Discussion on malty German beers

[TheMadKing]

That’s about 4 times the recommended amount. You added quite a bit of zinc and additional sulfate.

I would guess that the metallic flavor may be coming from the levels of manganese contributed by overdosing the yeast nutrient. IIRC, 1/2 tsp per 5 gallons gives 0.5 ppm Mn, and 1 ppm is the taste threshold. So at close to 4 times the recommended dose, you may very likely be getting the metallic flavor of manganese.

The recommended dose is 1 teaspoon per gallon as per the instructions on the bottle. It is BSG yeast nutrient, diammonium phosphate intended for wine.

That seemed high to me so I looked it up and most people use 1-2 teaspoons for a 5 gallon batch of beer so I followed those recommendations.

 

[TheMadKing]

The recommended dose is 1 teaspoon per gallon as per the instructions on the bottle. It is BSG yeast nutrient, diammonium phosphate intended for wine.

That seemed high to me so I looked it up and most people use 1-2 teaspoons for a 5 gallon batch of beer so I followed those recommendations.

 

[Big Monk]

The recommended dose is 1 teaspoon per gallon as per the instructions on the bottle. It is BSG yeast nutrient, diammonium phosphate intended for wine.

That seemed high to me so I looked it up and most people use 1-2 teaspoons for a 5 gallon batch of beer so I followed those recommendations.

I thought you were using Wyeast. So what I mentioned doesn’t apply.

 

[dmtaylor]

Magnesium is nasty. Epsom. Potassium ain't any better either.

 

[Bilsch]

Magnesium is nasty. Epsom. Potassium ain't any better either.

Like most things in this world it comes down to how much. But more importantly.. what does that have to do with anything in this thread?

 

[Big Monk]

Like most things in this world it comes down to how much. But more importantly.. what does that have to do with anything in this thread?

I think he was just referring to the ingredients in the yeast nutrient shown above.

 

[dmtaylor]

I think he was just referring to the ingredients in the yeast nutrient shown above.

Indeed.

 

[Big Monk]

Indeed.

Just when I think you couldn’t say, do, or be someone I disagree with more, you do something like this.........




.........and TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!

 

[Vale71]

Like most things in this world it comes down to how much. But more importantly.. what does that have to do with anything in this thread?

I think that ship sailed a hundred posts ago...

 

[TheMadKing]

Magnesium is nasty. Epsom. Potassium ain't any better either.

The dose makes the poison

I have used Epsom for a brewing salt addition with no ill effects, though i don't know what my ppm are from this.

I pitched 450 billion cells of yeast so if that's the issue, hopefully the yeast can metabolize most of it and drop out. I'm going to give it at least another week to finish attenuating.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Does that mean you are not spunding then?

 

[TheMadKing]

Does that mean you are not spunding then?

Correct, I'm just letting it finish the last few gravity points in the keg under pressure.

I did a closed transfer into a liquid purged keg.

I'll be getting a spunding valve as a stocking stuffer.

 

[Bilsch]

Agreed. I use between 5-15 ppm of magnesium as the sulfate or chloride, depending on the water I'm after, for every batch of beer. Saying that Mg is nasty does a disservice to those wishing to understand more about water chemistry for brewing.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

All I really brew are Trappist ales with 3787, 1214, or 1762. I only use Weyermann. For it's not necessarily a German thing but the fact that i like thier malts over other maltsters.

I use Weyermann for German lagers and like some swear by processes, I think the barley makes a huge difference. I have tried other varieties and where others were just good, Barke to me is great. I never got that deep, rich, pretzel aroma from any other grain. Honestly if I could bottle that aroma, that would likely be the beer I am targeting. My Helles was better than previous attempts and I just kegged an Oktoberfest made with Barke and it is outstanding. And that was tasting a flat beer. After it is carbed I am sure it will be a pleaser.

To be fair, I like Swaen Pilsner but I use it only for Belgians where the yeast esters make the beer stand out. I don't perceive it to be pretzel-y or any of the toasty, bready flavors of Weyermann.

 

[TheMadKing]

Lodo attempt number 2 is underway. I simplified my process to really make sure I'm getting the Lodo aspects, including a single infusion mash and no sparge. It's a pilsner so no mineral additions other than lactic acid and sauermaltz for mash acidification.

We'll see how it goes

 

[schematix]

Lodo attempt number 2 is underway. I simplified my process to really make sure I'm getting the Lodo aspects, including a single infusion mash and no sparge. It's a pilsner so no mineral additions other than lactic acid and sauermaltz for mash acidification.

We'll see how it goes

Good luck! Make sure to taste a mash sample.

 

[TheMadKing]

Good luck! Make sure to taste a mash sample.

Just did, nothing very obviously different about it from what I can tell. If it is different from my normal mashes it's not by much

 

[schematix]

Just did, nothing very obviously different about it from what I can tell. If it is different from my normal mashes it's not by much

How far into the mash are you? How aromatic is the mash?

 

[TheMadKing]

How far into the mash are you? How aromatic is the mash?

40 minutes in, and it still smells like a mash.. Maybe very slightly less than normal but it's slight enough that it could be in my head without a direct side by side comparison.

 

[schematix]

40 minutes in, and it still smells like a mash.. Maybe very slightly less than normal but it's slight enough that it could be in my head without a direct side by side comparison.

Hate to tell you but the mash smell is a dead give away whether or not you are successful or not. It should be nearly imperceptible. If you smell it, those are the volatile compounds leaving the wort rather than staying.

I can only smell mine when i put my nose up to withing about 4-6" of it. Compare that to pre-low oxygen the aroma used to smell the brew area and eventually fill up the whole house.

Are you pre-boiling the water for 5+ minutes and using the sulfites?

 

[TheMadKing]

Hate to tell you but the mash smell is a dead give away whether or not you are successful or not. It should be nearly imperceptible. If you smell it, those are the volatile compounds leaving the wort rather than staying.

I can only smell mine when i put my nose up to withing about 4-6" of it. Compare that to pre-low oxygen the aroma used to smell the brew area and eventually fill up the whole house.

Are you pre-boiling the water for 5+ minutes and using the sulfites?

Yep to both

And my mash has never been that aromatic... I can't normally smell it unless I take the lid off

 

[TheMadKing]

Boil was foaming more than normal and MIGHT smell slightly sweeter, but not different enough to really trust that it's not in my head. Confirmation bias is powerful

 

[Die_Beerery]

I don’t know if it’s been said in the 30 pages. Do you taste fresh lingering grain in fresh European examples? If you don’t this will be a fruitless effort.


Also confirmation bias works both ways.

 

[schematix]

When you get the low oxygen process right on the hot side you know it. It’s not subtle and it’s very different from standard methods. Nearly 0 mash aroma and your wort samples will have an unusually pleasant sweetness to them although with other qualities depending upon the grain bill.

Even if you didn’t get it 100% this time stick with it. At least do good cold side process for practice. Make some changes and try again. No one gets it all right until after a few times.

 

[TheMadKing]

I don’t know if it’s been said in the 30 pages. Do you taste fresh lingering grain in fresh European examples? If you don’t this will be a fruitless effort.


Also confirmation bias works both ways.

I taste fresh grain in most malty beers.

I'm also well aware that it works both ways. The cure for confirmation bias is not to confirm anything without objective factual evidence. My senses (or anyone's) cannot provide that without a reference standard, otherwise they are working from memory and will be flawed unless the difference is so stark as to be unmistakable.

The only thing this exercise has shown me is that the difference is not that stark with my process and I therefore cannot trust my own senses to tell me whether this process works or not without a reference point other than my own memory.

Edit: my bias is definitely leaning back toward more conventional brewing at this point since nothing was starkly different to my memories, though I can easily see how someone could convince themselves that it was.

I'm going to do a side by side brew with a friend in the near future, me doing Lodo and him doing standard and see if I can notice anything.

Honestly the process is not difficult and there's not much to screw up. My main complaint at this point is that I may be adding an unnecessary salt to my beers, and that it almost doubles my propane and chiller water usage.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I still feel we are not on the same page with regards to “the flavor”. Can you elaborate on most malty beers? I can only taste the elusive flavor in continental beers, and maybe like .5% of beers produced here. This is regardless of maltiness. They have to be a low oxygen brewhouse on the hot side to have it. Which basically eliminates 99% of breweries in the us. So the comment of malty beers perplexes me. Regardless of style almost all US produced beers do not exhibit this flavor. Infact they display muted malt flavor and aroma, and color indicative of HSA.

 

[TheMadKing]

I still feel we are not on the same page with regards to “the flavor”. Can you elaborate on most malty beers? I can only taste the elusive flavor in continental beers, and maybe like .5% of beers produced here. This is regardless of maltiness. They have to be a low oxygen brewhouse on the hot side to have it. Which basically eliminates 99% of breweries in the us. So the comment of malty beers perplexes me. Regardless of style almost all US produced beers do not exhibit this flavor. Infact they display muted malt flavor and aroma, and color indicative of HSA.

There is no "the flavor".. It's the taste of malted barley plain and simple. Yes some beers that have been oxidized tend to have a flatter flavor but it's still there.

The word to describe the flavor is malty. It is not sweet, it is not grain, it is malty. It's the taste that you get when you chew a piece of malted barley with most of the sugary sweetness removed by the yeast.

I agree that oxygen is 100% detrimental to this flavor, but it exists in all beers regardless of style because beers are made with malt. The ability for that flavor to shine through is the only thing the brewer can control. A combination of many factors can be manipulated in regards to the flavor of the malt including staling, balance, grain quality, roast, pH, etc. but there is no special malt flavor that only exists in some beers (excluding differences in roast), but perhaps there is a higher taste threshold for it in some.

 

[Die_Beerery]

The way you describe this, and with your findings to this point. I really want to say we are not on the same page. However I have been at this for nearly 5 years debating with folks. I have ran into enough people that will continue to argue their point. I realize you are one of these, and by all means that cool and totally ok. I however dont have the time and or patience at this point in my life to try and prove/disprove/convince folks of anything anymore.

So to that I say Cool! I hope you find what you are after!

Prost.

 

[schematix]

The way you describe this, and with your findings to this point. I really want to say we are not on the same page. However I have been at this for nearly 5 years debating with folks. I have ran into enough people that will continue to argue their point. I realize you are one of these, and by all means that cool and totally ok. I however dont have the time and or patience at this point in my life to try and prove/disprove/convince folks of anything anymore.

So to that I say Cool! I hope you find what you are after!

Prost.

Yep this sounds like either
1. Continued trolling
2. Someone who hasn’t executed the process even though they claim they have.
3. Someone who doesn’t have a palette capable of making the distinction.

Could be a bit of all 3.

Whatever makes the brewer happy though.

On a semi related subject, my family thinks I’m crazy because I can taste the difference between grain fed and grass fed beef. They think I’m just picky. Truth be told it’s because I did some side by side tastings and learned what the difference was. Before that day I had tasted the difference but had no clue what I was tasting because I hadn’t been educated. Point is even if you can taste the difference sometimes you need some training to *know* the difference.

 

[TheMadKing]

The complete rejection of the very possibility that this process isn't perfect is laughable.

So anyway back to reality where humans with humility admit the possibility that they can be wrong:

I will continue this process for a few more batches, I will redouble my efforts to educate myself on this nameless flavor that isn't present in 99% of beers. I will continue reporting back any discernible differences that I perceive with my inferior subhuman palette (mockery aside, my palette is actually pretty good though and I'm currently training to become a beer judge, including sensory training). And I will continue to look for objective evidence of the effects of this process rather than subjective second hand sensory evidence.