DIY Conical Fermenter

[Yuri_Rage]

I have problems with mine keeping a seal beyond the fermentation pressure range. There is no way mine will hold enough pressure to allow pushing beer with CO2 any kind of distance. I have eight clamps on each of mine. I am seriously considering going with a Fermenator clamping system, but am open to alternatives!

This is definitely a concern of mine...and the primary reason I haven't committed to a price. I'm going to start with four latches, but I'm prepared to use eight. If it takes more than that...back to the drawing board.

 

[EdWort]

Yuri, you rock man!

Then repeating "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy" while bowing and groveling backwards.

 

[Spyk'd]

...so what you are saying is that these fermentors have about a ten gallon capacity...



...a wet towel will not be sufficient to cool the ambient + fermenting heat temps that are coming your way.



Prove me wrong and provide a cheap and efficient method of cooling and I will buy a couple/few.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

...so what you are saying is that these fermentors have about a ten gallon capacity...

...a wet towel will not be sufficient to cool the ambient + fermenting heat temps that are coming your way.

Wow...guess I have to take the good with the bad! But I certainly open myself to criticism by posting here, so fire away!

These are 21 gallon hoppers, so a very pessimistic max volume estimate is 15 gallons.

As for cheap cooling - I can't guarantee that a towel will do it. I think it's possible that you could rig a few wet towels with some clothespins to effectively cool the fermenter 5-10 degrees, but you're right, I'm not sure.

My plan is to build an outdoor brew closet just wide/deep enough to hold the fermenter on the top shelf with brew supplies underneath. I'll insulate it and use a $50 window air conditioner (new on eBay) for cooling. When the outdoor temps get colder, I'll use a small heating element to raise the temperature appropriately. For my investment thus far, that seems cheap and efficient.

 

[DrewsBrews]

This is definitely a concern of mine...and the primary reason I haven't committed to a price. I'm going to start with four latches, but I'm prepared to use eight. If it takes more than that...back to the drawing board.

Seems to me that you could get away with a minimal number of latches if you could find a way to evenly distribute the clamping pressure. The lid appears to be relatively thin. What about welding a ring of thicker stainless to the lid around the edge?

I'll try to explain the example I see in my mind. Take a piece of SS flat bar, something around 3/4 to 1 inch wide and up to 3/16 thick (although 1/8 inch thick would probably be enough). Mold it to the general diameter of the lid (visualize rolling it around a barrel). Then weld it to the lip of the lid. You've effectively stabilized the edge of the lid so that four, or maybe even three clamps would crank the lid down tightly all the way around.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Seems to me that you could get away with a minimal number of latches if you could find a way to evenly distribute the clamping pressure. The lid appears to be relatively thin. What about welding a ring of thicker stainless to the lid around the edge?

Seems you may have just come up with the intermediate step between trying four clamps and going right to eight if four don't do it. Thanks!

 

[DrewsBrews]

Seems you may have just come up with the intermediate step between trying four clamps and going right to eight if four don't do it. Thanks!

I've been toying with the idea of making one or two of my own (been asking Brewpastor about his too).

I'll be watching the thread and picking your brain as you complete the project. I'm especially interested in how you're going to do the rotating racking arm.

 

[Todd]

I've been toying with the idea of making one or two of my own (been asking Brewpastor about his too).

I'll be watching the thread and picking your brain as you complete the project. I'm especially interested in how you're going to do the rotating racking arm.

I'm in the same boat, planning out my own future projects.

Could you weld the flat bar stock on the inside in a square patern? That should help make the lid more rigid.

How much pressure is this going to need to work?

 

[Hopfan]

Sorry, but I'm still new to all this. What is the advantage to a conical fermenter?

 

[Todd]

Sorry, but I'm still new to all this. What is the advantage to a conical fermenter?

Well the biggest is probably size. Splitting a large batch up between buckets could suck. Plus there is no need to transfer.

There are some downsides. The size, it is harder to cool a large fermentor.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Well the biggest is probably size. Splitting a large batch up between buckets could suck. Plus there is no need to transfer.

There are some downsides. The size, it is harder to cool a large fermentor.

as well as one step fermenting. Let your beer ferment out, then dump the trubb and yeast, there you go....your now in your secondary fermentation. Also its very easy for yeast collection.

 

[DrewsBrews]

as well as one step fermenting. Let your beer ferment out, then dump the trubb and yeast, there you go....your now in your secondary fermentation. Also its very easy for yeast collection.

That's my main reason. I'm also planning an AG setup with a counter-flow chiller. A fair amount of the proteins/trub are going to end up in the fermenter as the wort chills in route to the fermenter. I like heavier beers, which means a lot of crap in the bottom. Sure would be nice to dump that junk out the bottom after the first week and never have to transfer to a secondary again. :rockin:

Ten gallon batches are in my future too. Much easier to deal with in one fermenter than two!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

The lid appears to be relatively thin. What about welding a ring of thicker stainless to the lid around the edge?

You're right about relatively thin - it's 14 ga material, and it has some minimal warping from welding the corny top onto it. I tried four latches tonight, and sure enough, it leaks, but not terribly. I'm going to add that collar you describe - here's my source for the flat bar.

For the rotating racking arm, I kinda copped out and just bought one. Here's the link for that.

 

[runhard]

"Prove me wrong and provide a cheap and efficient method of cooling and I will buy a couple/few."

Hey Spyk'd
Bear with me as I'm not an engineer and in no way wired like one but what about using a few peltier devices strategically placed on the conical. Yuri_Rage certainly has the capacity to machine aluminum heat sinks for the "heat" side of the peltier device and I believe you can even stack the smaller modules to gain greater cooling capacity. I guess the problem would be attaching to the outside of the stainless.......hum, didn't think about that but maybe a curved aluminum spacer to which the peltier is permanently attached and then the curved aluminum is attached by bolts that are welded to the outside of the conical. Just an idea to toss out there but might be costly.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

"Prove me wrong and provide a cheap and efficient method of cooling and I will buy a couple/few."

Hey Spyk'd
Bear with me as I'm not an engineer and in no way wired like one but what about using a few peltier devices strategically placed on the conical. Yuri_Rage certainly has the capacity to machine aluminum heat sinks for the "heat" side of the peltier device and I believe you can even stack the smaller modules to gain greater cooling capacity. I guess the problem would be attaching to the outside of the stainless.......hum, didn't think about that but maybe a curved aluminum spacer to which the peltier is permanently attached and then the curved aluminum is attached by bolts that are welded to the outside of the conical. Just an idea to toss out there but might be costly.

This looks interesting. ...and cheap. A few of these around the fermenter with heat-sink compound on both sides, wrap it with a metal band to hold them on, attach some heat sinks to the metal band, direct a fan across the whole works... It just might work!

 

[Todd]

This looks interesting. ...and cheap. A few of these around the fermenter with heat-sink compound on both sides, wrap it with a metal band to hold them on, attach some heat sinks to the metal band, direct a fan across the whole works... It just might work!

I think morebeer.com uses these for their heated and cooled conicals. I wonder how cold these will get?

 

[Todd]

You're right about relatively thin - it's 14 ga material, and it has some minimal warping from welding the corny top onto it. I tried four latches tonight, and sure enough, it leaks, but not terribly. I'm going to add that collar you describe - here's my source for the flat bar.

For the rotating racking arm, I kinda copped out and just bought one. Here's the link for that.

Yuri, are those suppose to rotate from the outside? It looks to me like something you would set from the inside by loosening the flare nut.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Yuri, are those suppose to rotate from the outside? It looks to me like something you would set from the inside by loosening the flare nut.

Yes, they rotate from the outside. The flare nut doesn't tighten down against the side of the fermenter, rather it tightens against the fitting that comes in from the outside, squashing an o-ring in the process.

 

[Todd]

Yes, they rotate from the outside. The flare nut doesn't tighten down against the side of the fermenter, rather it tightens against the fitting that comes in from the outside, squashing an o-ring in the process.

See I am learning all sorts of things here. So when you rotate the fitting is slides on the Oring? Seems like it would leak..

Next question. Why is that needed? I understand wanting a test port to get readings and such but if you are dumping the yeast out the bottom why would you not just rack from the same port? It seems like you could save the $50. Am I missing something?

 

[Todd]

Yuri I have another question about cooling. I've seen the electronic do dads but they say they use a lot of juice to run.

Have you seen Brewpastor's setup? I'm wondering if you could do the copper coil on the inside of your lid, then use a smallish fridge or the top of a freezer to cool the coolant, a small pump should handle the duty. I think most who get a fermentor this large already have a spare fridge. you could use a love switch to control it.

Any thoughts?


Granted the electronic setup would be cool but I think till you had it sleeved and all you are looking at quite a bit more money.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

See I am learning all sorts of things here. So when you rotate the fitting is slides on the Oring? Seems like it would leak..

Next question. Why is that needed? I understand wanting a test port to get readings and such but if you are dumping the yeast out the bottom why would you not just rack from the same port? It seems like you could save the $50. Am I missing something?

Yeah, I was a little leary, but for $50, they better work. It did hold water during an early test. The idea behind it is that you get absolutely no sediment in your bottled/kegged beer. Because of the conical shape, your loss from those bottom 2 or 3 inches is quite minimal. Certainly you could rack from the bottom, but you'd probably lose the same amount by waiting for the sediment to clear. Also, the dump valve on my design is much larger at 1", and the racking port is only 1/2," so you'll get finer flow control.

Have you seen Brewpastor's setup? I'm wondering if you could do the copper coil on the inside of your lid, then use a smallish fridge or the top of a freezer to cool the coolant, a small pump should handle the duty. I think most who get a fermentor this large already have a spare fridge. you could use a love switch to control it.

Granted the electronic setup would be cool but I think till you had it sleeved and all you are looking at quite a bit more money.

I've seen pics of the Pastor's setup, and I've also personally used a sleeved fermenter when sitting in on someeone else's brew. I'd sleeve the fermenters, but that would immediately take them out of the price range I'm shooting for (cheaper than the Fermenator), and it would require a lot more time with a lot more risk incurred by doing that much leak-proof welding. Glycol in a small chest freezer works really well, either through a sleeve or a coil, but I doubt it's very much cheaper than the electronic stuff. Either way, you're gonna need a temperature controller, and you'll need a pump for the glycol setup. I'm just going to build a fermentation closet on the back porch that includes a small window A/C unit, a heating element (of undetermined type right now), and a Ranco temperature controller. I'll post pics of that in another thread when I start building it.

 

[Todd]

Yeah, I was a little leary, but for $50, they better work. It did hold water during an early test. The idea behind it is that you get absolutely no sediment in your bottled/kegged beer. Because of the conical shape, your loss from those bottom 2 or 3 inches is quite minimal. Certainly you could rack from the bottom, but you'd probably lose the same amount by waiting for the sediment to clear. Also, the dump valve on my design is much larger at 1", and the racking port is only 1/2," so you'll get finer flow control.

I've seen pics of the Pastor's setup, and I've also personally used a sleeved fermenter when sitting in on someeone else's brew. I'd sleeve the fermenters, but that would immediately take them out of the price range I'm shooting for (cheaper than the Fermenator), and it would require a lot more time with a lot more risk incurred by doing that much leak-proof welding. Glycol in a small chest freezer works really well, either through a sleeve or a coil, but I doubt it's very much cheaper than the electronic stuff. Either way, you're gonna need a temperature controller, and you'll need a pump for the glycol setup. I'm just going to build a fermentation closet on the back porch that includes a small window A/C unit, a heating element (of undetermined type right now), and a Ranco temperature controller. I'll post pics of that in another thread when I start building it.

Sounds good. Thanks

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Sounds good. Thanks

No sweat, man. Glad you (and other folks) are interested. Obviously I'm fascinated with stuff like this, and I'm more than happy to share the experience as it progresses. Feel free to jump in with suggestions/comments anytime!

 

[Musthavbeer]

Just to throw in my two cents, I've read that JZ Cools his wort, racks to his conical and then because his sanitation is good waits overnight to pitch yeast. Before pitching he dumps the trub out the bottom. He states that it really helps his lagers in particular where there is no place for off flavors to hide. Keep up the great work Yuri.

 

[disaffected]

Yuri, I'm not exactly sure what a tri-clamp is or why they are so special, but I noticed that SABCO sells two 15.5 gallon fermenters, and the more expensive one uses a Tri-clamp to secure the lid. Would something like that work for the lid on your conical?

The SABCO looks like a pretty nice setup and is less expensive than a conical, but of course, it lacks the bottom trub dump and yeast collection capabilities, so it is not as functional either.

Click on the pictures on these pages for a closeup:

SABCO fermentor - tri-clamp version
SABCO fermentor - economy model

I also like the small brass valve they used on the economy model to connect the airlock. Similar to what you did, but probably a less expensive part.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Yuri, I'm not exactly sure what a tri-clamp is or why they are so special, but I noticed that SABCO sells two 15.5 gallon fermenters, and the more expensive one uses a Tri-clamp to secure the lid. Would something like that work for the lid on your conical?

The SABCO looks like a pretty nice setup and is less expensive than a conical, but of course, it lacks the bottom trub dump and yeast collection capabilities, so it is not as functional either.

Click on the pictures on these pages for a closeup:

SABCO fermentor - tri-clamp version
SABCO fermentor - economy model

I also like the small brass valve they used on the economy model to connect the airlock. Similar to what you did, but probably a less expensive part.

I think tri-clamps are a bit more leak-proof than other quick-clamp devices. However, I looked into that, and the Sabco version uses a size specific to their keg opening. The same clamp would not work on the 21" diameter fermenter I'm building. I wish it fit, as it looks like a nice seal.

As to the post about using tri-clamps for the racking arm, I think that's perfectly reasonable, as I'm sure there's a 1/2" NPT to tri-clamp fitting of the size you show.

I found a good source (between Northern Brewer and McMaster Carr) for stainless ball valves. It was only marginally more expensive to use the stainless one vs the mini brass one.

 

[Todd]

Yuri,

did you notice that the fermenator uses a clamp for the main lid, I wonder if it is custom made? Also wonder what a local fab shop might charge to make something like that. Should not be too expensive or hard if you tried it yourself.

Next question. Is it possible to let the beer naturally carb in one of these and then bottle right from the fermentor? The reason I ask is it would be nice to not have all the yeast in the bottom of the bottles plus it might cut down on time till I can drink it.

I understand it would need to hold pressure, I'm curious how much? Would a normal bottle filler work at that point or would I need something fancy?

Any updated pictures?

Todd

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Todd, I looked at the Fermenator quite a bit before starting this project. Ideally, I'd like to use a clamp like theirs for the lid, but I never came up with a source for one or a good means of making a similar one. I've gone down a different road at this point, and I think I've got a means of sealing that will work. Assuming my method is successful, it should probably hold the 10-12 psi required for carbonation. The last parts I need should be here tomorrow. I'll post pressure test results after I fabricate the latch system and test it.

 

[Todd]

Todd, I looked at the Fermenator quite a bit before starting this project. Ideally, I'd like to use a clamp like theirs for the lid, but I never came up with a source for one or a good means of making a similar one. I've gone down a different road at this point, and I think I've got a means of sealing that will work. Assuming my method is successful, it should probably hold the 10-12 psi required for carbonation. The last parts I need should be here tomorrow. I'll post pressure test results after I fabricate the latch system and test it.

Great sounds good.

I think the clamp they use is a simple strap, probaby 18g or less. Then there is a loop on each end, one side has a "nut" the other a "bolt". In order to make the seal they use V shaped peices tack welded to the inside of the strap. It should be fairly easy for you to fab something like that up. If you ever wanted to try.

I know you set a keg setup to 10-12 psi but does a bottle see that much also?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Great sounds good.

I think the clamp they use is a simple strap, probaby 18g or less. Then there is a loop on each end, one side has a "nut" the other a "bolt". In order to make the seal they use V shaped peices tack welded to the inside of the strap. It should be fairly easy for you to fab something like that up. If you ever wanted to try.

I know you set a keg setup to 10-12 psi but does a bottle see that much also?

From what I can tell, the Fermenator lid doesn't have a "lip," so the clamp you describe works quite well. My lids have a 1/2" lip, which makes things a bit more difficult.

Bottles probably see just a touch higher pressure on average, certainly with transients (temp changes and agitation) well above 10-12 psi. Force carbonation is usually done at a higher pressure as well (20-30 psi).