DIY Conical Fermenter

[Yuri_Rage]

Uh oh, Yuri's at it again!

The UPS guy was really kind today and brought almost all of the parts for my next adventure in homebrewing. I bought five of the 21 gallon conical hoppers that Toledo Metal Spinning offers, taking advantage of their bulk pricing. They'll have 1" 3-piece dump valves, rotating racking arms with 1/2" 3-piece valves, and lids fabricated from the stock Toledo lid + the top of a single handle corny keg. I was so excited, I completely switched gears in the garage and got to work! Pics so far:

Sweet, my welds turned out water-tight! SWMBO loves when I test my projects out in the kitchen...

Eventually there'll be a 90 degree elbow between the dump valve and the welded fitting.

I'm gonna sell the four extra ones after they're finished, either here or on eBay. Price and details to be determined...I'll keep you posted. Hopefully I'll finish a lid tonight and have some pics to share.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Wow.....


Man, you do some really good work. Looking forward to tomorrows pics

 

[TheJadedDog]

What do you do for a living man, I am beyond impressed with your DIY skills.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

What do you do for a living man, I am beyond impressed with your DIY skills.

I have a decent job working for Uncle Sam, but it doesn't require fabrication skills. I just have an unhealthy fascination for cool tools and the stuff I can make with them. Thanks for the compliment!!!

Here's the progress so far. Not bad for an evening in the garage, I suppose. I have some stainless square tube on order for the legs, but it hasn't arrived yet. I can't wait to put one of these to use!

 

[Desert_Sky]

sexy

I wonder if I would be able to keep 10 gallons cool enough. I have an ambient temp of 68 degrees under the stairs in a closet. But I cant exactly wrap a wet towel around that bad boy though.

 

[rdwj]

That is AWESOME!

I think it's time to change your title from "Tim Allen's Clone" to "Tim Allen's Hero"

 

[ian]

So a price list is forthcoming then??
That looks awesome by the way.

 

[Todd]

Yuri,

What are you doing for the welds? how are you making sure they are sanitary on the inside. Also what exactly does that mean? I was watching a show and they said all the welds were sanded and polished. Is that needed?

Todd

 

[Yuri_Rage]

So a price list is forthcoming then??

I'll figure up a price after I "engineer" the lid latches - they might drive my cost up a little. I will post a parts list in case there's another hardcore DIY-er around.

What are you doing for the welds? how are you making sure they are sanitary on the inside. Also what exactly does that mean? I was watching a show and they said all the welds were sanded and polished. Is that needed?

So far I've been using 3/32" 309 alloy TIG filler rod, pure argon, and a Lincoln Square Wave machine with a 1/16" 2% thoriated electrode in an air cooled torch. I chose 309 because it works best for joining dissimilar alloys and can be used on mild steel (i.e., the lid latches). As far as "sanitary welds" - that's a bit of a joke to me. Yes, I'm going to grind any roughness down and avoid porosity at all cost, but I think the term is more of a marketing ploy than an actual process.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I wonder if I would be able to keep 10 gallons cool enough. I have an ambient temp of 68 degrees under the stairs in a closet. But I cant exactly wrap a wet towel around that bad boy though.

Actually, two wet towels and a few clothespins will probably work really well since metal is a much better conductor than glass and plastic. The dimensions are 20" in diameter by about 26" high - not too terribly big.

 

[Todd]

So far I've been using 3/32" 309 alloy TIG filler rod, pure argon, and a Lincoln Square Wave machine with a 1/16" 2% thoriated electrode in an air cooled torch. I chose 309 because it works best for joining dissimilar alloys and can be used on mild steel (i.e., the lid latches). As far as "sanitary welds" - that's a bit of a joke to me. Yes, I'm going to grind any roughness down and avoid porosity at all cost, but I think the term is more of a marketing ploy than an actual process.

I'm not questioning what you did but I have some questions. It looks like you welded a nipple to the bottom, did you need to back gas it or was sugaring not a concern?

Isn't the corny top stainless, or what do you mean by lid latches?

This is a general conical question, does the lid need to be locked down air tight? I know most of the available ones are. The plastic mini brew fermentors are not and they say it is fine to just sit the lid on. I guess the way it is shaped (like above) keeps any dirt or air from getting in. The reason I ask is I'm wondering if you need the corny top or not? I assume it is there for dry hopping but I think you might be able to just lift up the lid.

I'd also like to see how you set up the racking port.

Thanks for the posts, I'd love to see the parts list then.

Oh and how large of a batch can you ferment in this? 15G?

Todd

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm not questioning what you did but I have some questions. It looks like you welded a nipple to the bottom, did you need to back gas it or was sugaring not a concern?

Isn't the corny top stainless, or what do you mean by lid latches?

This is a general conical question, does the lid need to be locked down air tight? I know most of the available ones are. The plastic mini brew fermentors are not and they say it is fine to just sit the lid on. I guess the way it is shaped (like above) keeps any dirt or air from getting in. The reason I ask is I'm wondering if you need the corny top or not? I assume it is there for dry hopping but I think you might be able to just lift up the lid.

Oh and how large of a batch can you ferment in this? 15G?

Hey, question away...we're all here to learn, and I'm always intereseted in other opinions and ideas. I won't be offended if you offer them up, as long as you're not offended if I don't take the advice!

I back gassed the weld at the bottom by setting the hopper upside down on its lid and letting argon (heavier than air) flow into it for a minute or two.

The corny top is stainless, and I welded it from the underside. The lid latches will pull the whole lid down to seal against a large silicone o-ring around the outer perimeter - the idea being that the fermenter will have the ability to be air tight, and you can pressurize it with CO2 to "pump" the beer into kegs/bottles. The corny lid makes a nice dry hop port as well, and the single handle makes a good lid handle. I'd like to fabricate a fitting for an air lock/blow-off tube that will thread onto one of the ball lock ports. I don't like the idea of not having an air tight fermenter, and conicals would be just as susceptible to airborne contaminants as anything else, so I'm not sure why the plastic ones don't seal well.

It's 21 gallons in capacity, so 15 or even 18 gallons is pretty reasonable. If you were a bit brave, you could try 20 gallons, but you'd have to be prepared for a major blow-off.

 

[Todd]

Hey, question away...we're all here to learn, and I'm always intereseted in other opinions and ideas. I won't be offended if you offer them up, as long as you're not offended if I don't take the advice!

I back gassed the weld at the bottom by setting the hopper upside down on its lid and letting argon (heavier than air) flow into it for a minute or two.

The corny top is stainless, and I welded it from the underside. The lid latches will pull the whole lid down to seal against a large silicone o-ring around the outer perimeter - the idea being that the fermenter will have the ability to be air tight, and you can pressurize it with CO2 to "pump" the beer into kegs/bottles. The corny lid makes a nice dry hop port as well, and the single handle makes a good lid handle. I'd like to fabricate a fitting for an air lock/blow-off tube that will thread onto one of the ball lock ports. I don't like the idea of not having an air tight fermenter, and conicals would be just as susceptible to airborne contaminants as anything else, so I'm not sure why the plastic ones don't seal well.

It's 21 gallons in capacity, so 15 or even 18 gallons is pretty reasonable. If you were a bit brave, you could try 20 gallons, but you'd have to be prepared for a major blow-off.

This was the reason for no seal, now keep in mind it is a solid fit and there is a nice lip just like yours.

"The gasket is designed to seal the lid on the 8 and 15 gallon MiniBrew fermenters. We have advocated for many years that this is not necessary. The CO2 builds up inside forming a blanket of gas that protects the ferment. Bacteria will not penetrate this blanket of CO2 gas. "

How is Sabco doing their keg fermentors? I think they are using a corny top and hooking the air lock to the post. I wonder if you could use a ball socket gas fitting and make it a blow off hose???

I like the idea of being pressurized to serve. 20G will be heavy so unless you store this up high you will need some assistance.

Thanks for the tips on the welds, have you ever tried a product called Solar Flux? it is suppose to be used in places you can't back purge to prevent sugar, it is a paste. I have some but have not tried it yet.

Were you able to buy the corny top or did you cut one up?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

I'd like to fabricate a fitting for an air lock/blow-off tube that will thread onto one of the ball lock ports.

I would think those would clog too easily, get a chunk of hop or trub and you're in for a mess trying to fix it during the most violent part of fermentation. Maybe a threaded nipple welded onto the lid with a ball-valve blow-off/airlock port?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Thanks for the tips on the welds, have you ever tried a product called Solar Flux? it is suppose to be used in places you can't back purge to prevent sugar, it is a paste. I have some but have not tried it yet.

Were you able to buy the corny top or did you cut one up?

Never heard of Solar Flux, but I've seen other products that claim the same thing - seems like a solid concept.

I bought used cornies and cut the tops off - I looked at buying just the lids and fittings (new), but it was cheaper just to get the whole thing used.

As far as the ball lock port blow-off/air lock idea - I don't want to use a ball lock fitting to connect the rig, rather I want to unscrew and remove the whole ball lock assembly and use the existing threaded nipple on the keg top. That will limit the number of holes in the lid without limiting flexibility.

 

[Todd]

As far as the ball lock port blow-off/air lock idea - I don't want to use a ball lock fitting to connect the rig, rather I want to unscrew and remove the whole ball lock assembly and use the existing threaded nipple on the keg top. That will limit the number of holes in the lid without limiting flexibility.

If you used the existing pins and got quick disconects like you would for co2, wouldn't that be much faster? You said you planned to use co2 to dispense so you will need that pin correct?

Maybe I didn't explain right, if you took the disconnect, http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=18267 and put a tube on it for a blow off, wouldn't that allow you to effortlessly change from blow off to dispensing?

I might not understand your thought process either, any pictures of it?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Ok, my point (and I think the Chairman's) is that the quick disconnect will likely clog if you let krausen bubble into it.

The keg fittings simply unscrew, leaving a threaded nipple behind on the keg with about a 3/8" to 1/2" ID (I'll measure later). I could thread a barbed hose fitting onto it for a blow off tube. When it came time to pressurize, I simply unscrew the barbed fitting and replace it with the CO2 ball lock fitting. Is that clearer?

 

[Todd]

Ok, my point (and I think the Chairman's) is that the quick disconnect will likely clog if you let krausen bubble into it.

The keg fittings simply unscrew, leaving a threaded nipple behind on the keg with about a 3/8" to 1/2" ID (I'll measure later). I could thread a barbed hose fitting onto it for a blow off tube. When it came time to pressurize, I simply unscrew the barbed fitting and replace it with the CO2 ball lock fitting. Is that clearer?

gotcha, didn't realize the keg fitting was so small. Also thought you were welding an extra fitting for the barb, this clears it up.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

These pics should make things MUCH clearer. As a stroke of luck, 1/2" ID clear tube makes a snug fit on the threaded ball lock fitting, so I don't think I'm going to bother with the barbed fitting at all! Even more fortuitous is the fact that a 3-piece airlock fits inside the tube - with the addition of a small o-ring, it's a perfect seal!

EDIT: That pic with the airlock might be quite useful for someone who wants to turn a corny into a 5 gallon fermenter...

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Won't CO2 leak out of the threads on that?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Won't CO2 leak out of the threads on that?

Shoot, you're absolutely right! Silly me. I could probably put a hose clamp on there and make it work, but why half-ass a project like this? I'll do it right and get another fitting.

 

[Desert_Sky]

ive seen someone's corny as a fermentor. they left the post on, but took the poppet valve out to let air flow freely. Then they just put a piece of tuning on like you have

 

[Beer Weevel]

Co2 takes the path of least resistance which is out the top of the air lock.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

And here's the solution to the problem we discussed all day...1/2" fittings separate from any of the ball lock stuff.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Hey that's a great idea!

 

[alemonkey]

I'm impressed. And jealous. I can weld, but I've never done stainless before. If these sell well have you thought about continuing to make and sell them? I probably don't have the cash for one now, but in the future....

 

[Brewpastor]

Looks like fun! There are few things better then stainless. What do you plan to do to secure your lids and get enough of a seal to utilize the cornie fittings?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm impressed. And jealous. I can weld, but I've never done stainless before. If these sell well have you thought about continuing to make and sell them? I probably don't have the cash for one now, but in the future....

I have given that some thought - I'm really enjoying this project, and I wouldn't mind continuing if it seems worth my while. TMS sells a full line of conical hoppers, from 7 to well over 20 gallons, so customization is pretty easy.

As far as welding stainless, I'm far from an expert, but here are your considerations:
It looks/feels a lot like mild steel during welding, but it's more brittle, so it's not as forgiving if your heat control is erratic. You should consider back-gassing any full penetration welds, especially if they are structural. Talk to your welding supplier about your intentions, and he'll recommend the appropriate filler alloy. You can MIG, TIG, and gas weld stainless without any exotic setups. Here's a neat link.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Looks like fun! There are few things better then stainless. What do you plan to do to secure your lids and get enough of a seal to utilize the cornie fittings?

A minimum of four of these draw latches and a big silicone o-ring.

 

[Brewpastor]

I have problems with mine keeping a seal beyond the fermentation pressure range. There is no way mine will hold enough pressure to allow pushing beer with CO2 any kind of distance. I have eight clamps on each of mine. I am seriously considering going with a Fermenator clamping system, but am open to alternatives!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I have problems with mine keeping a seal beyond the fermentation pressure range. There is no way mine will hold enough pressure to allow pushing beer with CO2 any kind of distance. I have eight clamps on each of mine. I am seriously considering going with a Fermenator clamping system, but am open to alternatives!

This is definitely a concern of mine...and the primary reason I haven't committed to a price. I'm going to start with four latches, but I'm prepared to use eight. If it takes more than that...back to the drawing board.

 

[EdWort]

Yuri, you rock man!

Then repeating "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy" while bowing and groveling backwards.

 

[Spyk'd]

...so what you are saying is that these fermentors have about a ten gallon capacity...



...a wet towel will not be sufficient to cool the ambient + fermenting heat temps that are coming your way.



Prove me wrong and provide a cheap and efficient method of cooling and I will buy a couple/few.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

...so what you are saying is that these fermentors have about a ten gallon capacity...

...a wet towel will not be sufficient to cool the ambient + fermenting heat temps that are coming your way.

Wow...guess I have to take the good with the bad! But I certainly open myself to criticism by posting here, so fire away!

These are 21 gallon hoppers, so a very pessimistic max volume estimate is 15 gallons.

As for cheap cooling - I can't guarantee that a towel will do it. I think it's possible that you could rig a few wet towels with some clothespins to effectively cool the fermenter 5-10 degrees, but you're right, I'm not sure.

My plan is to build an outdoor brew closet just wide/deep enough to hold the fermenter on the top shelf with brew supplies underneath. I'll insulate it and use a $50 window air conditioner (new on eBay) for cooling. When the outdoor temps get colder, I'll use a small heating element to raise the temperature appropriately. For my investment thus far, that seems cheap and efficient.

 

[DrewsBrews]

This is definitely a concern of mine...and the primary reason I haven't committed to a price. I'm going to start with four latches, but I'm prepared to use eight. If it takes more than that...back to the drawing board.

Seems to me that you could get away with a minimal number of latches if you could find a way to evenly distribute the clamping pressure. The lid appears to be relatively thin. What about welding a ring of thicker stainless to the lid around the edge?

I'll try to explain the example I see in my mind. Take a piece of SS flat bar, something around 3/4 to 1 inch wide and up to 3/16 thick (although 1/8 inch thick would probably be enough). Mold it to the general diameter of the lid (visualize rolling it around a barrel). Then weld it to the lip of the lid. You've effectively stabilized the edge of the lid so that four, or maybe even three clamps would crank the lid down tightly all the way around.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Seems to me that you could get away with a minimal number of latches if you could find a way to evenly distribute the clamping pressure. The lid appears to be relatively thin. What about welding a ring of thicker stainless to the lid around the edge?

Seems you may have just come up with the intermediate step between trying four clamps and going right to eight if four don't do it. Thanks!

 

[DrewsBrews]

Seems you may have just come up with the intermediate step between trying four clamps and going right to eight if four don't do it. Thanks!

I've been toying with the idea of making one or two of my own (been asking Brewpastor about his too).

I'll be watching the thread and picking your brain as you complete the project. I'm especially interested in how you're going to do the rotating racking arm.

 

[Todd]

I've been toying with the idea of making one or two of my own (been asking Brewpastor about his too).

I'll be watching the thread and picking your brain as you complete the project. I'm especially interested in how you're going to do the rotating racking arm.

I'm in the same boat, planning out my own future projects.

Could you weld the flat bar stock on the inside in a square patern? That should help make the lid more rigid.

How much pressure is this going to need to work?

 

[Hopfan]

Sorry, but I'm still new to all this. What is the advantage to a conical fermenter?

 

[Todd]

Sorry, but I'm still new to all this. What is the advantage to a conical fermenter?

Well the biggest is probably size. Splitting a large batch up between buckets could suck. Plus there is no need to transfer.

There are some downsides. The size, it is harder to cool a large fermentor.