallon) im assuming ill be running at 100%. I know its not a linear trend but it will be close.

You may find that your boil is to vigorous, you should add some type of way to adjust the power IMHO. Doesn't have to be anything too complicated, can you and infinite switch, PWM, or PID (which really isn't that expensive..).

Also, on the GFCI thing, to echo what Kal said, I doubt that you have GFCI on every circuit in the house. Do you breakers have 'push to test' buttons on them similar to the one shown here:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=gfci...2Felectrical%2Fa-circuit-breaker.html;300;300

GFCI isn't something to mess around with, it can save your life.

 

[Brounds24]

You may find that your boil is to vigorous, you should add some type of way to adjust the power IMHO. Doesn't have to be anything too complicated, can you and infinite switch, PWM, or PID (which really isn't that expensive..).

Also, on the GFCI thing, to echo what Kal said, I doubt that you have GFCI on every circuit in the house. Do you breakers have 'push to test' buttons on them similar to the one shown here:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=gfci...2Felectrical%2Fa-circuit-breaker.html;300;300

GFCI isn't something to mess around with, it can save your life.

My apartment Complex (fairly new) told me that to be up to code they must install GFCI breakers in all units. Should I have reason to doubt him? I also dont see a test button, do i have to remove the panel to see this?

 

[kal]

My apartment Complex (fairly new) told me that to be up to code they must install GFCI breakers in all units. Should I have reason to doubt him?

He likely means that GFIs were installed in all apartment units where required which is some web locations usually. You may also have ARC fault breakers for all the others, but definitely not GFI and definitely not on a 30A dryer style outlet.

I also dont see a test button, do i have to remove the panel to see this?

You only need to open the door to access the ON/OFF switches of the breakers. GFIs will have little PUSH TO TEST buttons. Note that ARC fault breakers will also have TEST buttons. They are not the same thing.

Kal

 

[Brounds24]

You only need to open the door to access the ON/OFF switches of the breakers. GFIs will have little PUSH TO TEST buttons. Note that ARC fault breakers will also have TEST buttons. They are not the same thing.

Kal

So to error on the side of caution, just buy this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HEIVXC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

is 50 a good price?

 

[kal]

You cannot simply buy any breaker. You must get one that is matched to your electrical panel.

I highly recommend you seek an electrician to do this work for you.

Kal

 

[sabbato753]

Brounds,

Really, we're not trying to be unhelpful - we're just trying to help you in a different way. The guides written for building these setups are designed for people to have a certain level of requisite knowledge, or to get someone involved who does.

Since you're living in an apartment building, you REALLY should consult your landlord before just swapping out breakers. Electricity is a "rated" system, meaning that breakers, wiring, plugs and devices are ALL designed to carry only up to certain loads. This can and does include your mains, which for an apartment may well be limited to 50A to begin with (at which point, plugging this in plus having your fridge turn on with a couple lights on can actually overload the circuit).

Let the apartment's electrician come and do that work for you, as they'll know what breaker to use with your panel, as well as some of the other details that you are struggling with. At this point it's not just safety, but also building codes, lease agreements and (last but something you're likely to pay attention to) preventing you from wasting money on the wrong parts.

 

[Rivenin]

plus if you start swapping out breakers and something is wrong, or you wire something wrong and there is a fire... you might have a hefty lawsuit on your hands ontop of the probability of injury.

 

[gnor]

I suppose you mean a condo or townhome complex, not a rental apartment.

 

[Swab]

I'd also add that if this is a rental, then you may want to invest in a more portable GFCI setup. You won't need to worry about messing around with the breaker box this way.

Also, please do consider using an electrician. When getting my dedicated plug installed for my setup, I hired a licensed electrician to do the work and got it inspected. It's not complicated (from what I'm told), but I wanted to ensure that it was done correctly as this is the 'backstop' that is put in place to prevent a potential lethal situation.

 

[Brounds24]

I know an License Electrician (i wont see him until xmas however) what is a list of things I need to buy to get this done? I want to plug this into into 120V outlets and still get full power from Element. Can this be done by using 2 plugs and that branch from the wire going to the element. I also want a PID hooked up to control power. Can someone help me out. thanks

 

[gnor]

Plug that in 120V outlets won't get full power.

 

[Brounds24]

Plug that in 120V outlets won't get full power.

even if two plugs splice into one wire, like this?

120V
=[]-------\
}----------------[]========
=[]-------/ 240V wire
120V


I dont know if that can be done, but with all the differing set-ups, needing to wait until i can meet up with the electrician, the danger, the cost, the hassel. propane just seem way easier at this point

 

[kal]

what is a list of things I need to buy to get this done?

Nobody can provide you that as you've only given us rough high level diagrams of what you want to do.

I want to plug this into into 120V outlets and still get full power from Element.

That would be impossible. A 240V element requires 240V. I'm confused why you bring this up so late given that you've drawn half a dozen diagrams that show that you have a 240V/30A receptacle available to you.

Can this be done by using 2 plugs and that branch from the wire going to the element.

No.

I also want a PID hooked up to control power. Can someone help me out.

I suggest you spend some time figuring out what you want to do and read up on the many threads available here. There are many threads/posts available that show how to use a PID. You can also use information from my website to learn how to do this (see link in my signature). PIDs are very common. All the information you need is available.

Kal

 

[Brounds24]

I'm confused why you bring this up so late given that you've drawn half a dozen diagrams that show that you have a 240V/30A receptacle available to you.

I think my problems are all arising from trying to use 240V/30A when i could run on 120V/20A


I Could buy a second heating element ($17) and run them both with 120V, and with the power drop still be at 3325W ((5500W on 120V= 1375W on 11.5A) + (2000W on 120V= 2000W on 16.6A) = 3325W)

this will be enough power to boil 12 gallons in about 30 minutes.

running these on separate circuits, both with GFCI Outlets, none of the headache of 240,30A wire,breakers, etc.

If no wiring is need to my electrical panel I can have all my ordered parts sent to the electrician and he can make the box for me and i can pay him to ship it to my house.

I check the GFCI outlets before i use them, plug in, done.

 

[gnor]

There is no way for 3325W to boil 12 gallons of wort in 30 mins! Not even with 2x 2000W of elements.

 

[Brounds24]

There is no way for 3325W to boil 12 gallons of wort in 30 mins! Not even with 2x 2000W of elements.

from 155 to 212?

 

[Brounds24]

From another thread

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/120v-3000w-heating-element-263437/

Back to your original question.


5 gallon batch - assuming you start with 6 gallons in the kettle and wort temp is 165*F - will need just under 15-20 minutes to come to a boil

10 gallon batch - assuming you start with 11 gallons in the kettle and wort temp is 165*F - will need just around 30 minutes to come to a boil

 

[kal]

Use calculators to figure out rise time for a given amount of watts:

http://www.brewheads.com/powerrequired.php
http://www.brewheads.com/rise.php

You'd need 3687W to go from 155 to 212 in 30 mins in an uninsulated kettle. So pretty close to your numbers.

Now that said, I don't think I'd want to boil 12 gallons with ~3300W. You'll get to 212F but it will be slow to hot break, the boil may be a little anemic.

Kal

 

[Rivenin]

Now that said, I don't think I'd want to boil 12 gallons with ~3300W. You'll get to 212F but it will be slow to hot break, the boil may be a little anemic.

Kal

i've done 12 gallons for a 10 gallon ending batch on 3000w wasn't very great at all and wouldn't do it again... i don't think 300w extra would help much.

if you are going to go for 10 gallon batches and you are set on 120v, use 20 amp circuits and get 2000w elements.

How about this...
Tell us what power you have
tell us what you want to do and we can help you... it's just been hard to help because what you've been wanting has been changing a bit.